Hidden PPL Charges?
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Hey, thanks for all those replies. I think the USA is the better option for me, i am out there already (No Airfare) it will cost an extra $40 to upgrade my insurance. To me living expenses is not a hidden cost, as said above, i eat here. I currently have been made redundant, so no lost earnings, i have no mortgage or rent to pay whilst i am away. So i think it weighs up for me, i have had 3 hours in the air over here and i will come back and have at least ten or so and join a club. Thanks all for the responses, been a great help, just now got to get an M1 visa as i have a J1.
I am thinking of OBA, which i have heard good and bad about, but they seem to be priced in the middle and are friendly and helpful, any views on OBA?
Plus, they are down in orlando, i am up in boston in the summer, thats a 22 hour train journey, are there any good schools up the north of the USA?
I am thinking of OBA, which i have heard good and bad about, but they seem to be priced in the middle and are friendly and helpful, any views on OBA?
Plus, they are down in orlando, i am up in boston in the summer, thats a 22 hour train journey, are there any good schools up the north of the USA?
Blah Blah Blah
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I think you should compare the actual finish cost between the UK and US and not the advertised cost. I am fairly sure that 90% of the time you will save money in the US, even with the hidden charges.
Minus the hidden US costs off of the advertised UK prices and i am sure you will still save money on the Final US cost.
Minus the hidden US costs off of the advertised UK prices and i am sure you will still save money on the Final US cost.
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planecrazy.eu,
I've been there [OBA] three times now - please PM me if you want info (I was last there a couple of months back). There is also a thread running on the 'Professional Pilot Training' forum which may provide you with some pointers.
Can't help on other schools in the US I'm afraid as my flying has been done in Florida and California only.
PD
I've been there [OBA] three times now - please PM me if you want info (I was last there a couple of months back). There is also a thread running on the 'Professional Pilot Training' forum which may provide you with some pointers.
Can't help on other schools in the US I'm afraid as my flying has been done in Florida and California only.
PD
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planecrazy,
Have you thought about Spain? You can easily do a ppl, including all the extras and accomodation, flights etc. for less than 4k. The weather is excellent and the chances are you wont miss a days training.
Cheers ECDI.
Have you thought about Spain? You can easily do a ppl, including all the extras and accomodation, flights etc. for less than 4k. The weather is excellent and the chances are you wont miss a days training.
Cheers ECDI.
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As Julian mentioned, Landing fees can increase the cost in the UK (a friend converted his FAA IR to JAA IR and the landing fees / approach fees added an additional £500 to the cost, and this was for just over 15 hours flying).
I'd say, that it doesn't matter where you learn, but the fact is that when everything is taken into account - airfares, hotel, visa issue fees etc.... it is still far cheaper in the USA, especially with the good exchange rate at the moment. I paid $5000 for 64 hours in a 172 in the USA for a JAA PPL - back in 2000 though, plus about $1000 hotel and £250 airfare. I still ate in the USA,and had a damn good holiday at the same time, and the hotel rate is still the same now as it was then at $43 per night (special discounted hotel rate for flight school people)
I'd say, that it doesn't matter where you learn, but the fact is that when everything is taken into account - airfares, hotel, visa issue fees etc.... it is still far cheaper in the USA, especially with the good exchange rate at the moment. I paid $5000 for 64 hours in a 172 in the USA for a JAA PPL - back in 2000 though, plus about $1000 hotel and £250 airfare. I still ate in the USA,and had a damn good holiday at the same time, and the hotel rate is still the same now as it was then at $43 per night (special discounted hotel rate for flight school people)
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In florida i am almost set on OBA, but what good schools are in Calafornia and another user mentioned Spain? Spain would be better as there is no hurricane season to watch out for like i will probibally experience in Florida in August. Plus i was thinking of FTE for my ATPL in a few years time after Uni.
My other problem is i have J-1 visa, does anyone know if i can convert a J-1 to and M-1 Visa pretty easy whilst i am out there? I am working till the middle of August in the USA but my Visa is till October and i cant train on a J-1, so is there a conversion process thats pretty quick. The embassy is a rip of to ring £1.20 per minute, but might have to ring as a last resort, thats all for the info so far...
My other problem is i have J-1 visa, does anyone know if i can convert a J-1 to and M-1 Visa pretty easy whilst i am out there? I am working till the middle of August in the USA but my Visa is till October and i cant train on a J-1, so is there a conversion process thats pretty quick. The embassy is a rip of to ring £1.20 per minute, but might have to ring as a last resort, thats all for the info so far...
Supercalafragilistic
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expialidotiousIsAVeryLong
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Have a quick scan through http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=224869
You can see what I have spent to date on lessons and other PPL expenses, I know it's not a total figure as I'm not done yet but might give you an idea.
Ben
You can see what I have spent to date on lessons and other PPL expenses, I know it's not a total figure as I'm not done yet but might give you an idea.
Ben
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Thanks all again, i never knew i could convert J-1 to M-1 whilst in the states, do you know if this is hard or the time it takes, and biggest question, where? I will be in the north, Pitsfield MA and NYC. I assume i go to an Embassy like i spent six hours in the Londone one a few days ago. Really not sure sure about that part and not sure even where to get help...
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PPL UK or USA
Plane Crazy,
The following is a copy of a post I wrote for the benefit of Bakoo, you too may find it helpful.
Bakoo,
I note that some people have suggested you should do your PPL in the UK. I disagree: I would say don't. Go to the US. You will not need to get your FAA PPL exchanged for a UK one at all. You can fly perfectly legally in the UK on an FAA PPL indefinitely, because both the UK and the USA are ICAO countries, (ICAO means International Commercial Aviation Organisation, a body set up by the UN to regulate commercial aviation internationally). ICAO countries automatically recognise one another's PPL licences. You only need the licence of the country in which you intend to fly if your intend becoming a professional pilot. Even then, you can go direct from your FAA PPL straight to a JAA ATPL, without having to get a JAA PPL.
I have just revalidated my British PPL in the UK after many years of being 'expired'. I had thought it would cost no more than £4,000 and take a couple of months. In fact, despite being available to fly full time, despite having all the money required on tap and despite being based in the relatively much drier South of England, it still took 20 months and cost in excess of £7,000!
Admittedly, some of this was due to poor instructors: I walked out of two clubs last summer and had to start all over again at a new club each time.
By far the worst obstacle, however, was UK weather. At least two thirds of my bookings were cancelled from that cause alone. In 2004, between July and December I booked a whole week's flying six times and cancelled it all, one day at a time; and that was in 'dry' Central Southern England, Northern weather was much worse!
My advice would be to go to the US, where you will have an FAA PPL licence within six weeks. (It doesn't matter which country issues the PPL as long as it is an ICAO country, and the USA is an ICAO country). Then at least, you will have a valid licence 'in the bag'. It won't be a holiday; it will be damned hard work, but enjoyable and worthwhile.
You should then be prepared to put in a further several hours at a British club on your return before being allowed to exercise the privileges of your licence. You will need this to learn to cope with UK weather and our extra complex airspace and busy radio. It sounds convoluted, but will be very much quicker and cheaper in the long run.
If you must train at a UK club or FTO, I would say do it in the Winter. The weather between October and March is much more stable and it is easier to control a light aeroplane without being thrown about by thermal activity. You will also have much less flying cancelled owing to bad weather.
Forgive me mentioning this, but since your training budget is so tight, are you sure you are going to have enough money available to keep yourself 'current' after your return. Don't answer this question on this thread; just recognise that this will be an issue to which you need to have an answer that satisfies you.
Good luck: I hope you are successful.
Broomstick.
The following is a copy of a post I wrote for the benefit of Bakoo, you too may find it helpful.
Bakoo,
I note that some people have suggested you should do your PPL in the UK. I disagree: I would say don't. Go to the US. You will not need to get your FAA PPL exchanged for a UK one at all. You can fly perfectly legally in the UK on an FAA PPL indefinitely, because both the UK and the USA are ICAO countries, (ICAO means International Commercial Aviation Organisation, a body set up by the UN to regulate commercial aviation internationally). ICAO countries automatically recognise one another's PPL licences. You only need the licence of the country in which you intend to fly if your intend becoming a professional pilot. Even then, you can go direct from your FAA PPL straight to a JAA ATPL, without having to get a JAA PPL.
I have just revalidated my British PPL in the UK after many years of being 'expired'. I had thought it would cost no more than £4,000 and take a couple of months. In fact, despite being available to fly full time, despite having all the money required on tap and despite being based in the relatively much drier South of England, it still took 20 months and cost in excess of £7,000!
Admittedly, some of this was due to poor instructors: I walked out of two clubs last summer and had to start all over again at a new club each time.
By far the worst obstacle, however, was UK weather. At least two thirds of my bookings were cancelled from that cause alone. In 2004, between July and December I booked a whole week's flying six times and cancelled it all, one day at a time; and that was in 'dry' Central Southern England, Northern weather was much worse!
My advice would be to go to the US, where you will have an FAA PPL licence within six weeks. (It doesn't matter which country issues the PPL as long as it is an ICAO country, and the USA is an ICAO country). Then at least, you will have a valid licence 'in the bag'. It won't be a holiday; it will be damned hard work, but enjoyable and worthwhile.
You should then be prepared to put in a further several hours at a British club on your return before being allowed to exercise the privileges of your licence. You will need this to learn to cope with UK weather and our extra complex airspace and busy radio. It sounds convoluted, but will be very much quicker and cheaper in the long run.
If you must train at a UK club or FTO, I would say do it in the Winter. The weather between October and March is much more stable and it is easier to control a light aeroplane without being thrown about by thermal activity. You will also have much less flying cancelled owing to bad weather.
Forgive me mentioning this, but since your training budget is so tight, are you sure you are going to have enough money available to keep yourself 'current' after your return. Don't answer this question on this thread; just recognise that this will be an issue to which you need to have an answer that satisfies you.
Good luck: I hope you are successful.
Broomstick.
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US - Alient Flight Students
have a look at - http://www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/ - which explains the hoops you have to jump through. You will need fingerprints taken - by the sherrif if you are in the US. You need the necessary forms completed by your chosen flight school to enable you to complete the TSA online system. Don't know how that affects you changing your visa once there but it allows you to apply for one if outside the US - and is killing off alien flight training in my view.
There was a full article on pprune posted by naples air centre you might still find it.
Oh and the savings in landing fees will more than cover the equipment you need. You might find it difficult to get the UK books in the US if you do the CAA syllabus. I currently fly in the UK on my FAA licence which although it is "valid" as an icao compliant licence does cause some complications with less knowledgeable rental organisations and particularly currently getting permission from teh French authorities to fly G-reg across the FIR to France.
There was a full article on pprune posted by naples air centre you might still find it.
Oh and the savings in landing fees will more than cover the equipment you need. You might find it difficult to get the UK books in the US if you do the CAA syllabus. I currently fly in the UK on my FAA licence which although it is "valid" as an icao compliant licence does cause some complications with less knowledgeable rental organisations and particularly currently getting permission from teh French authorities to fly G-reg across the FIR to France.
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US TO UK
Hi Plane Crazy..
I did my PPL in the USA and thought it was very good training, however, if your intending to fly when you return back to the UK, BE AWARE. Very few UK clubs will actually let you fly their a/c since they feel that they have lost money that you gave to the US and you have skipped the 'Weather Drag Curve' e.t.c. of the UK. They also will make you go through practically everything with 1 of their instructors before they put you in for a skills test with an examiner (For the UK JAR-FCL licence). They will make you sit all the written exams and RT practical but it is worth it. The UK is very different in terms of airspace and RT workload than the US and the phrase's and general terminology is very different also.
I am converting my FAA licence to the JAR equivalent and I have done at least 10 hours flying in the Warrior (I trained on the cherokee in the US) from Blackpool airport. The CFI actually says that my flying is actually very good and was just commenting on minor issues.
The 2 biggest things to get your head around are 1. Air Traffic and 2. Airspace then your away
Good Luck ED 
I did my PPL in the USA and thought it was very good training, however, if your intending to fly when you return back to the UK, BE AWARE. Very few UK clubs will actually let you fly their a/c since they feel that they have lost money that you gave to the US and you have skipped the 'Weather Drag Curve' e.t.c. of the UK. They also will make you go through practically everything with 1 of their instructors before they put you in for a skills test with an examiner (For the UK JAR-FCL licence). They will make you sit all the written exams and RT practical but it is worth it. The UK is very different in terms of airspace and RT workload than the US and the phrase's and general terminology is very different also.
I am converting my FAA licence to the JAR equivalent and I have done at least 10 hours flying in the Warrior (I trained on the cherokee in the US) from Blackpool airport. The CFI actually says that my flying is actually very good and was just commenting on minor issues.
The 2 biggest things to get your head around are 1. Air Traffic and 2. Airspace then your away
Good Luck ED
Blah Blah Blah
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Edward
Thats because you are converting from FAA to JAA. It is easier to get your JAA in the U.S and then apply for FAA based on your JAA.
I got my JAA PPL in Florida. When i got home my local club where not pleased that i did not get my PPL with them and tried to make me do another skills test. I put my foot down and told them i will do a check ride and that is it, as I have a valid JAA PPL i don't see why they should want to make me do another skills test. Some clubs will try it on and others won't, you just need to stand up to them.
As i still fly in the U.S from time to time i applied to the FAA for an Airmans Certificate based on my JAA PPL. it cost a grand total of £38 which was payable to the CAA!! The FAA actualy gave me an FAA license which is valid as long as my JAA license is valid.
I was not asked to any exams or test flights, just for a few signatures.
Thats because you are converting from FAA to JAA. It is easier to get your JAA in the U.S and then apply for FAA based on your JAA.
I got my JAA PPL in Florida. When i got home my local club where not pleased that i did not get my PPL with them and tried to make me do another skills test. I put my foot down and told them i will do a check ride and that is it, as I have a valid JAA PPL i don't see why they should want to make me do another skills test. Some clubs will try it on and others won't, you just need to stand up to them.
As i still fly in the U.S from time to time i applied to the FAA for an Airmans Certificate based on my JAA PPL. it cost a grand total of £38 which was payable to the CAA!! The FAA actualy gave me an FAA license which is valid as long as my JAA license is valid.
I was not asked to any exams or test flights, just for a few signatures.
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Edward,
See posts above but if the club you are presently flying with is making you do all the written exams and a skills test then I would turn around and find another.
Its needless and they are spending YOUR money that you could be using doing some flying for yourself...or probably by the time you tot up whats its going to cost you for that lot ...buy yourself a share!!!!
Julian.
See posts above but if the club you are presently flying with is making you do all the written exams and a skills test then I would turn around and find another.
Its needless and they are spending YOUR money that you could be using doing some flying for yourself...or probably by the time you tot up whats its going to cost you for that lot ...buy yourself a share!!!!
Julian.
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The biggest hidden cost:
You can gain a JAA PPL with a minimum of 45 hours. It is not guaranteed that you will achieve it in that time so be prepared to pay for more if necessary. We normally suggest 50-55 hours as a norm. The 45 hour minimum depends on good continuity (at least an hour a week - not an issue if you're doing it full time in one go), good weather (not a big issue in the USA, except in hurricane season
) and personal ability.
You can gain a JAA PPL with a minimum of 45 hours. It is not guaranteed that you will achieve it in that time so be prepared to pay for more if necessary. We normally suggest 50-55 hours as a norm. The 45 hour minimum depends on good continuity (at least an hour a week - not an issue if you're doing it full time in one go), good weather (not a big issue in the USA, except in hurricane season
) and personal ability.
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UK GA industry spleen
Everybody,
Be aware that if you either train in the USA or buy into an 'N' Reg aeroplane you will be attracting the spleen of many in the UK GA industry. They are invariably professionals who know all the ropes and also know that you do not.
Some years ago, I chanced to remark to someone that I intended buying into an 'N' Reg aeroplane and was told that you are only allowed to use an 'N' Reg aeroplane for six months of every year. This was clearly a lie designed to disuade me from going 'N' reg.
If you have an FAA PPL, you do not need to swap it for a JAA PPL on your return home. Both Britain and the USA are ICAO countries and all ICAO countries recognise one another's PPLs. The only time you need to hold the licence of the country in which your aeroplane is registered is if you hold a commercial licence.
In short, there is no reason why you should not fly for the rest of your life in Britain in 'G' Reg aeroplanes on an FAA licence. You do not have to undergo written exams or a skill test. Any club that tells you this is committing a fraud on you. Believe me it goes on. Don't be fooled.
Broomstick.
Be aware that if you either train in the USA or buy into an 'N' Reg aeroplane you will be attracting the spleen of many in the UK GA industry. They are invariably professionals who know all the ropes and also know that you do not.
Some years ago, I chanced to remark to someone that I intended buying into an 'N' Reg aeroplane and was told that you are only allowed to use an 'N' Reg aeroplane for six months of every year. This was clearly a lie designed to disuade me from going 'N' reg.
If you have an FAA PPL, you do not need to swap it for a JAA PPL on your return home. Both Britain and the USA are ICAO countries and all ICAO countries recognise one another's PPLs. The only time you need to hold the licence of the country in which your aeroplane is registered is if you hold a commercial licence.
In short, there is no reason why you should not fly for the rest of your life in Britain in 'G' Reg aeroplanes on an FAA licence. You do not have to undergo written exams or a skill test. Any club that tells you this is committing a fraud on you. Believe me it goes on. Don't be fooled.
Broomstick.
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Be aware that if you either train in the USA or buy into an 'N' Reg aeroplane you will be attracting the spleen of many in the UK GA industry. They are invariably professionals who know all the ropes and also know that you do not.
Cynicism is an art best not practiced on the internet, Broomstick
Actually, if I may correct, the UK automatically validates ICAO (which includes FAA) PPLs for a G-reg, worldwide operation, but this is rare and I don't know of another ICAO state which does the same.
The USA is perhaps the closest, making a piggyback FAA PPL (based on a JAA or another PPL) easy to get. Most European states don't do this.
It's quite suprising the CAA has put in such a concession, IMHO. Technically, it's very reasonable (because the FAA PPL is no easier to get, in flying skills terms, than the JAA one, and its written material is completely adequate for the job) but it must be a thorn in the side of UK flying schools.
Cynicism is an art best not practiced on the internet, Broomstick
Actually, if I may correct, the UK automatically validates ICAO (which includes FAA) PPLs for a G-reg, worldwide operation, but this is rare and I don't know of another ICAO state which does the same.
The USA is perhaps the closest, making a piggyback FAA PPL (based on a JAA or another PPL) easy to get. Most European states don't do this.
It's quite suprising the CAA has put in such a concession, IMHO. Technically, it's very reasonable (because the FAA PPL is no easier to get, in flying skills terms, than the JAA one, and its written material is completely adequate for the job) but it must be a thorn in the side of UK flying schools.
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Its needless and they are spending YOUR money that you could be using doing some flying for yourself...or probably by the time you tot up whats its going to cost you for that lot ...buy yourself a share!!!!
Julian I understand what your saying, but I found it very much different in the UK to what it is in the States (Airspace & the like) so it is in my best interests to be fully converse with the UK and I think it is foolish to simply just do a checkride and then be cleared to fly around in an alien environment. But thats my opinion.. you might be much more advanced than myself and I am quite proactive with regards to airmanship. But I am a motorglider instructor in the UK based from Samlesbury in Lancashire and have nearly 300Hrs
Cheers
ED
Julian I understand what your saying, but I found it very much different in the UK to what it is in the States (Airspace & the like) so it is in my best interests to be fully converse with the UK and I think it is foolish to simply just do a checkride and then be cleared to fly around in an alien environment. But thats my opinion.. you might be much more advanced than myself and I am quite proactive with regards to airmanship. But I am a motorglider instructor in the UK based from Samlesbury in Lancashire and have nearly 300Hrs
Cheers
ED