Quitting Flying
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 605
Likes: 0
From: Midlands
And another reason....
Shiny new PPL in pocket, dead keen to take a friend for a flight.
The first impressions of most of our clubs ain't good. So many of them are scruffy sheds with help- yourself coffee/ powdered milk and chipped cups.
Food? Only a small percentage of clubs go this far simply because it aint economical to do so. 95% of those that do tend to offer transport cafe-type grub where lard is the order of the day.
Impressed passenger thus far?
Walk along the flight line past the shiny private owners whizzers and suffer the further disappointment on the face of your passenger when you pitch up to the ubiquitous tired old Cesspit.
'Here it is!'
Oh..nice... (gulp) I'm really looking forward to this (ish).
Climb in, pull the door shut and the door trim closes before the rest of it. Ugh!
OK OK, it ain't the prettiest of pictures and I could certainly draw some nicer ones - hurrah for those (us fliers know where I mean because you dont need too many fingers let alone toes to count them).
Draw a parallel to your local golf club, with nice bar, nice menu - somewhere to be proud of - the essential social factors are largely missing from aero clubs.
Aero clubs in this country generally(!) give the impression that they are not making enough money (probably because they aren't..) and that the sport attracts people who really can't afford it.
In France for example, a much greater percentage of aero clubs have nice restaurants. These are invariably situated on a busy road and open to the general/ passing public. Many of those in turn will be intrigued enough to want to know more whilst glugging their fine wines and enjoying cuisine that we can only ever dream of.
So, take a look at the successful places and see if they have a steady supply of new punters who 'were just driving by, dropped in for a look/lunch and ended up booking a trial lesson'.
Aviation in this country simple didn't evolve in that way. It has never enjoyed the same support from the government. How many local authorities here have provided a shiny new airport on the edge of town? It happens in France.
It will therefore always remain largely an enthusiast pursuit in the UK and will never gather the social momentum that will make the difference, simply because, in the UK, it happens 'behind hedges or 'at the end of a scruffy potholed road just past the grain silo..'
Try operating your own aircraft, as I do, and you will understand then that the seemingly 'huge' costs charged by aeroclubs simply aint anywhere near enough to provide decent aircraft and decent club facilities.
Only the enthusiasts will stick this, go on to private ownership, pitch up, fly and then go somewhere decent for lunch by car - most likely home again. If its by air then, a handful of places excepted, its over the Channel.
How many people continue to hire after, say, 5 years? Very few.
Its a case of 'do something with your licence or go and do something different'.
Head above parapet and ready for the incoming!
HP
The first impressions of most of our clubs ain't good. So many of them are scruffy sheds with help- yourself coffee/ powdered milk and chipped cups.
Food? Only a small percentage of clubs go this far simply because it aint economical to do so. 95% of those that do tend to offer transport cafe-type grub where lard is the order of the day.
Impressed passenger thus far?
Walk along the flight line past the shiny private owners whizzers and suffer the further disappointment on the face of your passenger when you pitch up to the ubiquitous tired old Cesspit.
'Here it is!'
Oh..nice... (gulp) I'm really looking forward to this (ish).
Climb in, pull the door shut and the door trim closes before the rest of it. Ugh!
OK OK, it ain't the prettiest of pictures and I could certainly draw some nicer ones - hurrah for those (us fliers know where I mean because you dont need too many fingers let alone toes to count them).
Draw a parallel to your local golf club, with nice bar, nice menu - somewhere to be proud of - the essential social factors are largely missing from aero clubs.
Aero clubs in this country generally(!) give the impression that they are not making enough money (probably because they aren't..) and that the sport attracts people who really can't afford it.
In France for example, a much greater percentage of aero clubs have nice restaurants. These are invariably situated on a busy road and open to the general/ passing public. Many of those in turn will be intrigued enough to want to know more whilst glugging their fine wines and enjoying cuisine that we can only ever dream of.
So, take a look at the successful places and see if they have a steady supply of new punters who 'were just driving by, dropped in for a look/lunch and ended up booking a trial lesson'.
Aviation in this country simple didn't evolve in that way. It has never enjoyed the same support from the government. How many local authorities here have provided a shiny new airport on the edge of town? It happens in France.
It will therefore always remain largely an enthusiast pursuit in the UK and will never gather the social momentum that will make the difference, simply because, in the UK, it happens 'behind hedges or 'at the end of a scruffy potholed road just past the grain silo..'
Try operating your own aircraft, as I do, and you will understand then that the seemingly 'huge' costs charged by aeroclubs simply aint anywhere near enough to provide decent aircraft and decent club facilities.
Only the enthusiasts will stick this, go on to private ownership, pitch up, fly and then go somewhere decent for lunch by car - most likely home again. If its by air then, a handful of places excepted, its over the Channel.
How many people continue to hire after, say, 5 years? Very few.
Its a case of 'do something with your licence or go and do something different'.
Head above parapet and ready for the incoming!
HP
Cool Mod
Joined: Apr 1998
Posts: 6,189
Likes: 0
From: 18nm N of LGW
How right you are Hairy.
I had a pearl of an idea once that I would like to build and operate a flying club that was in a class of its own. One that pilots and friends, and SOME - though not all, biz people would use. Not a shack, not a shed but a really nice place with a super lounge, a proper restaurant, great FP facilities, company freq., for incomings with a bar and a place to relax. Good parking with valeting and fuel. A great garden and quality seating, not plastic tables and chairs. A place where all who joined also participated in the well being of the club and treated it with respect.
It would have to be on a an airfield with ILS and good ATC and be for the good of its members and NOT the general public (well, some!) but a place where you go, even if you don't want to fly that particular day.
A really nice place.
I came close one time and people couldn't stay away. Then the airport authorities in a style that was breathtaking decided that this particular airfield did not want priavte aircraft. What a helluva mistake that was. But they soon changed their mind. Then priced the place above the brink of profits - except for themselves.
But I still believe it is possible. I know it is. But..............it MUST be a club first and foremost - not just a flying club where it is just happens to be a convenience. That's not IT!
It would cost a bit but covenants can often take care of that.
Hey ho! I must wake up now!
I had a pearl of an idea once that I would like to build and operate a flying club that was in a class of its own. One that pilots and friends, and SOME - though not all, biz people would use. Not a shack, not a shed but a really nice place with a super lounge, a proper restaurant, great FP facilities, company freq., for incomings with a bar and a place to relax. Good parking with valeting and fuel. A great garden and quality seating, not plastic tables and chairs. A place where all who joined also participated in the well being of the club and treated it with respect.
It would have to be on a an airfield with ILS and good ATC and be for the good of its members and NOT the general public (well, some!) but a place where you go, even if you don't want to fly that particular day.
A really nice place.
I came close one time and people couldn't stay away. Then the airport authorities in a style that was breathtaking decided that this particular airfield did not want priavte aircraft. What a helluva mistake that was. But they soon changed their mind. Then priced the place above the brink of profits - except for themselves.
But I still believe it is possible. I know it is. But..............it MUST be a club first and foremost - not just a flying club where it is just happens to be a convenience. That's not IT!
It would cost a bit but covenants can often take care of that.
Hey ho! I must wake up now!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
From: northants
Ludwig, you've rumbled me! Organise fly-outs eh! As Bob who organised the ABAR found, months of organising just so 30+ others can join you on a flight that would take a few days to organise for yourself. Then leading the way on the rally, more time spent. But hey, it was good fun.
IO540, what is the matter with these people? The flying school I was at had the same attitude. But the new owners welcome private flyers to their fly-outs. They will not oust you from the club if you become a group member or private owner. Afterall there is no perfect aircraft, if you buy into a Pitts S1 for instance, this is useless to take a few friends anywhere. And likewise a PA28 will not perform aerobatics. So you hire the appropriate aircraft when required. You then remain a customer, buying maps, pencils, food drinks etc.. and tell new members what they could do with their new PPL.
Whirly, well done, you lead we will follow.
IO540, what is the matter with these people? The flying school I was at had the same attitude. But the new owners welcome private flyers to their fly-outs. They will not oust you from the club if you become a group member or private owner. Afterall there is no perfect aircraft, if you buy into a Pitts S1 for instance, this is useless to take a few friends anywhere. And likewise a PA28 will not perform aerobatics. So you hire the appropriate aircraft when required. You then remain a customer, buying maps, pencils, food drinks etc.. and tell new members what they could do with their new PPL.
Whirly, well done, you lead we will follow.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
From: London
I think group ownership is the best option for most people. I was lucky to meet a like minded pilot with circa 100 hours, not long after passing my PPL. He introduced me to his group, and for a couple of years, gained experience flying around the country and northern France.
Recently, having decided the group was too big (15 people) we decided to buy something suitable for touring, but cheaper to operate. Now, we have a virtually brand new tri-gear Europa (<30 hours TT) with some nice kit inside. The total price of the a/c was £40k, so we've decided to sell 2 shares (one has sold already) for £10k each. Flying cost are now £25 per hour, which really encourages touring.
For the short period of time I was renting, it was always in the back of my mind how much it was costing. I once paid £160 for 6 circuits with an instructor in a knackered PA28 !! Five or six circuits in a smart, modern Europa is around £20-£25.
Recently, having decided the group was too big (15 people) we decided to buy something suitable for touring, but cheaper to operate. Now, we have a virtually brand new tri-gear Europa (<30 hours TT) with some nice kit inside. The total price of the a/c was £40k, so we've decided to sell 2 shares (one has sold already) for £10k each. Flying cost are now £25 per hour, which really encourages touring.
For the short period of time I was renting, it was always in the back of my mind how much it was costing. I once paid £160 for 6 circuits with an instructor in a knackered PA28 !! Five or six circuits in a smart, modern Europa is around £20-£25.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: The Alpha Quadrant
Hello All
I am a PPL from EGNT and have gone through some of trials and tribulations we all seem to suffer.
I now have 100 hrs in 2 years,training,gained ppl,night and now IMC ongoing and on and on !!!
I too am addicted and hopefully will stay with it, money permitting
I too am having to travel 45 mins to fly 45 mins return and 90 miles total but it is slightly cheaper as we have a slight glitch at NCL. I find it rewarding and a challenge apprehension sets in driving there.. What next ?
No more waffle....
Best regards to you all
HF (a)
I now have 100 hrs in 2 years,training,gained ppl,night and now IMC ongoing and on and on !!!
I too am addicted and hopefully will stay with it, money permitting
I too am having to travel 45 mins to fly 45 mins return and 90 miles total but it is slightly cheaper as we have a slight glitch at NCL. I find it rewarding and a challenge apprehension sets in driving there.. What next ?
No more waffle....
Best regards to you all
HF (a)
Last edited by Hold Foxtrot (again); 13th December 2004 at 12:33.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
A few years ago I very nearly got punched in the face by a CFI because somebody who he regarded as "his" self fly hire customer decided to rent the aircraft which I look after. That school has since gone bust (for all the reasons standard in GA management but in their case there were a few "extras" in which he played a big part) and he has vanished, but that scenario is not untypical where aviation businesses aren't making money. I know of one flying school owner with a convinction for GBH.
Needless to say, I started to do my preflight checks extra carefully after that. It's paid off too, though I can never tell if the missing screws simply dropped out during the previous flight.
Sadly it is the reality of life of too many aircraft owners/operators that they must keep their head down otherwise they can find their hangared aircraft sitting out on the grass one morning.
From time to time one reads a story about something like this in the usual online forums. I can read these stories and I can see there is a LOT which isn't being said. I know of aircraft owners who have been absolutely appallingly treated, but they have waited for years to get a hangar place and they just keep their heads down and make do. Not everybody can come up with the cash to buy their own airfield, or their own hangar
I do freely offer lifts to people and never ask for a penny (a cup of tea maybe ) but I tend to avoid the small group of regular SFH pilots. OTOH long-term SFH pilots aren't the ones that are dropping out; there are very few of them anyway. It is the new PPLs that can do with interesting trips and one doesn't normally come across those unless one hangs around a school/club, where one can be easily accused of poaching, and it tends to require paying up the membership for nothing in return. I love flying for flying, not for hanging around flying clubs.
Obviously the conditions vary greatly between different locations. Mine is just one sample.
Needless to say, I started to do my preflight checks extra carefully after that. It's paid off too, though I can never tell if the missing screws simply dropped out during the previous flight.
Sadly it is the reality of life of too many aircraft owners/operators that they must keep their head down otherwise they can find their hangared aircraft sitting out on the grass one morning.
From time to time one reads a story about something like this in the usual online forums. I can read these stories and I can see there is a LOT which isn't being said. I know of aircraft owners who have been absolutely appallingly treated, but they have waited for years to get a hangar place and they just keep their heads down and make do. Not everybody can come up with the cash to buy their own airfield, or their own hangar
I do freely offer lifts to people and never ask for a penny (a cup of tea maybe
) but I tend to avoid the small group of regular SFH pilots. OTOH long-term SFH pilots aren't the ones that are dropping out; there are very few of them anyway. It is the new PPLs that can do with interesting trips and one doesn't normally come across those unless one hangs around a school/club, where one can be easily accused of poaching, and it tends to require paying up the membership for nothing in return. I love flying for flying, not for hanging around flying clubs.Obviously the conditions vary greatly between different locations. Mine is just one sample.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
From: Dublin
How about those here, who got their PPL this year, get together and pick a destination that they would like to go to, but wouldn't feel comfortable flying to on their own? Maybe a large interntional airport, or maybe it would be foreign.....whatever
A sort of class of 2004 flyin, but a challenging one.
Then those with more experinece here could either
A) help them with their planning, and walk them through what they can expect, or
B) actually fly with them, if that's what they want.
Of course everyone would be welcome to join the trip, and those with more experience making the trip could give preference to those who are still training/dropped out, for their free seats?
So class of 2004.....are you on? Are there many of you here? Where would you suggest going?
dp
A sort of class of 2004 flyin, but a challenging one.
Then those with more experinece here could either
A) help them with their planning, and walk them through what they can expect, or
B) actually fly with them, if that's what they want.
Of course everyone would be welcome to join the trip, and those with more experience making the trip could give preference to those who are still training/dropped out, for their free seats?
So class of 2004.....are you on? Are there many of you here? Where would you suggest going?
dp
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
From: Canada
quote:
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Why can't something along the lines of glidings, bronze, silver, gold award be introduced to further your flying achievement, instead of the IMC, night, twin route that many seem to take.
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The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) Wings Awards Scheme offers four levels of award namely Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum Wings.
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Why can't something along the lines of glidings, bronze, silver, gold award be introduced to further your flying achievement, instead of the IMC, night, twin route that many seem to take.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) Wings Awards Scheme offers four levels of award namely Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum Wings.
Although not internationally recognized, the IAC's Aerobatic Achievement Awards are much more comparable to the FAI sporting badges, and are a proven way of motivating pilots to remain interested and improve their skills.
Spicy Meatball
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,115
Likes: 0
From: Liverpool UK
Just a thought on this thread - I heard one of the retired instructors at our club saying he had a flight this Sunday, so as an inspiration from this thread, I asked him if he would like a flying buddy! He has pleasure flights which enables him to stay current - so this is something to look forward to on Sunday. It would be great (as said) if more people could do this, to new people at the school etc
Cheers,
Maz
Cheers,
Maz
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: berkshire
Hi All , although much of this has been said before I still found this a very interesting post as its very relevant to me at the moment.I passed my ppl last summer and although I haven't done much with it since , mainly due to time and bad weather , I am still very keen to progress my flying.Although now I've passed my ppl its all too clear why so many people end up dropping out , basically for all the reasons that have been said so far. An idea has been going around my mind for a while and I wondered what other people thought.I am suggesting a kind of buddy/mentoring system of 'just passed ppl's' by either willing instructors or experienced flyers.It would be completely voluntary as obviously some people just want to get on and do their own thing , but I'm sure there are others like me who really want to continue to build their skills but are still not very confident of their limits.The involvement could be as much or as little as is required , from simply suggesting new places to go , chatting about routes , weather etc....to sitting down and planning trips and being accompanied on the odd few.If there was such a system running at my club I know I would sign up.I think it would encourage alot of low timers to build their skills until they are more confident and in so doing , keeping them in flying , which can only be good for the clubs.
