Future of IMC rating?
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Dublin pilot, I don't know how many times you have crossed the alps over the top, but trust me there are not many places to divert to!!!
SteveiB, So what happens in the winter when the days are very short? Do you not fly IFR? What happens to currency? The point of an IR is basically an all weather day or night rating.
Fuji. I think you and I are never going to agree on this as I am not sure we have a common terms of reference. I am not talking about SID's and STAR's with reference to IMCR pilots being able to fly them. I am reflecting on the fact that traffic departing on them is kept well clear from traffic attempting a zone transit. I am also making the point that there are actually very few pilots doing real IFR and by real IFR I mean actually going any distance truly IFR with a let down at either end. It is mostly VFR pilots having chance encounters with cloud and carrying on. Trust me when I tell you on an average days flying for me under IFR the radio is very quiet.
AOPA and PPL/IR understand perfectly well the needs of pilots, those of use who volunteer our time to do the stuff are real pilots just like yourself and I actually find your view that we do not understand the needs offensive. We have not been take in by anything, we have sat down and listened to very balanced arguments and counteracted them with our own. All of this type of work is a matter of balance. In fact if you feel you can represent GA better please feel free to replace me.
But I will issue a challenge to you. Come on an airways flight with me, you can fly the entire trip under IFR including the SID's and STAR's (I am an IRI) and we can review hoe adequately you feel your IMCR prepared you for the task. It will cost you nothing other than a lunch and some genuine feedback.
SteveiB, So what happens in the winter when the days are very short? Do you not fly IFR? What happens to currency? The point of an IR is basically an all weather day or night rating.
Fuji. I think you and I are never going to agree on this as I am not sure we have a common terms of reference. I am not talking about SID's and STAR's with reference to IMCR pilots being able to fly them. I am reflecting on the fact that traffic departing on them is kept well clear from traffic attempting a zone transit. I am also making the point that there are actually very few pilots doing real IFR and by real IFR I mean actually going any distance truly IFR with a let down at either end. It is mostly VFR pilots having chance encounters with cloud and carrying on. Trust me when I tell you on an average days flying for me under IFR the radio is very quiet.
AOPA and PPL/IR understand perfectly well the needs of pilots, those of use who volunteer our time to do the stuff are real pilots just like yourself and I actually find your view that we do not understand the needs offensive. We have not been take in by anything, we have sat down and listened to very balanced arguments and counteracted them with our own. All of this type of work is a matter of balance. In fact if you feel you can represent GA better please feel free to replace me.
But I will issue a challenge to you. Come on an airways flight with me, you can fly the entire trip under IFR including the SID's and STAR's (I am an IRI) and we can review hoe adequately you feel your IMCR prepared you for the task. It will cost you nothing other than a lunch and some genuine feedback.
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Bose-X
When I used the term "IR Lite" what I meant was a cut down version of the IR, like the FAA IR without all the uneccessary theory that I as a PPL/IR wouldn't need.
I am lucky, I have a DA42, full IFR airways capable. In the UK I use my IMCR like an IR (as much as the law will allow) to actually go places. To be clear for your working group, I don't want to put my DA42 onto the N reg (too much grief) what I want is an accessible IR, like the FAA IR. I haven't got a problem with the 55 hours flight training, I just don't want to learn about how a jet engine works, as interesting as that may be. What I want more than anything is to be able to fly in near Europe and do an instrument approach in IMC if required.
However, I suspect that I am in the minority of being a PPL with a serious IFR aeroplane.
Interestingly, some airports in the UK do ask me to fly a SID. Not something that is taught in the IMC. The book says that IMC rated pilots "would not normally be expected to fly a SID". "Not normally" doesn't mean 'never'.
I hope this all turns out to everybodies satisfaction. However with the JAA experience behind us, I suspect that yet again we will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Sorry, no disrespect to your efforts on the W/G, I've just got this terrible sense of foreboding over getting 27 (?) countries to agree on something whilst I still have my health.
When I used the term "IR Lite" what I meant was a cut down version of the IR, like the FAA IR without all the uneccessary theory that I as a PPL/IR wouldn't need.
I am lucky, I have a DA42, full IFR airways capable. In the UK I use my IMCR like an IR (as much as the law will allow) to actually go places. To be clear for your working group, I don't want to put my DA42 onto the N reg (too much grief) what I want is an accessible IR, like the FAA IR. I haven't got a problem with the 55 hours flight training, I just don't want to learn about how a jet engine works, as interesting as that may be. What I want more than anything is to be able to fly in near Europe and do an instrument approach in IMC if required.
However, I suspect that I am in the minority of being a PPL with a serious IFR aeroplane.
Interestingly, some airports in the UK do ask me to fly a SID. Not something that is taught in the IMC. The book says that IMC rated pilots "would not normally be expected to fly a SID". "Not normally" doesn't mean 'never'.
I hope this all turns out to everybodies satisfaction. However with the JAA experience behind us, I suspect that yet again we will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Sorry, no disrespect to your efforts on the W/G, I've just got this terrible sense of foreboding over getting 27 (?) countries to agree on something whilst I still have my health.
Last edited by Three Yellows; 4th Sep 2007 at 18:04. Reason: spelling, of course.
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However, I suspect that I am in the minority of being a PPL with a serious IFR aeroplane.
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Dublin pilot, I don't know how many times you have crossed the alps over the top, but trust me there are not many places to divert to!!!
I may not have made my point very clear. What I was trying to say is that we presently trust day-VFR only pilots to be able to make a decision based on the fact that they can't fly at night. If they can't be assured of landing before the end of VFR, then they divert. If there are no options for diversion, then they don't take off in the first place.
We turst them to make that decision at present, and we don't seem to have any problems from this.
If we can trust day VFR pilots to make those decisions, why wouldn't we trust them to make the same decision after they have earned an IR?
dp
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Bose, with apologies to others on here whom I'm sure are not in the least interested in issues of colour vision; I'm bothering to respond to you because you appear to be involved in some way in shaping the future of GA in Europe. Something that for selfish reasons I care passionately about.
Why can I not be trusted to exercise my IR during the day only, winter or not? I have little interest in flying a SEP at night anyway.
You will agree that the problem with this industry is that, at regulatory level at least, it appears to operate a policy of exclusion rather than inclusion. Why not learn form the Americans, and find a way to make things work rather than finding reasons why they cannot?
If you're happy with blindly accepting the status quo, why are you bothering to try to change things more widely on the IR fornt?
I can still go and get an FAA IR, probably without even the night restriction as there are further more practical tests available in the States, and fly N reg in Europe. As someone who's new to the game, none of this makes any sense.
Why can I not be trusted to exercise my IR during the day only, winter or not? I have little interest in flying a SEP at night anyway.
You will agree that the problem with this industry is that, at regulatory level at least, it appears to operate a policy of exclusion rather than inclusion. Why not learn form the Americans, and find a way to make things work rather than finding reasons why they cannot?
If you're happy with blindly accepting the status quo, why are you bothering to try to change things more widely on the IR fornt?
I can still go and get an FAA IR, probably without even the night restriction as there are further more practical tests available in the States, and fly N reg in Europe. As someone who's new to the game, none of this makes any sense.
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I am not prepared to accept the status quo which is why I volunteer my time to to try and make change. But neither am I naive enough to think that we can wave a magic wand to change decades of bureaucracy. Like all things in politics we have to change a little at a time to achieve our long term goal.
DP, I am sorry but IFR is a very different beast to VFR. Once you embark on an IFR flight you are committed to the resolution. The pilot does not have the same choices as a VFR pilot. You climb into the airway, it gets dark you look for an alternate, the alternate is below minima, the next alternate is 80 miles away, you are committed and if it gets dark you can't just expect to descend and land. It is not a question of trusting people to make decisions, IFR really is a totally different world and as much I try to find empathy for StevieB's situation I find myself in support of the rules. I have been there and found myself in the situation described above and in European weather it is a very real scenario.
DP, I am sorry but IFR is a very different beast to VFR. Once you embark on an IFR flight you are committed to the resolution. The pilot does not have the same choices as a VFR pilot. You climb into the airway, it gets dark you look for an alternate, the alternate is below minima, the next alternate is 80 miles away, you are committed and if it gets dark you can't just expect to descend and land. It is not a question of trusting people to make decisions, IFR really is a totally different world and as much I try to find empathy for StevieB's situation I find myself in support of the rules. I have been there and found myself in the situation described above and in European weather it is a very real scenario.
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It's clearly pointless my trying to reason with you Bose, and yet I find myself biting.
I've read enough of your posts to see that you regard yourself as some sort of master aviator. This may well be the case.
But even if you are a genuine guru, you are still limited by your fuel endurance and the Newtonian laws. If you cannot reliably plan an IFR flight to be over by a certain time, how do you stop your aircraft from falling from the sky?
In fairness to you, your struggle for a more accesible IR does you credit, whether your motives are alturistic or not. But your views on this subject are bo**ocks my friend.
I've read enough of your posts to see that you regard yourself as some sort of master aviator. This may well be the case.
But even if you are a genuine guru, you are still limited by your fuel endurance and the Newtonian laws. If you cannot reliably plan an IFR flight to be over by a certain time, how do you stop your aircraft from falling from the sky?
In fairness to you, your struggle for a more accesible IR does you credit, whether your motives are alturistic or not. But your views on this subject are bo**ocks my friend.
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I think you and I are never going to agree on this
I am reflecting on the fact that traffic departing on them is kept well clear from traffic attempting a zone transit.
AOPA and PPL/IR understand perfectly well the needs of pilots, those of use who volunteer our time to do the stuff are real pilots just like yourself and I actually find your view that we do not understand the needs offensive.
I pointed out their web site was hopeless. They have made some improvements.
However:
Look at their main page http://www.aopa.co.uk/
They tell me they have 400,000 members in 50 countries.
AOPA America tell me they have 413,000 pilots in America or two thirds of all pilots in America. (http://www.aopa.org/info/) I guess that means the rest of the world has -13,000 pilots.
Cheap comments aside, I really don’t want to know how many pilots AOPA have worldwide. If I am visiting AOPA UK I want to know how many pilots AOPA UK has, and how many thirds of the UK pilot community they represent - or are they too embarrassed to let on?
I really don’t want to know what’s happening in IAOPA or about tougher carbon targets.
I don’t want cheesy photos.
Compare and contrast with AOPA America. Their front page is full of issues relevant to GA.
.. .. .. And then lets take a look at the news section. There must be something in there about a subject as important enough as proposals to make the IR more accessible .. .. .. Oh dear, still not a mention.
Come on guys this is part of the image you present to every pilot in the UK who might think about joining. It is a disaster. Do you give me the impression you represent me and are doing something about the host of threats to GA - I don’t think so.
What I do see a lot off is people who think they could do an IR but don't really want to hiding behind what they see as onerous requirements. In fact the IR is not difficult to do at all, even in it's current format. There are too many old wives tales and myths spread about around it.
Take the afore comment.
As I said before I don’t think this is the view of most pilots. If that were the case tell me why it is that there are more than 100 FAA private instrument rated pilots in Europe for every 1 European IR holder.
It is those pilots who usually own their own aircraft and are highly motivated and intelligent people that should be offended when each one of them has assessed the pros and cons of gaining an FAA IR compared with a European IR and in spite of the extra costs of having to operate their aircraft on the N reg never the less feel compelled to take that route.
Old wives tales and myths - I doubt it very much.
No - if AOPA believe they understand the views of GA and yet believe pilots take the FAA IR route becasue of myths and old wives tales and think they have it horribly wrong.
But I will issue a challenge to you. Come on an airways flight with me, you can fly the entire trip under IFR including the SID's and STAR's (I am an IRI) and we can review hoe adequately you feel your IMCR prepared you for the task. It will cost you nothing other than a lunch and some genuine feedback.
Sadly, I dont think anything of substance will change - but I really hope I am wrong.
However, I am a huge supporter of the IMCR and for that reason if it is axed I shall do something about it.
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StevieB. I do not consider myself a guru at anything, I am however prepared to practice to get things right and as a result have put a lot of practice in. When you have equalled my practice then feel free to call what I say bollox. Just because I am not saying what you want to hear does not make it any less a statement of the situation as it stands. To answer your question on fuel endurance etc which is obviously based on a total lack of understanding of IFR rules. You can quite easily find yourself still airborne at night and still have more than enough fuel if you are following IFR rules. Get an IR and then accuse me of talking bollox.
Fuji. I suggest you start now because the IMCR IS under threat. Join AOPA and come and assist me on the next round of talks because when the IMCR goes you will be able to do NOTHING after the fact......
Fuji. I suggest you start now because the IMCR IS under threat. Join AOPA and come and assist me on the next round of talks because when the IMCR goes you will be able to do NOTHING after the fact......
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I'm of course willing to accept that I know next to nothing about the IFRs at this stage of my experience.
I'm still not sure you understood what I was saying though. If the IFRs, whatever they may say, state that I must have, say, 4 hours fuel endurance, and I take off four hours before night; then I'm going to arrive before nightfall. One way or the other.
It seems to work fine in the States. As a (self appointed?) representative of GA, I would have thought you would at least be interested in my perspective. On the other hand, if I didn't have colour problems I probably wouldn't give a toss either!
In less than a month I should have an IMC, and therefore be legal and trustworthy IFR in IMC within UK airspace. With respect, your argument is nonsense. More to the point, you should really be trying to find ways of including people, IMHO.
I'm still not sure you understood what I was saying though. If the IFRs, whatever they may say, state that I must have, say, 4 hours fuel endurance, and I take off four hours before night; then I'm going to arrive before nightfall. One way or the other.
It seems to work fine in the States. As a (self appointed?) representative of GA, I would have thought you would at least be interested in my perspective. On the other hand, if I didn't have colour problems I probably wouldn't give a toss either!
In less than a month I should have an IMC, and therefore be legal and trustworthy IFR in IMC within UK airspace. With respect, your argument is nonsense. More to the point, you should really be trying to find ways of including people, IMHO.
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I am not going to get into a fight with you over this SteveiB. I am not a self appointed representative of GA. I was asked to do it. Go out get yourself some real experience of flying and the regulation that surround it then volunteer your services we always need more volunteers. I am prepared to discuss but not be abused by someone who knows squat all about the real world that drives aviation.
And I am sorry that you have a what is fairly unique condition and I take on board your desires to do more. However I would be lying if I told you we could do anything about it. The mountain will not move just because your view of it is not good enough.
AOPA and PPL/IR (both organizations you should be joining if you want to fly and be an Instrument pilot) try to represent the interests of the majority and through a team of volunteers work tirelessly towards this. There are always going to be a minority that are not going to get there way.
Your view of flight planning is way to simplistic and if that is what you are being taught in your IMC then it just reinforces what I have been saying about the poor standard of the average IMCR.
Right I am off to fly to Rosserow and play golf...
And I am sorry that you have a what is fairly unique condition and I take on board your desires to do more. However I would be lying if I told you we could do anything about it. The mountain will not move just because your view of it is not good enough.
AOPA and PPL/IR (both organizations you should be joining if you want to fly and be an Instrument pilot) try to represent the interests of the majority and through a team of volunteers work tirelessly towards this. There are always going to be a minority that are not going to get there way.
Your view of flight planning is way to simplistic and if that is what you are being taught in your IMC then it just reinforces what I have been saying about the poor standard of the average IMCR.
Right I am off to fly to Rosserow and play golf...
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Right I am off to fly to Rosserow and play golf...
I have had a look at the Rosserow web site - it looks lovelly.
Do they have a strip?
PS Whilst we may not agree on some issues, once again I take my hat off to you for your efforts. At times you must wonder if it is worth the hassle but I think the fact that pilots take such an interest in what you are trying to achieve proves it is very worth while.
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Humble perspective
I first got an IMC rating 10 years ago and renewed it only once since.
Although I regret feeling this way, I really do, I can see some sense in the rating being retired...certainly given my experience anyway.
I really enjoyed doing the training and it definately does sharpen your skills, but I never really felt sufficient safe to fly IMC solo despite being technically able to do so. I did some ILS approaches in cloud after getting the rating, but I never felt sufficiently equipped to undertake regular IMC trips in bad weather. The risk/benefit balance was never positive. In addition I was told numerous times in conversations with experienced aviators that the rating is nothing more that a "get out of trouble" rating and is seen as such by the CAA.
In addition, the flying schools I went to, although excellent in training, left me cold and dry in terms of encouraging/helping me to become a regular IMC aviator. In fact, PPL IMC trips were discretely discouraged in their hire fleet.
Having started the ATPL theory and becoming increasingly aware of how difficult the full IR is, it does leave me wondering just maybe the IMC could be guilty of tempting insufficiently trained/safe inexeperienced pilots into very difficult situations. If I remember correctly (pls correct me otherwise), a newly qualified PPL can go straight into an IMC rating and being flying around in marginal conditions with less than 60hrs under their belt. That does seem worrying.
Its an expensive rating to acquire and to maintain. If you're that commited to instrument flight, and can afford to maintain the skill, surely a full IR is a more appropriate?
Ultimately, I do harbour a degree of dissapointment at the state of the UK private flying scene, which does feed this particular perspective, so I do apologise if I seem negative. It's a shame there isn't a stronger GA club scene here as there is in France/US for example (and less congested airspace too!).
I'm not saying PPL holders should not fly on instruments, I am just of the view that the existing rating probably does need refining in some way. As a training course in its own right it's a great thing...but it is tempting to subscribe to the view that all pilots flying in IMC should be trained to the same level regardless of the number of people sitting inside their aeroplane.
However, my mind is still open on this and would be very interested in continuing to read other perspectives.
Although I regret feeling this way, I really do, I can see some sense in the rating being retired...certainly given my experience anyway.
I really enjoyed doing the training and it definately does sharpen your skills, but I never really felt sufficient safe to fly IMC solo despite being technically able to do so. I did some ILS approaches in cloud after getting the rating, but I never felt sufficiently equipped to undertake regular IMC trips in bad weather. The risk/benefit balance was never positive. In addition I was told numerous times in conversations with experienced aviators that the rating is nothing more that a "get out of trouble" rating and is seen as such by the CAA.
In addition, the flying schools I went to, although excellent in training, left me cold and dry in terms of encouraging/helping me to become a regular IMC aviator. In fact, PPL IMC trips were discretely discouraged in their hire fleet.
Having started the ATPL theory and becoming increasingly aware of how difficult the full IR is, it does leave me wondering just maybe the IMC could be guilty of tempting insufficiently trained/safe inexeperienced pilots into very difficult situations. If I remember correctly (pls correct me otherwise), a newly qualified PPL can go straight into an IMC rating and being flying around in marginal conditions with less than 60hrs under their belt. That does seem worrying.
Its an expensive rating to acquire and to maintain. If you're that commited to instrument flight, and can afford to maintain the skill, surely a full IR is a more appropriate?
Ultimately, I do harbour a degree of dissapointment at the state of the UK private flying scene, which does feed this particular perspective, so I do apologise if I seem negative. It's a shame there isn't a stronger GA club scene here as there is in France/US for example (and less congested airspace too!).
I'm not saying PPL holders should not fly on instruments, I am just of the view that the existing rating probably does need refining in some way. As a training course in its own right it's a great thing...but it is tempting to subscribe to the view that all pilots flying in IMC should be trained to the same level regardless of the number of people sitting inside their aeroplane.
However, my mind is still open on this and would be very interested in continuing to read other perspectives.
The Original Foot
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IMC - Use it...
...I have to say I disagree. I have just completed my IMC Training - 90 hrs. I have yet to do the skills test. My view is that the IMC is a cracking qualification. I would suggest it needs a mandatory dual cross country and a solo cross country navigating by instruments, but not necessariy in IMC (I have done this with an instructor and it was good experience).
Hopefully I will pass my test, but I won't feel like flying off and flying around the UK down to minimas, but it is a rating I think I will use and build up my experience with. When I started flying after my ppl, I didn't feel like doing vast cross countires close to CTA, but it is something I have built up to.
I also think we need to recognise that things are getting easier for GA. I now have access to a plane with auto pilot; twin gns430's. Most of the airfields I am likely to want to fly to have Survelance Radar, or there is an alternative nearby suitably equiped.
So I guess I am suggesting I would like to see the IMC Saved/Kept.
Hopefully I will pass my test, but I won't feel like flying off and flying around the UK down to minimas, but it is a rating I think I will use and build up my experience with. When I started flying after my ppl, I didn't feel like doing vast cross countires close to CTA, but it is something I have built up to.
I also think we need to recognise that things are getting easier for GA. I now have access to a plane with auto pilot; twin gns430's. Most of the airfields I am likely to want to fly to have Survelance Radar, or there is an alternative nearby suitably equiped.
So I guess I am suggesting I would like to see the IMC Saved/Kept.
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I'm seriously considering doing the IMC, as based in (non) sunny Aberdeen, we're constantly beset by fog/haze and a layer of low cloud on otherwise fine flying days which makes VFR flight infrequent (at least this summer anyway). Being able to push above it and actually *get* somewhere would be wonderful - I've had many oppertunites to go to Dundee/Inverness/Perth which I've had to cancel as the weather hasn't been VMC and I end up driving instead - the Inverness road in particular is a nightmare - 2.5/3 hours to do 105 miles compared with a 40 min flight in a 172.
So I'd like to use it to actually go places rather than a "get out of trouble" rating.
As previously intimated, if you don't keep it pretty current, it'll go from a "get out of" to a "get into" trouble rating when you try an approach in cloud having not done one for 6 months. I intend using it very regularly.
That said - the IMC or the IR??
I have a young son, I managed to get my PPL completed before the nipper arrived but the thought of me heading off for X weeks to do the full IR (55hrs I believe) would put the wife in a bad mood. Add to that the exam requirements - I don't really have the time or the inclination to sit 7 exams, and I'm not going to go ATPL in the future.
I'm also not going to be flying into any Class A/B airspace unless I'm SLF (or I'm *really* confused about where I am!!!), and based in Aberdeen - I need to fly about 4/5 hours south before I can go to a foreign country, which makes me popping over to Euroland IFR virtually non-existant.
So - the IMC looks like a better fit for what I want to do with it.
25 hours training will be much more wallet friendly (especially in Aberdeen!) given (iirc) that I can't use my group aircraft to train for the inital grant of a licence.
1 exam also sits better with me. Do the IR exams reflect airline/commercial flying rather than GA? The 7 vs 1 seems like quite a difference, but if most IRs are ATPL exam passers anyway, that probably explains it.
So, on balance, the IR exam and hourly requirements seem untenable to someone in my position.
Would I love to have an IR? Absolutely.
Can I afford it? No.
Would I be divorced afterwards? Possibly (unless I planned to go commercial - but that would be financially undesirable for me)
So the IMC -
can I afford it - yes.
Will it let me do what I'd like to? Looks like it.
Now the only sticky wicket is if the IMC is withdrawn in the next few years. However, by that time I'd assume that any future PPL/IR would be easier, on the wallet and theory, to obtain and hopefully there would be a credit from an existing IMCR.
So - I'll go for the IMC in the near future.
Until someone has a timescale for the 'new' IR, with concrete requirements and costs - I can't afford to do the IR anyway...
So I'd like to use it to actually go places rather than a "get out of trouble" rating.
As previously intimated, if you don't keep it pretty current, it'll go from a "get out of" to a "get into" trouble rating when you try an approach in cloud having not done one for 6 months. I intend using it very regularly.
That said - the IMC or the IR??
I have a young son, I managed to get my PPL completed before the nipper arrived but the thought of me heading off for X weeks to do the full IR (55hrs I believe) would put the wife in a bad mood. Add to that the exam requirements - I don't really have the time or the inclination to sit 7 exams, and I'm not going to go ATPL in the future.
I'm also not going to be flying into any Class A/B airspace unless I'm SLF (or I'm *really* confused about where I am!!!), and based in Aberdeen - I need to fly about 4/5 hours south before I can go to a foreign country, which makes me popping over to Euroland IFR virtually non-existant.
So - the IMC looks like a better fit for what I want to do with it.
25 hours training will be much more wallet friendly (especially in Aberdeen!) given (iirc) that I can't use my group aircraft to train for the inital grant of a licence.
1 exam also sits better with me. Do the IR exams reflect airline/commercial flying rather than GA? The 7 vs 1 seems like quite a difference, but if most IRs are ATPL exam passers anyway, that probably explains it.
So, on balance, the IR exam and hourly requirements seem untenable to someone in my position.
Would I love to have an IR? Absolutely.
Can I afford it? No.
Would I be divorced afterwards? Possibly (unless I planned to go commercial - but that would be financially undesirable for me)
So the IMC -
can I afford it - yes.
Will it let me do what I'd like to? Looks like it.
Now the only sticky wicket is if the IMC is withdrawn in the next few years. However, by that time I'd assume that any future PPL/IR would be easier, on the wallet and theory, to obtain and hopefully there would be a credit from an existing IMCR.
So - I'll go for the IMC in the near future.
Until someone has a timescale for the 'new' IR, with concrete requirements and costs - I can't afford to do the IR anyway...
Join Date: Mar 2002
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[QUOTE=bose-x]Get an IR and then accuse me of talking bollox.
[/QYOTE]
You are talking bo11ox.
There have not been any significant unforecasted enroute winds in Europe recently.
If flying any form of crosscountry flight even the student pilot with 32 hours on their skill test are required to provide reasonable accurate eta's and update them if an error is found.
Even if there was an unforecasted wind, a 1 hour late ata should have been obvious from a long way back along the route so even if you were transiting the alps from Austria through Switzerland and onto Nice, you could easily have diverted to a non-alpine aerodrome.
Can you circle to land at Cannes after dark? If not would that not have been something to consider at the planning stage and suitable enroute alternates found?
Why did you fly an ILS at Nice, is the preferred Riviera and other noise abatement arrivals not to your liking?
What were your plans for an engine failure at about the half way stage?
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The problem with AOPA is that they never have people who know enough about what they are dealing with to be able to press the regulator if required.
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Dublin Pilot and stevieb1,
The IR does of course give night flying privileges just like the CPL and thus one needs nornal colour vision. Yes one could have a CPL limited to Day VFR and get round the vision requirements.
However, with the IR, which of course is not type limited. there is another problem.
Imagine an IR holder restricted to day only breaks out at minima from a ILS with just the bare visual requirments over a full CAT 3 approach lighting and runway lighting system.
Undershoot area lights are red, threshold lights are green and touchdown zone lights are white. You are at 200ft descending with only about 300m visibility you have fractions of a second to differentiate the light colours and decide where the threshold and touchdown zone is..........can a colour-blind person make the difference between the red and green lights?
Put it another way....as a Doctor, are you going to sign a piece of paper that they will?
Regards,
DFC
[/QYOTE]
You are talking bo11ox.
There have not been any significant unforecasted enroute winds in Europe recently.
If flying any form of crosscountry flight even the student pilot with 32 hours on their skill test are required to provide reasonable accurate eta's and update them if an error is found.
Even if there was an unforecasted wind, a 1 hour late ata should have been obvious from a long way back along the route so even if you were transiting the alps from Austria through Switzerland and onto Nice, you could easily have diverted to a non-alpine aerodrome.
Can you circle to land at Cannes after dark? If not would that not have been something to consider at the planning stage and suitable enroute alternates found?
Why did you fly an ILS at Nice, is the preferred Riviera and other noise abatement arrivals not to your liking?
What were your plans for an engine failure at about the half way stage?
-------------
The problem with AOPA is that they never have people who know enough about what they are dealing with to be able to press the regulator if required.
-----------
Dublin Pilot and stevieb1,
The IR does of course give night flying privileges just like the CPL and thus one needs nornal colour vision. Yes one could have a CPL limited to Day VFR and get round the vision requirements.
However, with the IR, which of course is not type limited. there is another problem.
Imagine an IR holder restricted to day only breaks out at minima from a ILS with just the bare visual requirments over a full CAT 3 approach lighting and runway lighting system.
Undershoot area lights are red, threshold lights are green and touchdown zone lights are white. You are at 200ft descending with only about 300m visibility you have fractions of a second to differentiate the light colours and decide where the threshold and touchdown zone is..........can a colour-blind person make the difference between the red and green lights?
Put it another way....as a Doctor, are you going to sign a piece of paper that they will?
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Sep 2003
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You know DFC you are so full of **** at times I should not even bother replying to you. But just for the hell of it...............
Un-forecast wind is one that showed on the forecast as being 15kts and ended up being nearer 30kts. 15kts over a near 5hr flight is enough to put you behind schedule. Nice was my diversion and as the weather required an ILS, and ILS was flown after a short delay in the hold. I was not the only aircraft to miss Cannes.
My plans for an engine failure are the same at every stage. Land. My risk acceptance for SEP over hostile terrain is my choice.
How about going flying instead of spewing your endless opinionated ****e.
Un-forecast wind is one that showed on the forecast as being 15kts and ended up being nearer 30kts. 15kts over a near 5hr flight is enough to put you behind schedule. Nice was my diversion and as the weather required an ILS, and ILS was flown after a short delay in the hold. I was not the only aircraft to miss Cannes.
My plans for an engine failure are the same at every stage. Land. My risk acceptance for SEP over hostile terrain is my choice.
How about going flying instead of spewing your endless opinionated ****e.
Upto The Buffers
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Leeds/Bradford
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Not sure "unforecasted" is even a word...
Just for the record, I flew a SID, and an NDB hold on my IMC test. I was trained for both and am glad to have the experience.
DFC - you clearly know absolutely jack f'cking sh!t about colour vision. Trust me, I know plenty. The VAST majority of people who have VCL restrictions are PERFECTLY capable of seeing PAPI lights etc.. The testing employed be JAA is utterly irrelevant, in complete breach of the testing medium manufacturers instructions, and wide-open to a crushing legal challenge (watch this space).
Just for the record, I flew a SID, and an NDB hold on my IMC test. I was trained for both and am glad to have the experience.
DFC - you clearly know absolutely jack f'cking sh!t about colour vision. Trust me, I know plenty. The VAST majority of people who have VCL restrictions are PERFECTLY capable of seeing PAPI lights etc.. The testing employed be JAA is utterly irrelevant, in complete breach of the testing medium manufacturers instructions, and wide-open to a crushing legal challenge (watch this space).
Join Date: Sep 2006
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DFC - at the end of the day, if I won't be allowed to take the JAA IR as it stands; I'll accept it far more readily armed with logic and reason as to why it's not possible. It's good of you to chip in with what appears to me as dispassionate, and frankly un-opinated reason.
As shunter says, in reality the whole colour vision thing is bulls*t; but that is another argument for another day. For now, I just wondered whther I could get around the existing rules.
Bose, I took the liberty of having a look through your previous posts. You're not a veteran at all are you, having had your IR for what, a year? Where do you get off on dispensing advice and narrow, parochial proclamations on a bulletin board?
The guy who did your IR is a good mate of mine. Just because you've piqued my interest, I'll ask him if he remembers you; and whether you're as much of a bellend as you appear to be.
As shunter says, in reality the whole colour vision thing is bulls*t; but that is another argument for another day. For now, I just wondered whther I could get around the existing rules.
Bose, I took the liberty of having a look through your previous posts. You're not a veteran at all are you, having had your IR for what, a year? Where do you get off on dispensing advice and narrow, parochial proclamations on a bulletin board?
The guy who did your IR is a good mate of mine. Just because you've piqued my interest, I'll ask him if he remembers you; and whether you're as much of a bellend as you appear to be.