Stansted need to do better

[Flingingwings]

Perhaps one of the transit differences between Luton and Stansted might be the provision of a designated route at Luton

FWIW I've never had a problem with Stansted or Luton, and on many occasions they've actively gone out of their way to make my life easier

Guess you cannot please all of the people all of the time

[Fuji Abound]

FW

Ah yes, but I think you rotary guys get special priviliges.

[Flingingwings]

And rightly so me thinks

But the Luton lane is not limited to just rotary.

[Fuji Abound]

Absolutely.

Mind you never had a problem with Luton myself either - they are excellent and ever heplful having.

Interested that your priviliges also get you through Stansted - now that is a special trick.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by slim_slag

A PPL does not have a right to enter Class D airspace because your aircraft rating is a privilege which is entirely at the mercy of the CAA or whoever ...

On that basis the CAT driver with his ATPL does not have a right to enter, nor does the AOC holder who is operating the aircraft as all of these are privileges that are at the mercy of regulators. Of course only acting through due legal process to remove said privileges.
The thread has also moved into a fairly negative area rather than a potentially useful exchange of views on
1 - Do some ATC units have better processes/capabilities for handling transits (and are there ideas from other parts of the world that could increase capacity, reduce work load and not materially change safety)
2 - Do some ATC management teams staff more accurately (not necessarily better or worse) to meet real demand
3 - Are there latent priority/'attitude' differences that result in individual controllers, managers, units having a different approach to 1 and 2

[DFC]

I don't remember the last time I saw Stansted or Essex listed on the CFMU regulation list when it wasn't for fog or wip or an incident.

I don't think that it is a reguar place where flow is applied to the airspace.
Even Heathrow is rarely regulated for the whole day.

If one calls for a transit and is told to standby and the controller forgetts about you while you fly round the zone then most definitely file it as being denied a transit you could also quite rightly report that the controller did not get back to you in a reasonable time which they are rquired to do even if it is simply to tell you there is no chance of a transit.

Regards,

DFC

[slim_slag]

Originally Posted by mm_flynn

On that basis the CAT driver with his ATPL does not have a right to enter.....

Yep, that's correct, though he will have been cleared to enter some time before. The closest thing to a 'right' the ATPL or PPL has is to declare an emergency and enter - but even that's a privilege.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. So do as DFC suggests and play it nicely.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by slim_slag

Originally Posted by mm_flynn

On that basis the CAT driver with his ATPL does not have a right to enter.....

Yep, that's correct, though he will have been cleared to enter some time before.

Which is fine, everyone accesses the airspace on the same basis. However, it does rankle to have access described in terms of sweets dolled out at ATC's discretion, rather than various legitimate users who are organised by ATC to get maximum use out of airspace and runway capacity, safely.

Which is where the thread started - Does Stansted do this as well as they can/should! And possibly can we learn something so as to not p!ss in each other's pots.

[slim_slag]

No, I don't think we would ever get access on equal basis. You don't even get that in the States.

In the States, AOPA works in two main ways.

1) Behind the scenes negotiation using terms like 'shared' access. Note, not equal access, 'shared'. It's close but not the same.
2) Donations to targetted politicians re-election fund.

US AOPA don't go around pissing people off telling them that these spoilt private pilots with too much money and their noisy toys have 'rights'. They work behind the scenes. Negotiate and compromise. They have even compromised on the new FAA funding legislation, a little....

What need to happen is some controllers are reminded that GA pilots are customers too.

[PPRuNe Radar]

I don't remember the last time I saw Stansted or Essex listed on the CFMU regulation list when it wasn't for fog or wip or an incident.

I don't think that it is a reguar place where flow is applied to the airspace.
Even Heathrow is rarely regulated for the whole day.

You don't need regulations to demonstrate you are at capacity. Flow managers can use a variety of techniques which allow volumes of airspace to operate at or above capacity without anyone on a flight deck ever being any the wiser. These techniques can be tactical or strategic and generally would not involve light aircraft in any case.

On that basis the CAT driver with his ATPL does not have a right to enter, nor does the AOC holder who is operating the aircraft as all of these are privileges that are at the mercy of regulators.

The CAT will have filed a full flight plan, and provided the pilot remains in Controlled Airspace for the whole flight and thus doesn't require a join then the clearance granted at the departure airport is good all the way to destination. This is regardless of the fact that different ATC units are responsible for different parts of the route, the philosophy being that the profile of the aircraft will be co-ordinated ahead of it's passage. Clearance limit points might be issued along the way, or holding, but in the event of radio failure the pilot (and ATC) know what to expect. As they're scheduled customers of the destination airfield, they are unlikely to be refused entry in any case.

VFR GA could quite legitimately file a full VFR flight plan for a route totally within Controlled Airspace (e.g from Edinburgh to Glasgow) and they'd be treated the same as the CAT flight with a clearance and co-ordination taking place automatically.

VFR flights could also file VFR flight plans with transit units along the way if they choose to. Whether this will help is debateable since many pilots don't know how to address them correctly anyway, and many ATC units won't do anything with them even if they are received.

Stansted has had a reputation for many years of being very hard to get a transit clearance from. The problem is that much of it is anecdotal and perhaps seen as people just bumping their gums. What the CAA are interested in are factual reports which detail the refusal (date, time, details, etc) which they can then discuss with the ATC provider. As I said earlier, sometimes the provider can provide a valid excuse which the CAA accept. Sometimes they can't. What the CAA can't act on is a general opinion, either on an internet website or other forums, unless there is reported evidence which they can investigate.

The ball is firmly in the court of GA pilots who have been refused a transit.

[Fuji Abound]

PR

You make some excellent points.

Anecdotal evidence, particularly when it is frequent, usually has some substance and often more than the anecdotal evidence alone would suggest.

Pilots dont like having to file (me included). If I were Stansted I would want to do something about it, but you are correct, the answer is to file so the CAA can judge the full extent of the problem.

Your comments on CAT on a flight plan are totally valid. Never the less there is often a regrettable distinction between CAT on a FP and GA on a FP in terms of when they are "dumped" outside the system.

SS

Whilst you may not have been intending to imply that AOPA UK "pisses people off with rich boys toys" to be fair to AOPA UK I have never known them to take this approach (and I am not know for my support of AOPA UK).

[WorkingHard]

SS with "these spoilt private pilots with too much money and their noisy toys have 'rights'. " you are well out of order Sir. GA is NOT repeat NOT rich private pilots at all. If you think that is a fair definition then please 1) look up the correct definition and 2) if you have any thing to do with aviation please retire gracefully.

[zkdli]

Please help me understand something. Stansted is as busy and at times busier than Gatwick. The airspace is not particularly large in the scheme of things, being only about five miles either side of the approach lanes and from ground level up to about ten miles out in to the approach. why is it necessary to fly through it rather than around it.
From where I am looking on the maps, the only sort of denied transit that would cause a big detour is for aircraft routing nw/se or se/nw. Are there really that many routes in those directions?

[126.825]

and something else.....

just for your information....... those controllers on essex (stansted) that "cant be bothered" to let you transit compared to those nice controllers at Luton that go out their way to be helpfull.....


many of them are one in the same........they do Luton and Essex, so maybe your not getting a transit because they are busy or just about to be.........

[TractorBoy]

Originally Posted by zkdli

Please help me understand something. Stansted is as busy and at times busier than Gatwick. The airspace is not particularly large in the scheme of things, being only about five miles either side of the approach lanes and from ground level up to about ten miles out in to the approach. why is it necessary to fly through it rather than around it.
From where I am looking on the maps, the only sort of denied transit that would cause a big detour is for aircraft routing nw/se or se/nw. Are there really that many routes in those directions?

I fly from Stapleford, and I currently fall into to the limited radius category due to hiring costs etc. That means that all those nice airfields to the north (Duxford, Cambridge etc) are tantalisingly out of range for me at the mo, due to lack of transit. Just have to save up, I suppose. Plus I really don't fancy the A10 corridor that seems to be busier than the M25 on a Good Friday.....

[slim_slag]

Originally Posted by WorkingHard

SS .... you are well out of order Sir. GA is NOT repeat NOT rich private pilots at all

What I said was US AOPA don't go around pissing people off telling them that these spoilt private pilots with too much money and their noisy toys have 'rights' So what do I mean by that?

Well, it's a perception of many and it will be used against GA for the slightest reason. When Kennedy Jr crashed there were newspaper articles calling private pilots the 'NRA of the air' and that's a negative connotation that needs to be avoided.

One way to avoid it is to lobby quietly and behind the scenes. Don't get on your soap box and demand your 'rights' - especially when what you are demanding isn't a right at all. If you read the context of the offending sentence in my posts and then in the context of the thread you might see what I mean.

Though I do accept it could read the way you did, so hope I have cleared that up.

What do you do with people who fly over the village because it is their 'right' to do so, and buggers it up for the rest of us when the council gets complaints and starts investigating? Hopefully you slap these people down....

Just for interest, my opinion is that there is a sizeable minority of GA pilots who fit my description, but the vast majority are decent and hard working people enjoying a hobby that is becoming less politically correct every day.

So we need lobbyists to fight our corner, but as I also said - you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. So do as DFC says, and log every refusal and let the more diplomatic people take that up with the authorities. I would not be good at that, and neither would other people who have posted on this thread. At least I admit it

[Roffa]

126.825 makes a good point there (unlike some of his earlier ones ) and that is the fact that many/most of the Essex (stop calling it Stansted, it's Essex Radar you're talking about) controllers are multi-valid holding two out of, and sometimes all three, Essex, Luton and Gatwick validations.

So why are the same people so praised for offering transits at Luton and Gatwick yet castigated for being the most unhelpful atcos on the planet when doing Essex?

I suspect it's because out of the three validations the busiest and most complicated position is Essex Radar. All the other approach positions in the room (including Heathrow and with the possible exception of Thames) are a bit of breeze compared to the current crappy airspace design and volume of traffic that Essex have to deal with*. The workload even in routine traffic situations is quite high so there's little scope for providing ATSOCAS and it may go some way to explaining if not excusing why transits are sometimes declined.

Anyway, if you really believe Essex are routinely pathetic and unhelpful, instead of tub thumping on an internet forum that won't actually achieve anything constructive do start reporting specific instances to the CAA and then you might actually achieve a change if indeed a change is necessary.

* this description also applies to Thames Radar.

[WorkingHard]

SS - Thanks for the explanation, no harm done. Just as a matter of interest most of my flying is for business purposes where time (and fuel) really is money. I plan a route as direct as possible but avoiding a number of units based on prior experience, Essex being one. IF I get a more direct route then that is a bonus, I prefer not to speak of "rights" per se but I also beleive some units believe they "own" the bit of sky they watch over and need to be re-educated. In just the same way some years ago there was the odd military controller who would issue instructions to civilian aircraft in the open FIR and they had to be re-trained.

[Fuji Abound]

So why are the same people so praised for offering transits at Luton and Gatwick yet castigated for being the most unhelpful atcos on the planet when doing Essex?

Roffa - you appear to have made this personal.

My comments were never a criticism of individual ATCOs - I have said on many occasions you are a great bunch.

My issue is with Stansted (or Essex radar if the name is important).

I fully understand that Essex radar has ATCOs who have doubtless worked all over the world (well all over the UK at least).

The issue is that for some reason when they get to Essex they are usually less than helpful. I dont know why - hence the question.

Is Essex busier than most - yes, but refusals dont seem to relate only to times when they are busy.

Is the airspace more difficult to manage than most - well yes, maybe.

Does that excuse poor R/T? IMO - no.

Once again, it is not specifically the issue of whether or not zone transits are granted, but the way in which they are managed.

Once again, give the aircraft a squawk on first call up, unless you have no intention of giving a transit.

In short, I still dont get what is so difficult about doing so. Surely it helps us all - unless of course as I have said before (with my usual conspiracy hat on) the object is to lull us into thinking a transit will be given when infact it ends up not being given, or, is given so late, as to be a waste of time.

If you are not going to be able to give a transit, all I ask is own up straight away, tell us so, and let us navigate accordingly.

It is not rocket science - is it?

In short you are there to manage the airspace efficiently - that is what you get paid to do. You are not managing the airspace efficiently if you leave users having to guess their routing and having to skirt close to the boundary of the zone with minimium seperation from in bound CAT.

If I am going to transit under inbound CAT at the top of class G I make a point of telling the controller because it is a good working partnership - he knows where I am and not going to do anything silly and visa versa. Of course I could simply not bother - no squawk, no communication. I know, I know poor airmanship - perhaps just as poor as ATCOs who cant tell me within reasonable time whether a transit will be approved or not!

It is not personal, I am sure many of the ATCOs are out the same school, but there is something going on at Essex that I have a feeling is more to do with Essex than the individuals concerned or the individuals concerned are over worked and cant cope with the traffic flow without causing us inconvenience.

[Roffa]

I'm not taking anything personally, as I said I don't do Essex so have no axe to grind with you there and it wasn't me that used phrases such as pathetic and unhelpful which if I were an Essex atco wouldn't actually encourage me to engage with you.

Anyway, as I said, despite you perhaps suffering a bit of a misconception that you can change things just by general and anonymous posting on PPRuNe, it's unlikely you will.

On the other hand, if you do actually want to achieve something, feel free to PM me with who you are, where you are and some more specific details about your complaint or what you'd like to see happen and why and I'll put you in direct touch with someone at Terminal Control who is actually able to do something about it.

Can't do fairer than that now, can I?