Today i got my SPiN TRAINING!
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Been an interest thread, certainly made my mind up that I will do some aeros after the PPL.
And good for you! One of the brilliant things about this forum is trying to help to point people in the right direction. There is, of course, a very large amount of blah spouted here every now and then - just occassionally, mind
- but it really does operate as a genuine resource for people in the flying community.
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Ed is actually a very nice chap.
I'll let him reply re the spare seat but he's at White Waltham and thats lots of litres away from Essex in a YAK. However, if you were to be near White Waltham...then that might be different.
I had 30 mins in a YAK52 once...great fun
I'll let him reply re the spare seat but he's at White Waltham and thats lots of litres away from Essex in a YAK. However, if you were to be near White Waltham...then that might be different.
I had 30 mins in a YAK52 once...great fun
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We've got a formation team here of Yak52s...
7 formation at Easter airshow, 9 formation at airshow in January.
Brilliant would be an understatement - even the old military boys were heard to pay vast compliments.
(and no, I'm not a Yak wife, lol!)
7 formation at Easter airshow, 9 formation at airshow in January.
Brilliant would be an understatement - even the old military boys were heard to pay vast compliments.
(and no, I'm not a Yak wife, lol!)
The Original Whirly
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I did a couple of sessions of spin recovery training some time after getting my PPL(A). I absolutely hated it! I felt extremely ill both times...hence splitting it into two sessions. I hadn't been airsick for ages, but spinning did it! By the end of the second session I wasn't nervous, was quite relaxed, thought it ought to be fun, but still felt too ill to do any more. And they were short sessions!
I'm very glad I did it, just in case I ever need to use it in earnest some day. And I'm glad some of you enjoy it. And it's a great idea that everyone have a go. But after my experience, I'm not so sure that putting it back in the PPL syllabus is a great idea. I'm probably not unique, and do we really want to put off more potential pilots than give up already?
I'm very glad I did it, just in case I ever need to use it in earnest some day. And I'm glad some of you enjoy it. And it's a great idea that everyone have a go. But after my experience, I'm not so sure that putting it back in the PPL syllabus is a great idea. I'm probably not unique, and do we really want to put off more potential pilots than give up already?
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eharding
Presumably the concept of teaching spin recovery 'at some stage' would mean the stage before said pilot kills him/herself in a spin accident, which as recent history sadly shows us, can be on your second or third solo.
Wrong example to support your argument I am afraid. Not commenting on your view, just on the inappropriateness of the Southend accident in the context of spin recovery training.
Presumably the concept of teaching spin recovery 'at some stage' would mean the stage before said pilot kills him/herself in a spin accident, which as recent history sadly shows us, can be on your second or third solo.
Wrong example to support your argument I am afraid. Not commenting on your view, just on the inappropriateness of the Southend accident in the context of spin recovery training.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 27th Jul 2007 at 09:40.
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Hard to comment really without knowing the instructor, could be very experienced. Could also have been an aerobat which is OK to do spins. What's the harm in an experienced instructor taking a student up in a proper airplane for a bit of a laugh? Primary training can become a bit of a drag sometimes, take a lesson out and do some gentle aerobatics and let the instructor show off a bit 
What is dodgy are flying schools who do spin training with the wrong instructor and the wrong aircraft. If you are going to do it, then do it properly.
What is dodgy are flying schools who do spin training with the wrong instructor and the wrong aircraft. If you are going to do it, then do it properly.
Awesome but Affordable
Ed -
Track record seems to mean multiple occasions. Once only I fear.
The mark of a good pilot is to have the number of landings equal the number of takeoffs. I have a deficiency of two, both airshow accidents where the risk factor is infinitely higher than normal flying due to the proximity of the ground. One mid-air and one wire strike with a delicious damsel on the wing. I can do nothing to reduce the number but intend not to increase it.
I have been an airshow pilot for over five decades back to 1955 with some 2,300 public performances. I was a member of the UK aerobatic team in the early 1960's and have won quite a few of the BAeA contests in my time. This along with over 13,000 hours logged in mainly light aeroplanes, balloons and gliders. My track record is there.
One day you just might match it. Though I doubt it.
Enjoy your flying. That is the important thing.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
Track record seems to mean multiple occasions. Once only I fear.
The mark of a good pilot is to have the number of landings equal the number of takeoffs. I have a deficiency of two, both airshow accidents where the risk factor is infinitely higher than normal flying due to the proximity of the ground. One mid-air and one wire strike with a delicious damsel on the wing. I can do nothing to reduce the number but intend not to increase it.
I have been an airshow pilot for over five decades back to 1955 with some 2,300 public performances. I was a member of the UK aerobatic team in the early 1960's and have won quite a few of the BAeA contests in my time. This along with over 13,000 hours logged in mainly light aeroplanes, balloons and gliders. My track record is there.
One day you just might match it. Though I doubt it.
Enjoy your flying. That is the important thing.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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take a lesson out and do some gentle aerobatics and let the instructor show off a bit
We could sit and argue all day on the merits of certain execises in the PPL syllabus but within 45 hours of minimum instruction there's plenty of other safety critical factors besides recovery from a spin which must be covered fully. The reality here is that some people who've been flying for lord knows how long forget just how much needs to be understood by the PPL student during training, indeed it's not as easy as it was 20 years ago for many reasons. Therefore, keeping the adrenalin tap closed until the basics are understood is the safest way forward until they're past that first hurdle of obtaining their PPL. It may seem boring but give me boring and safe over exciting and dangerous anyday. What you the PPL holder does once you've passed your test is your decision and my suggestion is that advanced aeros or basic aeros will make you a better pilot. But first you need to walk before you can run.
Oh, and this to whoever said straight and level is boring - it is actually one of the fundamental building blocks of flying. A full hour on straight and level is just as important as any exercise! I know some instructors may whizz through it but take it from someone more experienced in flight instruction than myself - it is very, very important.
VFE.
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it is very, very important.
I agree and was lucky enough to have an instructor who hammered me on flying S&L accurately and of course trimming accurately.
Later on, when I started to fly x-country (post PPL) it made life so much easier to be able to hold a course and altitude easily, thus allowing more time for look out and nav.
I am grateful for being hammered in the PPL course.
I agree and was lucky enough to have an instructor who hammered me on flying S&L accurately and of course trimming accurately.
Later on, when I started to fly x-country (post PPL) it made life so much easier to be able to hold a course and altitude easily, thus allowing more time for look out and nav.
I am grateful for being hammered in the PPL course.
I deliberatly asked for an hour of spinning when I was half way through my PPL. For me it was a bete noir and I had decided that if I didn't like it I was going to stop learning to fly. The instructor was a very experienced chap and he dragged the 150 up to 6,000' to start the spins. Fortunately I loved it and continued with the PPL.
I tend to agree with the people who advocate spin recognition and avoidance in the PPL and I also think that it pays a newly minted PPL to consolidate their training for a while after the PPL before doing a basic aerobatics course, IMC etc to maintain the interest and expand their skills
I tend to agree with the people who advocate spin recognition and avoidance in the PPL and I also think that it pays a newly minted PPL to consolidate their training for a while after the PPL before doing a basic aerobatics course, IMC etc to maintain the interest and expand their skills
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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For me it was a bete noir and I had decided that if I didn't like it I was going to stop learning to fly.
VFE.
I paid for an hour in a Firefly with an FI to do spinning after about 10 hours of my PPL and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I felt safer in the air thereafter knowing that I could recover from a spin quite easily.
That said, I don't think that spinning training is an essential part of the PPL, but I certainly wouldn't mind if it were.
Solo students should not be allowed to do it, of course!!! They should concentrate on flying S&L within their experience envelope.
That said, I don't think that spinning training is an essential part of the PPL, but I certainly wouldn't mind if it were.
Solo students should not be allowed to do it, of course!!! They should concentrate on flying S&L within their experience envelope.
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Those in favour of pre PPL spin training ask yourself this.
Newly minted PPLs, if they are going to “inadvertently” spin, are most likely to do so in the circuit. That’s what the evidence demonstrates. Realistically, because you have had a spin or even two demonstrated to you at high level, are your chances going to be improved of recovery at 1,000 feet or less, compared with having had someone explain the recovery procedure to you, and more importantly spent the extra time labouring how to avoid spins in the first place or better still, what to do the moment a wing drops? The fact of the matter is at 1,000 feet your chances of recovery are very poor - period.
For the majority, spinning is not within the normal flight envelope. By analogy, it could be argued that you never do multi spin training. However, multis can and will spin if you let them - but they are not cleared to do so. Since most PPLs train on aircraft not cleared to spin, and moreover are more than likely not to fly an aircraft after their training cleared to spin, why teach them how to get out of a problem that should never arise? Take into account, that if the aircraft is not cleared to spin there is no "guarantee" any pilot is capable of recovering. Surely spend all the extra time you have demonstrating how to avoid it in the first place, and in particular explore the incipient spin envelope, without progressing to the developed spin.
The recent accident that was discussed on her in my view amplifies the point. The stall and spin occurred at 700 feet or less. Once the aircraft spun the pilot had very little chance at all of recovery and a couple of demonstrations during his training would not have made the slightest difference. However, at the point the wing dropped through 45 degrees and the aircraft pitched forward he still had an opportunity to prevent the spin.
IMHO to ensure consistent and reliable recovery from a spin takes a little more than an hour and one or two demonstrations and the average person is more ready for this once they have gained their PLL.
Of course that doesnt take away one bit from spinning for some being jolly good fun. Personally, if it is your sort of thing, I see no reason to go and do some spinning at any stage with an instructor, just dont consider it part of your PPL training. However, if you have only got enough money to spend on one extra hour, spend that exploring the envelope immedaitely prior to a spin. It might not be as much fun, but if the purpose is to make you a safer pilot, I know on which I think your money is better spent).
Newly minted PPLs, if they are going to “inadvertently” spin, are most likely to do so in the circuit. That’s what the evidence demonstrates. Realistically, because you have had a spin or even two demonstrated to you at high level, are your chances going to be improved of recovery at 1,000 feet or less, compared with having had someone explain the recovery procedure to you, and more importantly spent the extra time labouring how to avoid spins in the first place or better still, what to do the moment a wing drops? The fact of the matter is at 1,000 feet your chances of recovery are very poor - period.
For the majority, spinning is not within the normal flight envelope. By analogy, it could be argued that you never do multi spin training. However, multis can and will spin if you let them - but they are not cleared to do so. Since most PPLs train on aircraft not cleared to spin, and moreover are more than likely not to fly an aircraft after their training cleared to spin, why teach them how to get out of a problem that should never arise? Take into account, that if the aircraft is not cleared to spin there is no "guarantee" any pilot is capable of recovering. Surely spend all the extra time you have demonstrating how to avoid it in the first place, and in particular explore the incipient spin envelope, without progressing to the developed spin.
The recent accident that was discussed on her in my view amplifies the point. The stall and spin occurred at 700 feet or less. Once the aircraft spun the pilot had very little chance at all of recovery and a couple of demonstrations during his training would not have made the slightest difference. However, at the point the wing dropped through 45 degrees and the aircraft pitched forward he still had an opportunity to prevent the spin.
IMHO to ensure consistent and reliable recovery from a spin takes a little more than an hour and one or two demonstrations and the average person is more ready for this once they have gained their PLL.
Of course that doesnt take away one bit from spinning for some being jolly good fun. Personally, if it is your sort of thing, I see no reason to go and do some spinning at any stage with an instructor, just dont consider it part of your PPL training. However, if you have only got enough money to spend on one extra hour, spend that exploring the envelope immedaitely prior to a spin. It might not be as much fun, but if the purpose is to make you a safer pilot, I know on which I think your money is better spent).
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I felt safer in the air thereafter knowing that I could recover from a spin quite easily.
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Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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I would very much doubt that necessary slim_slag. Obviously the only information we have here is what the original poster typed - hardly gospel is it? And if it were, it's hardly crime of the century. One hopes the poster has the sense to realise that they are not sufficiently trained to bimble off and "give it a go" alone.... such is my concern.... I have every trust that instructor will have installed the importance of not attempting such manouvres without further training but can we be sure the student feels the same way?
It is my opinion that spin recovery training at such an early stage enforces the macho complex which *can* lead to a safety issue at some point, perhaps not too far down the line. That might sound rather fastitidious to the old dog brigade but I'm afraid it is a proven point. If one were to disregard one aspect of flight training safety because one thought ones self above it then you might as well say that about all aspects and rewrite the book yourself because, in effect, you're saying that the system is wrong and that you, the lone man, know much better . It is a brave man who would stand and defend such actions because the history books are littered with those who thought that the rules did not apply to them, some like Sir Douglas Bader made it through with just a couple of legs missing, others were less fortunate...
It all starts with the basics of flight training whether you think they are necessary, inadequate or not and it is my personal opinion that the spin avoidance training is one of the better changes made to the syllabus in recent years. However, I understand the thinking behind learning spin recovery once the student has grasped other more important flight safety aspects first. Let us not forget that a PPL is only the start of a pilots learning, just like a driving licence is for the motorist.
VFE.
It is my opinion that spin recovery training at such an early stage enforces the macho complex which *can* lead to a safety issue at some point, perhaps not too far down the line. That might sound rather fastitidious to the old dog brigade but I'm afraid it is a proven point. If one were to disregard one aspect of flight training safety because one thought ones self above it then you might as well say that about all aspects and rewrite the book yourself because, in effect, you're saying that the system is wrong and that you, the lone man, know much better . It is a brave man who would stand and defend such actions because the history books are littered with those who thought that the rules did not apply to them, some like Sir Douglas Bader made it through with just a couple of legs missing, others were less fortunate...
It all starts with the basics of flight training whether you think they are necessary, inadequate or not and it is my personal opinion that the spin avoidance training is one of the better changes made to the syllabus in recent years. However, I understand the thinking behind learning spin recovery once the student has grasped other more important flight safety aspects first. Let us not forget that a PPL is only the start of a pilots learning, just like a driving licence is for the motorist.
VFE.
Last edited by VFE; 27th Jul 2007 at 13:05.
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@kiwi Chick
The crash at Paraparam also highlighted some shortcoming in the supervisory side of instruction at the aero club conducting the flight. I flew for a few months at that club and the turnover of instructors seemed to lead to a lack of training continuity.
Realistically, stalling a PA-38 at 800agl is unlikely to be recoverable, even with numerous hours of spin training. I agree that learning how to avoid them is time better spent.
Incidentally, I`ve done 2 spins in a 152 and like someone else stated, with about 11 hours to my name at the time it scared the crap out of me! Especially as they were with a somewhat cavalier instructor who begun the spins at about 2800 ft and over open water (I though over ground was best practice where there are more reference features to aid recovery)..
Cheers
James
The crash at Paraparam also highlighted some shortcoming in the supervisory side of instruction at the aero club conducting the flight. I flew for a few months at that club and the turnover of instructors seemed to lead to a lack of training continuity.
Realistically, stalling a PA-38 at 800agl is unlikely to be recoverable, even with numerous hours of spin training. I agree that learning how to avoid them is time better spent.
Incidentally, I`ve done 2 spins in a 152 and like someone else stated, with about 11 hours to my name at the time it scared the crap out of me! Especially as they were with a somewhat cavalier instructor who begun the spins at about 2800 ft and over open water (I though over ground was best practice where there are more reference features to aid recovery)..
Cheers
James
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I learnt to fly in the mid'80s in Norwich aged 17, I was so hung-over on spin training day that I concentrated more on keeping body and soul together than the training (managed it until I got out and knelt gently in the grass
)
Mindful of the fact that I needed to feel comfortable with the aircraft I then became 'One of those stupid PPLs' and , against club rules, the first time I was allowed out of the circuit solo took the 150 up to 5000' and did some spins and recoveries until I was happy.
Looking back not a sensible thing to do, especially as a week after passing my GFT my CFI spun one in whilst practicing his airshow routine
)Mindful of the fact that I needed to feel comfortable with the aircraft I then became 'One of those stupid PPLs' and , against club rules, the first time I was allowed out of the circuit solo took the 150 up to 5000' and did some spins and recoveries until I was happy.
Looking back not a sensible thing to do, especially as a week after passing my GFT my CFI spun one in whilst practicing his airshow routine