Quitting Flying
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Hi All,
Firstly I think that I may be one of these pilots who you are all talking about. I passed about 18 months ago and am close to giving up. I never thought I would, but there you go. And like some of the posters on this very thread have stated, I thought that people who gave up once they had passed ought to be flogged - but now I am potentially one of them.
Where did it all go wrong? Let's start at the beginning.
When I first passed my PPL, I thought great! I am a pilot and I'm am ace! I took up friends and family, and then after meeting another newly qualified PPL, we went flying together - visiting different airfields and stretching the barrier further and further. I loved it.
Then after about a year, things changed. My girlfriend and I moved house, and so my finances were stretched - a common occurrence in aviation I believe. But the major factors in my potential decision (I am about 85% made up in my mind) are as follows - in order of importance to me.
1. The difficulty in keeping current.
At my flying club, the currency requirements are to fly every four weeks, no matter how many hours flown the prevous month. Even if you've done say ten hours one month, but then not flown for a while, then you do a check flight - simple as that. With my job, I can't take time of whenever I feel like it, and so I book in advance. 70% of the time, on my pre-booked day, the weather is Sh*te and so I re-book, but the four weeks is up, and so I've got to go for another check flight with an instructor. Meanwhile, my friend is going through exactly the same thing, and so we haven't flown together for over six months. I am now at the stage of not having flown for five weeks - even though I've been booked in numerous times.
2. Weather
I need say no more.
3. Distance to airfield.
I am a member of three flying clubs (with all of the annual fees etc). One is half an hour away, but is the most expensive. For one hour, they charge £112 + £10 (insurance) + £6 (per landing) and then another £25 if I fly with an instructor. Another airfield only charges £75 with no extras - but the planes are bangers. Gaffer tape jobs some of them! At the third, the price is about £95, but it takes 2 hours to get there - and so if the weather is rubbish, then it’s a four hour round trip totally wasted.
4. Nerves
The less I fly, the more nervous I feel when I fly. For over £100 an hour (which could be spent on all sorts of useful things for the house) I fly around the local area just to keep current. Without my partner in crime, I never venture very far, and so when I'm up there, I think to myself, 'is this really worth it?' The answer is usually 'yes' when on short final, but invariably changes to 'no' on the long drive home, with a severely depleted wallet.
Because I fly so irregularly, and for such a short duration in time, I do not feel that confident at flying. This is probably a hard thing for a student to understand. When you are training, an instructor is always on hand to speak to you - even if you're about to fly off on a solo navex. The buck doesn't stop with you as a student, and you’re usually flying often enough to get over the feeling of unfamiliarity. This all changes after passing. You're on your own and you'd better get used to it.
5. Poor time-keeping by flying clubs.
Every club I have flown to have had poor timekeeping - in fact, in my opinion, it's a problem that is endemic in general aviation as a whole. You turn up (on the one nice day of the summer) and the aircraft is out flying. "Oh they'll be back in an hour," someone tells you, and so you sit and wait for ages, watching the clouds thicken, and the time tick steadily onwards, and then it arrives - two hours late, and it's raining.
6. The elitist attitude of some flyers.
One story sums it up. I head about this from a friend.
At a busy general aviation airfield, the weather was pretty poor. Even for pilots with an IMC, it was proving difficult to land at. So imagine the clubhouse, filled with Mr Elite and Mr Uppity. They are chatting loudly.
"I wouldn't be out in this Mr Uppity."
"No," agreed his pal.
And then they overheard the radio crackling away, and were aghast that a pilot was actually making an approach in his C172.
"Idiot!" said Mr uppity.
"Yes." agreed his pal. "Imbecile!"
But they both watched the aircraft land safely and taxi in. As the young pilot climbed out of his aircraft, the pair started talking loudly together berating the young pilot for such a foolhardy landing. "He should be stripped of his licence!" Mr Elite stated, "and I might just report the young upstart!”
No one else in the clubhouse said anything though, most didn't dare interrupt the gruesome twosome, and so in walks our young pilot.
"Hello," he said. "Any chance of a cuppa?"
And that's when he received the berating of his life. After listening in shock to what was being thrust at him, he turned to Mr Elite. "How do you know I haven't got an Instrument Rating?"
Mr Elite guffawed and said something along the lines of 'how could you possibly have an IR! You’re only just out of school."
"Actually," said the young man. "I do have an IR, and not only that, I have an ATPL. I fly 737's for a living."
Which, of course, shut up Mr Elite and Mr Uppity?
And rightly so!
7. Lack of funds.
Though I could just about afford to keep flying, it would be just above the legal currency requirements - which in my opining, is nowhere near safe enough. And like I've said elsewhere, flying so little means that it’s not as much fun because it's all a little scary.
So there you go. My reasons. Thank you for being patient.
Regards
Firstly I think that I may be one of these pilots who you are all talking about. I passed about 18 months ago and am close to giving up. I never thought I would, but there you go. And like some of the posters on this very thread have stated, I thought that people who gave up once they had passed ought to be flogged - but now I am potentially one of them.
Where did it all go wrong? Let's start at the beginning.
When I first passed my PPL, I thought great! I am a pilot and I'm am ace! I took up friends and family, and then after meeting another newly qualified PPL, we went flying together - visiting different airfields and stretching the barrier further and further. I loved it.
Then after about a year, things changed. My girlfriend and I moved house, and so my finances were stretched - a common occurrence in aviation I believe. But the major factors in my potential decision (I am about 85% made up in my mind) are as follows - in order of importance to me.
1. The difficulty in keeping current.
At my flying club, the currency requirements are to fly every four weeks, no matter how many hours flown the prevous month. Even if you've done say ten hours one month, but then not flown for a while, then you do a check flight - simple as that. With my job, I can't take time of whenever I feel like it, and so I book in advance. 70% of the time, on my pre-booked day, the weather is Sh*te and so I re-book, but the four weeks is up, and so I've got to go for another check flight with an instructor. Meanwhile, my friend is going through exactly the same thing, and so we haven't flown together for over six months. I am now at the stage of not having flown for five weeks - even though I've been booked in numerous times.
2. Weather
I need say no more.
3. Distance to airfield.
I am a member of three flying clubs (with all of the annual fees etc). One is half an hour away, but is the most expensive. For one hour, they charge £112 + £10 (insurance) + £6 (per landing) and then another £25 if I fly with an instructor. Another airfield only charges £75 with no extras - but the planes are bangers. Gaffer tape jobs some of them! At the third, the price is about £95, but it takes 2 hours to get there - and so if the weather is rubbish, then it’s a four hour round trip totally wasted.
4. Nerves
The less I fly, the more nervous I feel when I fly. For over £100 an hour (which could be spent on all sorts of useful things for the house) I fly around the local area just to keep current. Without my partner in crime, I never venture very far, and so when I'm up there, I think to myself, 'is this really worth it?' The answer is usually 'yes' when on short final, but invariably changes to 'no' on the long drive home, with a severely depleted wallet.
Because I fly so irregularly, and for such a short duration in time, I do not feel that confident at flying. This is probably a hard thing for a student to understand. When you are training, an instructor is always on hand to speak to you - even if you're about to fly off on a solo navex. The buck doesn't stop with you as a student, and you’re usually flying often enough to get over the feeling of unfamiliarity. This all changes after passing. You're on your own and you'd better get used to it.
5. Poor time-keeping by flying clubs.
Every club I have flown to have had poor timekeeping - in fact, in my opinion, it's a problem that is endemic in general aviation as a whole. You turn up (on the one nice day of the summer) and the aircraft is out flying. "Oh they'll be back in an hour," someone tells you, and so you sit and wait for ages, watching the clouds thicken, and the time tick steadily onwards, and then it arrives - two hours late, and it's raining.
6. The elitist attitude of some flyers.
One story sums it up. I head about this from a friend.
At a busy general aviation airfield, the weather was pretty poor. Even for pilots with an IMC, it was proving difficult to land at. So imagine the clubhouse, filled with Mr Elite and Mr Uppity. They are chatting loudly.
"I wouldn't be out in this Mr Uppity."
"No," agreed his pal.
And then they overheard the radio crackling away, and were aghast that a pilot was actually making an approach in his C172.
"Idiot!" said Mr uppity.
"Yes." agreed his pal. "Imbecile!"
But they both watched the aircraft land safely and taxi in. As the young pilot climbed out of his aircraft, the pair started talking loudly together berating the young pilot for such a foolhardy landing. "He should be stripped of his licence!" Mr Elite stated, "and I might just report the young upstart!”
No one else in the clubhouse said anything though, most didn't dare interrupt the gruesome twosome, and so in walks our young pilot.
"Hello," he said. "Any chance of a cuppa?"
And that's when he received the berating of his life. After listening in shock to what was being thrust at him, he turned to Mr Elite. "How do you know I haven't got an Instrument Rating?"
Mr Elite guffawed and said something along the lines of 'how could you possibly have an IR! You’re only just out of school."
"Actually," said the young man. "I do have an IR, and not only that, I have an ATPL. I fly 737's for a living."
Which, of course, shut up Mr Elite and Mr Uppity?
And rightly so!
7. Lack of funds.
Though I could just about afford to keep flying, it would be just above the legal currency requirements - which in my opining, is nowhere near safe enough. And like I've said elsewhere, flying so little means that it’s not as much fun because it's all a little scary.
So there you go. My reasons. Thank you for being patient.
Regards
Flock1 reminds me of an occasion when I had an elderly idjit try to fly into the back of me whilst I was landing at the end of an air test of an instructor's private aeroplane at Sywell.
He and I went over for a chat with this pilot who was about 70 and whose first words when I asked for a word were "I've got ten thousand hours".
The expression on his face when the instructor whose aeroplane I'd been flying - who was about 21 but looked about 16 told this fool that he was a PPL examiner was really quite priceless.
Not to deny that there are many superb pilots out there in their seventies or older - just not that one.
This is of course largely off-topic, other than people with that attitude around clubrooms is hardly calculated to encourage new youngsters into the joys of private aviation.
However flock1's post brings a few further thoughts to my mind:-
(1) Do flying clubs like to tell you that there are many other ways of flying than renting incredibly expensive club 172s and PA28s. For example PFA aircraft, large syndicates, microlights, gliders (for that matter syndicates on PFA aircraft, microlights, etc.) ....
I fly three aircraft regularly. One is a PA28 in a large syndicate costing me about £60/hr (based upon the 3 hours per month I fly in it), another is a small 2-seat taildragger (on a permit) in a smaller syndicate which similarly calculated costs me about £23/hr, the last is my own, a 2-seat microlight, and costs me about £500/yr plus fuel at around £12/hr. Okay there are purchase costs in there - but shares in our taildragger are currently going for £250 - or about 2 hours at Flock's quoted club rates. Even the PA28 share only cost me £2k a couple of years ago and I could probably sell it now for around £2.5k. Any way you look at it, all of these are far cheaper than club rental
(2) Flying is invariably cheaper and more hassle free at smaller club strips than big regional fields. I think this message doesn't always get out.
(3) Punctuality is a virtual impossibility in GA - for many sound reasons, these sort of realities need to be communicated early to any student pilot - and qualified pilots need to be educated in being realistic about this.
G
He and I went over for a chat with this pilot who was about 70 and whose first words when I asked for a word were "I've got ten thousand hours".
The expression on his face when the instructor whose aeroplane I'd been flying - who was about 21 but looked about 16 told this fool that he was a PPL examiner was really quite priceless.
Not to deny that there are many superb pilots out there in their seventies or older - just not that one.
This is of course largely off-topic, other than people with that attitude around clubrooms is hardly calculated to encourage new youngsters into the joys of private aviation.
However flock1's post brings a few further thoughts to my mind:-
(1) Do flying clubs like to tell you that there are many other ways of flying than renting incredibly expensive club 172s and PA28s. For example PFA aircraft, large syndicates, microlights, gliders (for that matter syndicates on PFA aircraft, microlights, etc.) ....
I fly three aircraft regularly. One is a PA28 in a large syndicate costing me about £60/hr (based upon the 3 hours per month I fly in it), another is a small 2-seat taildragger (on a permit) in a smaller syndicate which similarly calculated costs me about £23/hr, the last is my own, a 2-seat microlight, and costs me about £500/yr plus fuel at around £12/hr. Okay there are purchase costs in there - but shares in our taildragger are currently going for £250 - or about 2 hours at Flock's quoted club rates. Even the PA28 share only cost me £2k a couple of years ago and I could probably sell it now for around £2.5k. Any way you look at it, all of these are far cheaper than club rental
(2) Flying is invariably cheaper and more hassle free at smaller club strips than big regional fields. I think this message doesn't always get out.
(3) Punctuality is a virtual impossibility in GA - for many sound reasons, these sort of realities need to be communicated early to any student pilot - and qualified pilots need to be educated in being realistic about this.
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 6th Dec 2004 at 16:45.
The Original Whirly
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OK, OK, OK.
Now, what can WE do about all this?
When did you last chat to a nervous looking new club member, or a student, or someone else who looked a bit lonely at a flying club? When did you last offer to take someone flying with you, someone you don't know or who you just met, I mean? When did you last give advice to a newish PPL who wasn't sure whether they should fly, who was being ignored by instructors as they weren't a student any more?
"They" can't do everything. Maybe "we" can help. Way back, another PPL and I persuaded a school to put up a notice for people to sign if they wanted to share flights. I don't know if it worked or not, but we told the school they'd get more flying hourts booked that way, and they liked the idea.
I spend quite a lot of time chatting to people at flying schools. But I think I'm quite unusual - an extravert who likes chatting to people as much as I like flying. Some of them seem quite relieved to be talked to, especially if they're very young, very old, or female. There's a reason why "girlz" don't feel at home in flying schools. We get ignored, far too much of the time.
All the other reasons we've mentioned apply, but the lack of a social scene definitely doesn't help, and...dare I say it...flying folk are not always the most friendly, until they know you've done enough flying to be an anorak.
Now, what can WE do about all this?
When did you last chat to a nervous looking new club member, or a student, or someone else who looked a bit lonely at a flying club? When did you last offer to take someone flying with you, someone you don't know or who you just met, I mean? When did you last give advice to a newish PPL who wasn't sure whether they should fly, who was being ignored by instructors as they weren't a student any more?
"They" can't do everything. Maybe "we" can help. Way back, another PPL and I persuaded a school to put up a notice for people to sign if they wanted to share flights. I don't know if it worked or not, but we told the school they'd get more flying hourts booked that way, and they liked the idea.
I spend quite a lot of time chatting to people at flying schools. But I think I'm quite unusual - an extravert who likes chatting to people as much as I like flying. Some of them seem quite relieved to be talked to, especially if they're very young, very old, or female. There's a reason why "girlz" don't feel at home in flying schools. We get ignored, far too much of the time.
All the other reasons we've mentioned apply, but the lack of a social scene definitely doesn't help, and...dare I say it...flying folk are not always the most friendly, until they know you've done enough flying to be an anorak.
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I think your sentiment is great whirly and nice to see, but the problem does not just lie with pilots no approaching other pilots it is often the attitude of the flying school.
Its fine when a more experianced pilots turns up and offers to fly with someone if they are using a school aircraft but when a private owner offers the same experiance they are positivley frowned on for "stealing" the punters from the school. This then leaves the inexperianced flyer in the position of peeing of the school and flying with the private owner which could turn out to be a limited opportunity or stay in the same situation. This has happened to me on a couple of occassions.
To be fair there are a few schools that make an effort to retain the interest of flyers, Northants School of Flying as one example make sterling efforts to retain flyers with a very busy schedule of flyouts throughout the year to interesting places. We attend everyone of these as a private owner usually in the twin. This gives the newer pilots the opportunity to see there are more things to achieve and to share ideas. The only problem for a lot of people with these type of flyouts is that they happen during the weekend as the schools want to preserve the weekend revenue line. Sensible business practice but restrictive to a lot of people.
Other schools I have encountered are just interested in your money and once you stop spending you are virtually ostracised. This does not do much for retaining new flyers!
Its fine when a more experianced pilots turns up and offers to fly with someone if they are using a school aircraft but when a private owner offers the same experiance they are positivley frowned on for "stealing" the punters from the school. This then leaves the inexperianced flyer in the position of peeing of the school and flying with the private owner which could turn out to be a limited opportunity or stay in the same situation. This has happened to me on a couple of occassions.
To be fair there are a few schools that make an effort to retain the interest of flyers, Northants School of Flying as one example make sterling efforts to retain flyers with a very busy schedule of flyouts throughout the year to interesting places. We attend everyone of these as a private owner usually in the twin. This gives the newer pilots the opportunity to see there are more things to achieve and to share ideas. The only problem for a lot of people with these type of flyouts is that they happen during the weekend as the schools want to preserve the weekend revenue line. Sensible business practice but restrictive to a lot of people.
Other schools I have encountered are just interested in your money and once you stop spending you are virtually ostracised. This does not do much for retaining new flyers!
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J.A.F.O. Thanks for the clarfication.
More to the point. Whirly's right as ever. I'm sure aspects of this topic has been through several threads and always there is a sad tale of unfriendly clubs, lack of encouragement or imagination beyond the small fleet of training Cessnas. Perhaps I was lucky, flying initially in a small gliding club, such that I've gravitated (rather literally) towards the smaller, grassier fields of GA, where in general there have been bowls full of pprune-y wit and wisdom.
One tries to pass on what's been received - friendliness and encouragement especially.
A spare seat always helps, especially if one's flying something a little different from the recipient's usual steed, or flying in a different milieu.
More to the point. Whirly's right as ever. I'm sure aspects of this topic has been through several threads and always there is a sad tale of unfriendly clubs, lack of encouragement or imagination beyond the small fleet of training Cessnas. Perhaps I was lucky, flying initially in a small gliding club, such that I've gravitated (rather literally) towards the smaller, grassier fields of GA, where in general there have been bowls full of pprune-y wit and wisdom.
One tries to pass on what's been received - friendliness and encouragement especially.
A spare seat always helps, especially if one's flying something a little different from the recipient's usual steed, or flying in a different milieu.
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Part of the problem may be to do with availability of aircraft too.
Lets face it....there are only so many places you can go on a 1.5 hour round trip. More than that, and you must stop somewhere, at least for a couple of hours, if not over night, simply to justify the cost.
Unfortunately many clubs don't like you taking an aircraft away for much longer than it will be flying...and even if they do, you have to book way in advance to get it free for a day or two.
Which leaves many renters running out of new and interesting places to go fly to.
dp
Lets face it....there are only so many places you can go on a 1.5 hour round trip. More than that, and you must stop somewhere, at least for a couple of hours, if not over night, simply to justify the cost.
Unfortunately many clubs don't like you taking an aircraft away for much longer than it will be flying...and even if they do, you have to book way in advance to get it free for a day or two.
Which leaves many renters running out of new and interesting places to go fly to.
dp
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There's a reason why "girlz" don't feel at home in flying schools. We get ignored, far too much of the time.
I suppose that being in a confined space (a C152 is as confined as I'd like to be) with a bloke in a smart uniform who will earn way more than the average teenager when he manages to unfreeze his fATPL has its attractions....
Macho attitudes are of course offputting to a lot of women too....
But seriously, yes, taking students up is a great idea, and the easiest to do. However bose-x is dead right - it will be frowned upon at the great majority of places.
There's no way forward I can see.
To bring in wealthier customers, one would have to start with a regulatory overhaul, FAA-style. Bring GPS in fully, abolish the silly slide rule.... Presently any of them that DO walk in will just quietly laugh. 20 years?
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I suppose that being in a confined space (a C152 is as confined as I'd like to be) with a bloke in a smart uniform who will earn way more than the average teenager when he manages to unfreeze his fATPL has its attractions....
The characters like that I've met are generally a bit too in love with their image to give the girls a second glance, even in a 152! 
Or maybe it's just me!!
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I haven't read all the posts here so pardon me if I repeat something already said, but I agree with what a few of the folks here have written. The goal during training is to get your PPL. Once you get and are on the back side of that gate, you're on your own with no discussion from anyone of what you're going to do with it now. I left flying almost immediately after getting my PPL (for the reasons posted above but also because I got stationed in Korea which, with it's air defense network, didn't seem like a good place to take up flying again!).
Flying schools and clubs could do themselves some good if they thought about students in a different way, giving some real thought to how to retain people after they get their tickets. Organized fly-outs are one thing. I belong to an excellent club, but the flying school part is still regarded as a seperate entity in the minds of most members. However, ee had a member organize a few "new PPL" fly-outs which went down a treat.
I think much of it is about the community. If it weren't for the people in my club and their encouragement, I probably wouldn't be flying today. But I found some like minded people who are really enthusiastic and that has made all the difference. If your club or flying location doesn't have a social atmosphere, take it upon yourself to help create one. Nothing is lonelier than an airport where the pilots show up, fly, and go home. Most people are social animals and, given an opportunity to sit and talk about flying for a couple of hours would probably do so. What about a "club" evening down at the nearest pub on Thursday nights, for instance? From there you could organize group fly-outs, challenges and activities to keep flying fun (how about a flying treasure hunt or something like that?)
Anyway, where I am now has no social scene - it's just an airport, and it's not nearly as much fun and I haven't flown nearly as much as I used to. I can't help but think the two are linked.
Pitts2112
Flying schools and clubs could do themselves some good if they thought about students in a different way, giving some real thought to how to retain people after they get their tickets. Organized fly-outs are one thing. I belong to an excellent club, but the flying school part is still regarded as a seperate entity in the minds of most members. However, ee had a member organize a few "new PPL" fly-outs which went down a treat.
I think much of it is about the community. If it weren't for the people in my club and their encouragement, I probably wouldn't be flying today. But I found some like minded people who are really enthusiastic and that has made all the difference. If your club or flying location doesn't have a social atmosphere, take it upon yourself to help create one. Nothing is lonelier than an airport where the pilots show up, fly, and go home. Most people are social animals and, given an opportunity to sit and talk about flying for a couple of hours would probably do so. What about a "club" evening down at the nearest pub on Thursday nights, for instance? From there you could organize group fly-outs, challenges and activities to keep flying fun (how about a flying treasure hunt or something like that?)
Anyway, where I am now has no social scene - it's just an airport, and it's not nearly as much fun and I haven't flown nearly as much as I used to. I can't help but think the two are linked.
Pitts2112
I wonder if Pitts has put his finger right on the pulse there.
A flying school (even if it is called a club) is basically a money making venture - and quite right that it is.
A flying club, consisting of individual members sharing their love of flying is a quite different thing. To work it needs (a) members with something and somewhere to fly, and (b) a minimum of commercial interference from anybody trying to make money from their flying.
I'd be willing to bet that anywhere with a proper club, separate from any school, has a far lower dropout rate than a pure school (even, as I said, if it calls itself a club).
Thinking of a couple of good examples, Sywell (the Aviator hotel) or Popham (clubhouse) are the sort of places you actually want to be. Many PFA struts or microlight clubs create the same sort of environment; but most schools with a "sort of club" tacked on do not.
G
A flying school (even if it is called a club) is basically a money making venture - and quite right that it is.
A flying club, consisting of individual members sharing their love of flying is a quite different thing. To work it needs (a) members with something and somewhere to fly, and (b) a minimum of commercial interference from anybody trying to make money from their flying.
I'd be willing to bet that anywhere with a proper club, separate from any school, has a far lower dropout rate than a pure school (even, as I said, if it calls itself a club).
Thinking of a couple of good examples, Sywell (the Aviator hotel) or Popham (clubhouse) are the sort of places you actually want to be. Many PFA struts or microlight clubs create the same sort of environment; but most schools with a "sort of club" tacked on do not.
G
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Gosh, you must come to the place where I did my PPL. While I cannot vouch for whether anyone talks to them, girl students are much fought over and quite a few end up pregnant
I suppose that being in a confined space (a C152 is as confined as I'd like to be) with a bloke in a smart uniform who will earn way more than the average teenager when he manages to unfreeze his fATPL has its attractions....
I suppose that being in a confined space (a C152 is as confined as I'd like to be) with a bloke in a smart uniform who will earn way more than the average teenager when he manages to unfreeze his fATPL has its attractions....
Points all taken, and all probably true, about schools' attitudes. But I still think improving the social "scene" has a lot to do with individuals. Look at the popularity of PPRuNe, the Flyer Forums, etc. What do we do? Chat. And give and get given advice. And occasionally, just occasionally, meet ang go flying.
If I think about flying to another airfield - and I can do it because of small group, cheap flying, good availability, enough experience - I sometimes decide not to bother because I know I'll arrive, talk to no-one, fly there, pay my landing fee, talk to no-one, have coffee, leave. It's fun, but at £100+ per hour! I don't think so. And if I didn't have cheaper access and usually someone to fly with, I probably wouldn't bother. And I'm probably as addicted to flying as...most of us here. And I suspect my experience is multiplied by.....a large proportion of those who gave up recently.
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It's been just over a year since I got my PPL and in that time I have been renting from the club I learnt at. Mostly because of the weather I have done far fewer hours than I intended to, and because of the need to get the aeroplane back for the next booking, I have only flown fairly locally. Someone said that many PPLs consider 2 hours to be a long flight - well it is when the club want their aeroplane back in one hour! Fortunately my club seem happy for me to take an aeroplane away for 4 hours - I haven't asked for a whole day yet!
It would be very easy for me to give up flying, except that I have grand plans to buy a share, get an IMC (and IR eventually) and use the aircraft as a means of transport rather than an expensive way to buy a cup of tea! I'm not in a position to buy a share just yet, so for this year I've set myself goals that I can achieve while still renting - flying different types, fly a minimum number of hours, visit a minimum number of airfields etc. As has been mentioned by a few posters, I think the lack of goals post PPL is a real problem.
The social scene at my club is pretty much non-existent, but I have found the instructors very helpful and they do seem to take an interest even though I've got my PPL. If the weather looks a bit iffy, they'll quite happily talk about what is was like when they were up 15 minutes ago etc, and on a number of occasions when I've wanted to go up but the crosswind has been really strong, they've come up with me for a few circuits for free. They've actually been much better since I got the PPL then they were when I was learning!
I'm interested in the comments that girls are ignored when they turn up at flying clubs. In my experience people at flying clubs are very keen to talk to the "rare breed" when I turn up. It always makes me rather self-conscious about my parking when everyone stops and looks at me when I taxi in! I have never found the flying environment to be at all sexist - but then I work in a male dominated industry, so maybe having been in that environment for years, my attitude doesn't encourage sexism.
In short, I think letting your PPL lapse is a personal thing, and there's probably not a lot clubs can do to prevent it. You either really want to fly, or you don't. I don't think nicer machines etc would fundamentally change that. If you don't have goals or really love being in the air, then it's an expensive and time-consuming hobby, which is dependant on good planning and reasonable weather and, as such, requires a level of commitment that most other pastimes don't.
It would be very easy for me to give up flying, except that I have grand plans to buy a share, get an IMC (and IR eventually) and use the aircraft as a means of transport rather than an expensive way to buy a cup of tea! I'm not in a position to buy a share just yet, so for this year I've set myself goals that I can achieve while still renting - flying different types, fly a minimum number of hours, visit a minimum number of airfields etc. As has been mentioned by a few posters, I think the lack of goals post PPL is a real problem.
The social scene at my club is pretty much non-existent, but I have found the instructors very helpful and they do seem to take an interest even though I've got my PPL. If the weather looks a bit iffy, they'll quite happily talk about what is was like when they were up 15 minutes ago etc, and on a number of occasions when I've wanted to go up but the crosswind has been really strong, they've come up with me for a few circuits for free. They've actually been much better since I got the PPL then they were when I was learning!
I'm interested in the comments that girls are ignored when they turn up at flying clubs. In my experience people at flying clubs are very keen to talk to the "rare breed" when I turn up. It always makes me rather self-conscious about my parking when everyone stops and looks at me when I taxi in! I have never found the flying environment to be at all sexist - but then I work in a male dominated industry, so maybe having been in that environment for years, my attitude doesn't encourage sexism.
In short, I think letting your PPL lapse is a personal thing, and there's probably not a lot clubs can do to prevent it. You either really want to fly, or you don't. I don't think nicer machines etc would fundamentally change that. If you don't have goals or really love being in the air, then it's an expensive and time-consuming hobby, which is dependant on good planning and reasonable weather and, as such, requires a level of commitment that most other pastimes don't.
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Re the diff between a "school" and a "club": I can't see there can be much.
Neither can lose money in the long run, so both must charge enough to cover their fixed costs.
I suppose a "school" might have an absent owner who is looking for a return on his capital (the traditional business scenario) but if the owner is working there then there's no difference between him drawing a salary and a "club" employing a full-time manager drawing a salary.
So there's no difference. Given the same expenses, they should both charge the same amount.
Of course, a "club" will have a bar
Neither can lose money in the long run, so both must charge enough to cover their fixed costs.
I suppose a "school" might have an absent owner who is looking for a return on his capital (the traditional business scenario) but if the owner is working there then there's no difference between him drawing a salary and a "club" employing a full-time manager drawing a salary.
So there's no difference. Given the same expenses, they should both charge the same amount.
Of course, a "club" will have a bar
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I think the thing that saved me, and has kept me flying (rather than drifting away to another hobby) was joining an inexpensive group:
I did my PPL in the usual way, quickly followed by a night rating, IMC and conversion onto a four-seater. I flew for the usual half-hour or one-hour trips often with friends who hadn't ever been in a light aircraft and then did what I thought was the next step and got a multi-engine rating.
I only ever did one "trip" in the multi and landed back at the school at lunchtime having spent about £500 in hire charges and landing fees during the morning. Even paying with a credit card (it doesn't feel like real money then does it?) I left the desk wondering what on earth I was doing spending this sum of money. By co-incidence, there was an advert for a share in a group aircraft on the notice board that I passed on the way out. The cost of the sixth share was less than £2000, and the hourly rate about £20 per hour. The aircraft was a Jodel, but I was so ignorent at that time that I didn't even know whether it was a single- seater or a two-seater. I soon found out it was a two seater and bought the share.
This transformed my flying. I could now fly away for the whole day or even several days with my wife and suddenly we realised the privilege of being able to fly. We flew up to the Scotish border for Sunday lunch, down to a farm strip in the west country to stay with friends, saving a gruelling drive there and back. We few to the Isle of Man for the day, and so on. We saw wonderful views like flying over the lake district, and flying along Hadrian's Wall. We even flew to a farm strip near my wife's parents, saving a 400 mile drive each time.
This enabled us to get some real advantage from my PPL licence, so I didn't drift away; I kept flying. Yes, we had to cancel some trips because of weather, and once we had to stay an extra day because of weather, but at last we could actually use an aircraft as a more pleasant alternative to the car.
Without joining a group, I would never have been able to afford all of these trips, even without the difficulties of availability (more on that later).
I was lucky in that I saw an advert at exactly the right time and therefore picked up the phone, spoke to the other group members and joined. I had obviously seen adverts for group shares before, but it seemed a bit of a closed world to me and I had assumed you had to have many years of flying credentials to join. I now know that this isn't the case and our group has had many members with less than 70 hours total time, but I think many new ppls never get to hear about group flying and (as I did) think it is difficult to get into a group.
I can understand that flying schools don't have any incentive to educate their students about the advantages of group flying, but I think this is just another bit of shortsighted thinking on their part.
Now, my suggestions on availability:
I don't think that it is the cost of flying on its own that is the whole story. If you pick somewhere that isn't easy to drive to, e.g. the Isle of Man, or Le Touquet, or even the Isle of Wight, depending where you are in the country, there will be somewhere like this that is within one hour's flying time in a typical four seater. If you hire this aircraft at typical rates, and you go for the whole day, the costs between 2,3 or 4 people are actually quite reasonable; less than two hours hire, plus a landing fee. The difficulty is that most schools (and clubs) want you to pay for a minimum of say, 3 hours on a weekday, or 4 hours at a weekend if you want the aircraft for the whole day. This then begins to get expensive and is often a non-starter. However, I see lots of aircraft that spend the whole day (and sometimes days on end during the week) without being untied.
What the schools need to do is to have a "standby" system, where if no-one has booked a particular aircraft by 5pm the previous day, then you can have it for the whole day, and just pay for the hours it is flown. i.e. no minimums.
Yes, this means that you will sometimes book the aircraft on this standby basis, and then get "bumped" by more profitable bookings at the last minute, but hey, we are used to having to cancel for other things like the weather, aircraft tech problems etc.
I managed to get this arrangement with one school and managed a trip for four people to Old Warden for one of the flying days. The aircraft was a lovely C182, and the cost per person for the flying part of the trip (40 minutes each way) seemed small for such a fantastic day out. I've never heard of anyone else using this "standby" system of booking, but surely it makes sense for both the customer and the school.
Why not ask your local club / school if you can hire in this "standby" basis. It is when you can take an aircraft away for the whole day (or longer) that the real advantages of your licence begin to appear.
I did my PPL in the usual way, quickly followed by a night rating, IMC and conversion onto a four-seater. I flew for the usual half-hour or one-hour trips often with friends who hadn't ever been in a light aircraft and then did what I thought was the next step and got a multi-engine rating.
I only ever did one "trip" in the multi and landed back at the school at lunchtime having spent about £500 in hire charges and landing fees during the morning. Even paying with a credit card (it doesn't feel like real money then does it?) I left the desk wondering what on earth I was doing spending this sum of money. By co-incidence, there was an advert for a share in a group aircraft on the notice board that I passed on the way out. The cost of the sixth share was less than £2000, and the hourly rate about £20 per hour. The aircraft was a Jodel, but I was so ignorent at that time that I didn't even know whether it was a single- seater or a two-seater. I soon found out it was a two seater and bought the share.
This transformed my flying. I could now fly away for the whole day or even several days with my wife and suddenly we realised the privilege of being able to fly. We flew up to the Scotish border for Sunday lunch, down to a farm strip in the west country to stay with friends, saving a gruelling drive there and back. We few to the Isle of Man for the day, and so on. We saw wonderful views like flying over the lake district, and flying along Hadrian's Wall. We even flew to a farm strip near my wife's parents, saving a 400 mile drive each time.
This enabled us to get some real advantage from my PPL licence, so I didn't drift away; I kept flying. Yes, we had to cancel some trips because of weather, and once we had to stay an extra day because of weather, but at last we could actually use an aircraft as a more pleasant alternative to the car.
Without joining a group, I would never have been able to afford all of these trips, even without the difficulties of availability (more on that later).
I was lucky in that I saw an advert at exactly the right time and therefore picked up the phone, spoke to the other group members and joined. I had obviously seen adverts for group shares before, but it seemed a bit of a closed world to me and I had assumed you had to have many years of flying credentials to join. I now know that this isn't the case and our group has had many members with less than 70 hours total time, but I think many new ppls never get to hear about group flying and (as I did) think it is difficult to get into a group.
I can understand that flying schools don't have any incentive to educate their students about the advantages of group flying, but I think this is just another bit of shortsighted thinking on their part.
Now, my suggestions on availability:
I don't think that it is the cost of flying on its own that is the whole story. If you pick somewhere that isn't easy to drive to, e.g. the Isle of Man, or Le Touquet, or even the Isle of Wight, depending where you are in the country, there will be somewhere like this that is within one hour's flying time in a typical four seater. If you hire this aircraft at typical rates, and you go for the whole day, the costs between 2,3 or 4 people are actually quite reasonable; less than two hours hire, plus a landing fee. The difficulty is that most schools (and clubs) want you to pay for a minimum of say, 3 hours on a weekday, or 4 hours at a weekend if you want the aircraft for the whole day. This then begins to get expensive and is often a non-starter. However, I see lots of aircraft that spend the whole day (and sometimes days on end during the week) without being untied.
What the schools need to do is to have a "standby" system, where if no-one has booked a particular aircraft by 5pm the previous day, then you can have it for the whole day, and just pay for the hours it is flown. i.e. no minimums.
Yes, this means that you will sometimes book the aircraft on this standby basis, and then get "bumped" by more profitable bookings at the last minute, but hey, we are used to having to cancel for other things like the weather, aircraft tech problems etc.
I managed to get this arrangement with one school and managed a trip for four people to Old Warden for one of the flying days. The aircraft was a lovely C182, and the cost per person for the flying part of the trip (40 minutes each way) seemed small for such a fantastic day out. I've never heard of anyone else using this "standby" system of booking, but surely it makes sense for both the customer and the school.
Why not ask your local club / school if you can hire in this "standby" basis. It is when you can take an aircraft away for the whole day (or longer) that the real advantages of your licence begin to appear.
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IO540,
I have to disagree with you there. The economics may be similar as you say, but there is a huge difference between a school and a club. Take Leicester. Definitely a club. Pick any rainy, drizzly Saturday afternoon where not a VFR airplane in the country has moved and you'll find the Leicester clubhouse packed. It's as much a club as a golf club or any other kind. In some respects, flying is just the excuse for the club to exist! And there's usually a large dose of time spent in the club bar before and after every flight.
Also, there's a healthy stable of owner operated airplanes mixed in with the club fleet and the instructors are an essential part of the fabric of the club, even if most members only fly with them for their BFR. There's curry night on Thursdays and events all year long. White Waltham, I understand, is similar.
At these clubs business is taking place but it feels more like flying is taking place, whereas a school is where business takes place and it feels like it. Leicester has a soul and character, a school doesn't.
I also agree with QNH in that joining a cheap group is what saved me, and finding the kind of flying I wanted. If PA28s at £100 an hour were all that were available to me, I wouldn't bother. But if a Taylorcraft for strip flying at £40 an hour is there, you can't keep me on the ground!
Pitts2112
I have to disagree with you there. The economics may be similar as you say, but there is a huge difference between a school and a club. Take Leicester. Definitely a club. Pick any rainy, drizzly Saturday afternoon where not a VFR airplane in the country has moved and you'll find the Leicester clubhouse packed. It's as much a club as a golf club or any other kind. In some respects, flying is just the excuse for the club to exist! And there's usually a large dose of time spent in the club bar before and after every flight.
Also, there's a healthy stable of owner operated airplanes mixed in with the club fleet and the instructors are an essential part of the fabric of the club, even if most members only fly with them for their BFR. There's curry night on Thursdays and events all year long. White Waltham, I understand, is similar.
At these clubs business is taking place but it feels more like flying is taking place, whereas a school is where business takes place and it feels like it. Leicester has a soul and character, a school doesn't.
I also agree with QNH in that joining a cheap group is what saved me, and finding the kind of flying I wanted. If PA28s at £100 an hour were all that were available to me, I wouldn't bother. But if a Taylorcraft for strip flying at £40 an hour is there, you can't keep me on the ground!
Pitts2112
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Going back to the original issue about freshly-minted PPLs giving up soon after qualifying, one point that is common to many of the views expressed is money. Two or three of the previous poster have indicated that joining a cheap group was the saviour in their flying, and really this is the nub of a lot of the problems. The inability or unwillingness of Flying Schools to allow their post PPL’ers to take an aircraft at short or any other notice for a three day jolly, but only fly it for a couple of hours boils down to sound business practice; what is the margin in having an aircraft sit on the ground at Le Touquet for three days after an hours flight when it can be in the air say six hours a day doing training, trial lessons or hour long PPL hire – none at all.
The ideal solution if the three day trip is your desire would obviously be to own your own, but that means costs.
Another reason covered above include the frankly aged and crappy state of the large part of the UK GA fleet. Most flying school owner would be delighted to have a gleaming, well maintained fleet with no empty nav/comm. slots on the dash and perhaps a couple of a/c spare to cover unforeseen technical problems. In general, the only thing stopping them is the business economics of making enough money from the fleet to make it a viable proposition, and why, because the vast majority on GA want to fly on the cheap.
It matters not whether it is a club or school, cheap hire rates result only in shabby old aircraft. Untill the GA community starts to put its’ collective hand in its pocket and pays sensible rates for quality aircraft the fleet will remain as it is, old and shabby.
Despite all the other laudable reasons set out in the thread, the reason most PPL’s give up is because they cannot afford to continue in the way they would like, because the aircraft are not available in the way they would like at a price they would like. With the possible exception of horsiculture, I cannot think of any other fundamentally expensive hobby that so many hope to pursue with so little.
If someone can come up with a way of providing good quality aircraft, at low cost and “go when and where you like” availability there must be a few quid in it. Until then it’s business as usual.
The ideal solution if the three day trip is your desire would obviously be to own your own, but that means costs.
Another reason covered above include the frankly aged and crappy state of the large part of the UK GA fleet. Most flying school owner would be delighted to have a gleaming, well maintained fleet with no empty nav/comm. slots on the dash and perhaps a couple of a/c spare to cover unforeseen technical problems. In general, the only thing stopping them is the business economics of making enough money from the fleet to make it a viable proposition, and why, because the vast majority on GA want to fly on the cheap.
It matters not whether it is a club or school, cheap hire rates result only in shabby old aircraft. Untill the GA community starts to put its’ collective hand in its pocket and pays sensible rates for quality aircraft the fleet will remain as it is, old and shabby.
Despite all the other laudable reasons set out in the thread, the reason most PPL’s give up is because they cannot afford to continue in the way they would like, because the aircraft are not available in the way they would like at a price they would like. With the possible exception of horsiculture, I cannot think of any other fundamentally expensive hobby that so many hope to pursue with so little.
If someone can come up with a way of providing good quality aircraft, at low cost and “go when and where you like” availability there must be a few quid in it. Until then it’s business as usual.
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Take Leicester. Definitely a club. Pick any rainy, drizzly Saturday afternoon where not a VFR airplane in the country has moved and you'll find the Leicester clubhouse packed.
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If someone can come up with a way of providing good quality aircraft, at low cost and “go when and where you like” availability there must be a few quid in it. Until then it’s business as usual.
Blimey, that almost reads like a brochure
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Okay, now we've disussed it, what are we going to do about it.
Positive action is required, or do we let this thread die, and discuss it all again next year, and the one after that, and ....
Positive action is required, or do we let this thread die, and discuss it all again next year, and the one after that, and ....