The real VNE (moved from J B for more input)(and merged)
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The real VNE
Has anyone ever come close to or reached the real VNE of a light aircraft, and lived to tell the tale? What sort of damage did the thing sustain? Most I ever pushed it was 190kts in a an aircraft that officially redlined in the mid 160's.....
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Ever heard of flutter? It's quick and it's fatal unless you can abandon the aeroplane. Presumably you didn't suffer it since you're still here, but its usually what happens if VNE is seriously exceeded, along with overstress of the airframe. Hope you reported the overspeed to the engineers for an airframe check afterwards.
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I'matightbastard
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I thought VNE was set at 90% of the max demonstrated or something.
Still 160 divided by 10 equals ...erm... sixteen plus 160 is ...erm... hold on a minute.
I've been right up there
Still 160 divided by 10 equals ...erm... sixteen plus 160 is ...erm... hold on a minute.
I've been right up there
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Do it all the time ....
The real Vne is the one marked on the ASI, you silly boy! I used to go there all the time. (What I fly now, if you don't pull back the throttles in cruise, will overspeed, when a loud horn sounds to tell the world that you haven't been paying attention, but that's not a small airplane.)
To go beyond that, into uncharted territory, well, no, I try not to go there, which is probably part of the reason I am sat here alive and well.
I assume you must have a car or a motorcycle or perhaps both. Ever taken one to the 'real' redline on the tachometre? I do that all the time; it is where the red zone starts. If you feel cheated because the engine didn't blow up, so that you want to go a bit further in search of the real, absolute limit, then you must be rich or stupid or both.
We had a saying in the States that if it weren't for Bonanzas then the world would be full of doctors. That's because that airplane is a bit slippery and if you get over your head and out of control on instruments it will very quickly get into that zone you are so curious about. Once you have seen an airplane reduced to little bits you lose your boyish enthusiasm for exploring the limits.
You might as well ask, 'Ever walked out onto stuff labelled, "Thin Ice"?
To go beyond that, into uncharted territory, well, no, I try not to go there, which is probably part of the reason I am sat here alive and well.
I assume you must have a car or a motorcycle or perhaps both. Ever taken one to the 'real' redline on the tachometre? I do that all the time; it is where the red zone starts. If you feel cheated because the engine didn't blow up, so that you want to go a bit further in search of the real, absolute limit, then you must be rich or stupid or both.
We had a saying in the States that if it weren't for Bonanzas then the world would be full of doctors. That's because that airplane is a bit slippery and if you get over your head and out of control on instruments it will very quickly get into that zone you are so curious about. Once you have seen an airplane reduced to little bits you lose your boyish enthusiasm for exploring the limits.
You might as well ask, 'Ever walked out onto stuff labelled, "Thin Ice"?
Title? What title?
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I recall that once when doing a spiral dive recovery in a PA28, as part of an IMC revalidation, I accidently managed to wack the throttle fully open as I went to grab it with the intention of closing it. There then followed a second or two of both instructor and I reaching to close it before I pulled hands off and let him deal with it. No idea what speed we were doing at that point, but I know the instructor said afterwards that we got pretty close to VNE. All pretty stupid and nasty really
I failed the test and had to do it again the following week.
I failed the test and had to do it again the following week.
Avoid imitations
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Exceeded it once in a dive in a Super Puma helicopter, whilst practicing my aerobatics sequence.
Damned main rotor came off, all the warning panel captions came on and we plummeted vertically into the sea at well over 250 kts.
Scary things, these simulators.
Damned main rotor came off, all the warning panel captions came on and we plummeted vertically into the sea at well over 250 kts.
Scary things, these simulators.
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Yeah been perhaps 30kts beyond VNE in a PA-28. Isn't VNE a figure based on 90% Vd? (max dive speed.) I have had about 8 pints stella, but isn't Vd kinda ultimate design speed, higher than Vne which is a pilot limit.. (along with being an STD obviously)
Edit:
I will add to say I was passenger in the back in a spiral dive recovery that went very very wrong, and that exceeding or coming close to VNE in normal ops is very stupid!
Edit:
I will add to say I was passenger in the back in a spiral dive recovery that went very very wrong, and that exceeding or coming close to VNE in normal ops is very stupid!
Last edited by tom775257; 30th Sep 2005 at 11:09.
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Exceeding Vne in a power dive
It's been mentioned before, but interesting in relation to this thread:
http://mach1.luftarchiv.de/first_flg.htm
http://mach1.luftarchiv.de/first_flg.htm
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No, unfortunately no test pilot salary for me. This actually came about a couple years back when I was dying to get an aeros approval (mind the pun) but just couldn't afford to pay for one. By chance one day I came across a 'how to' book on aerobatics and had just started a job where I only carried pax one way.
So on the return leg to my home base I used to take a little time out and teach myself a few basic moves. The moment(s) in question first came about when I was learning how to do barrel rolls - on the first two or three I simply wan't giving enough back stick on the entry and by the time I returned to wings level found myself in the yellow arc and about 30 degrees nose down.
Reverting to some wise advice i'd one received, I rememberd that the real damage at high speed is caused by excessive g loading as opposed to pure wind velocity, eased out of the dive slowly and found 190kts as per the above.
If only I could say that was the dumbest thing I ever did....
So on the return leg to my home base I used to take a little time out and teach myself a few basic moves. The moment(s) in question first came about when I was learning how to do barrel rolls - on the first two or three I simply wan't giving enough back stick on the entry and by the time I returned to wings level found myself in the yellow arc and about 30 degrees nose down.
Reverting to some wise advice i'd one received, I rememberd that the real damage at high speed is caused by excessive g loading as opposed to pure wind velocity, eased out of the dive slowly and found 190kts as per the above.
If only I could say that was the dumbest thing I ever did....
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Well so far barbershopquartets I've been really impressed with your posts! I hope you own the aircraft that you have apparently been abusing. If not, I hope you have been reporting all of your "episodes" so that the next poor sucker who flies the beast has at least had the engineers investigate them and determine whether or not they are still airworthy.
So you bought a book on "how to do aerobatics" eh? It seems that you may have previously bought a book on "how to fly an aircraft" too! You didn't say in your
but I suppose you did remember to throttle back when you realised you were a bit nose down eh?
As far as owning the aircraft is concerned, that also applies to your
So you bought a book on "how to do aerobatics" eh? It seems that you may have previously bought a book on "how to fly an aircraft" too! You didn't say in your
on the first two or three I simply wan't giving enough back stick on the entry and by the time I returned to wings level found myself in the yellow arc and about 30 degrees nose down
As far as owning the aircraft is concerned, that also applies to your
For quite some time now i've been practicing my back of the drag curve moves and find that with full flap and around 70% power, I can sit there hanging off the prop and fly down the runway at around 12 inches and an IAS of 25-30kts.
For my next performance, I wanted to start exploring the manoeuvreing capabilities in this configuration. To date the limit of my exploration has been gentle rudder turns about 20 degrees either side of centreline. As the wing is stalled in this manoeuvre and the majority of lift is coming from the prop, I leave the ailerons alone and work entirely in the vertical axis.
From someone out there who knows this stuff a little better than me, what are the things I need to be aware of and what's going to bite me? What's a safe threshold when it comes to a rate of turn? How far can I push this?
For my next performance, I wanted to start exploring the manoeuvreing capabilities in this configuration. To date the limit of my exploration has been gentle rudder turns about 20 degrees either side of centreline. As the wing is stalled in this manoeuvre and the majority of lift is coming from the prop, I leave the ailerons alone and work entirely in the vertical axis.
From someone out there who knows this stuff a little better than me, what are the things I need to be aware of and what's going to bite me? What's a safe threshold when it comes to a rate of turn? How far can I push this?
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Thank you for your post, Ms Fawththort. Alot of people tend to criticise me on this site and once in a while, it's nice when someone has a kind word to say. Have a great day!
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Unofficial, self appointed reps from the FAA
Must head off for the day and unfortunately won't get a chance to catch up with any of you until next week. But before I go.....
In columbia, we are not in the habit of berating people for the way they choose to live their lives or in this case, they way they choose to fly. Usually, we feel it is a little presumptuous and condescending to attack people for one little thing they might say or one little question they might ask. Instead, what we prefer to do is reserve judgement on people, educate them as much as we can and once they are presented with all the facts, allow them to use their own judgement and their own conscience to determine the best course of action that is right for them. But that is just Columbia.
Many pilots on this site like to find threads they disagree with and jump in boots and all and criticise. Why? I do not go looking for threads where someone has asked a question which I consider to be analally retentive and then berate them for it. If I don't have an answer to their question, I don't post!
For all those who manage to refrain from quoting the rule book at other pilots and instead choose to share their experience and wisdom, keep it coming. You guys rock!!!!!
In columbia, we are not in the habit of berating people for the way they choose to live their lives or in this case, they way they choose to fly. Usually, we feel it is a little presumptuous and condescending to attack people for one little thing they might say or one little question they might ask. Instead, what we prefer to do is reserve judgement on people, educate them as much as we can and once they are presented with all the facts, allow them to use their own judgement and their own conscience to determine the best course of action that is right for them. But that is just Columbia.
Many pilots on this site like to find threads they disagree with and jump in boots and all and criticise. Why? I do not go looking for threads where someone has asked a question which I consider to be analally retentive and then berate them for it. If I don't have an answer to their question, I don't post!
For all those who manage to refrain from quoting the rule book at other pilots and instead choose to share their experience and wisdom, keep it coming. You guys rock!!!!!
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I'm speechless after reading your two posts! Are you really serious? Maybe a troll looking for someone to bite?
I would take a step backwards and consider the implications of what you are asking here before you become another accident statistic.
Fly safe mate
Edit to add VNE is a structural limitation, please go read your books again!!
I would take a step backwards and consider the implications of what you are asking here before you become another accident statistic.
Fly safe mate
Edit to add VNE is a structural limitation, please go read your books again!!
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Many years ago, I was sent to fetch one of our aircraft that had had some protracted servicing. It looked normal on the ground, started normally, and behaved well enough in departure until I transitioned from climb to a somewhat faster cruise speed.
Without any lead-in or warning, the entire airframe suddenly seemed to be involved in an intense buffeting vibration. After some number of long seconds, the vibration subsided, without my having taken any specific control action to either cause it initially or to abate the vibration subsequently.
I experimented cautiously, using power for control. Increased speed did not seem to matter, but decreasing to the low end of cruise caused a very aggressive flutter in the wings that seemed possibly strong enough to disassemble the aircraft while in flight. The effect was quite violent and noisy - much different from stall-type buffeting.
So, the good news was that I had some control over the problem. The bad news was that I could not slow down without getting the shakes, and had no info about how the rules would change with shifting balance due to fuel burn. A swift return to point of departure seemed appropriate.
I concluded the only way to avoid these shakes while uncomfortably close to the ground during landing was to make a very 'hot' wheel landing on, alas, a nearly windless day. Very long runway helped, tyres cooperated, all went fine.
The shop fussed over it for a few days, then eventually confessed that an un-named mechanic had parked his lunch pail on a pile of shims which were meant to be used when re-attaching the wings after servicing. Without those shims, the wings had enough play, under normal air loads, to wriggle around on their own, making the entire aircraft a sort of harmonica at selected speeds.
Without any lead-in or warning, the entire airframe suddenly seemed to be involved in an intense buffeting vibration. After some number of long seconds, the vibration subsided, without my having taken any specific control action to either cause it initially or to abate the vibration subsequently.
I experimented cautiously, using power for control. Increased speed did not seem to matter, but decreasing to the low end of cruise caused a very aggressive flutter in the wings that seemed possibly strong enough to disassemble the aircraft while in flight. The effect was quite violent and noisy - much different from stall-type buffeting.
So, the good news was that I had some control over the problem. The bad news was that I could not slow down without getting the shakes, and had no info about how the rules would change with shifting balance due to fuel burn. A swift return to point of departure seemed appropriate.
I concluded the only way to avoid these shakes while uncomfortably close to the ground during landing was to make a very 'hot' wheel landing on, alas, a nearly windless day. Very long runway helped, tyres cooperated, all went fine.
The shop fussed over it for a few days, then eventually confessed that an un-named mechanic had parked his lunch pail on a pile of shims which were meant to be used when re-attaching the wings after servicing. Without those shims, the wings had enough play, under normal air loads, to wriggle around on their own, making the entire aircraft a sort of harmonica at selected speeds.