TSA Training Rule

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Flying Tooth Driller,

The link was in the sister thread in the Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) Forum:

Alien Flight Student Program (Student)

Sorry about that. That website is being updated daily, but much of the below 12,500lbs information is still lacking, most of the website just gives above 12,500lbs information.

You might want to look at the:

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Expect to see changes between now and the 20th of October.

Happy Flying,

Richard

[Flying Tooth Driller]

Richard:

Thanks for the links, and I have looked at the info as far as it goes.

The problem is that "recurrent training" definitely is NOT what a BFR, rental check out or just a brief brush up on procedures is, nor doing the 6/6 approaches with an instructor as a safety pilot.

None of these things fall under the defintions of a proper course of training, for which an M1 Visa is required. In fact, you could not meet the accepted requirements of the M1 Visa for these things. There is no course, syllabus, exam or anything - as one is not seeking a qualification! Granted that the category 4 does not require fingerprinting, nor is there any cost involved - but the TSA seem to have missed out the casual/recreational flyer who simply needs to keep current and keep his licence valid.

Any thoughts on that?

[helipat]

quote:
Now for anyone just looking to rent or get a BFR, there is no charge from the TSA and all they will have to do is fill in their info in the website linked above before coming to the U.S. This should not take more than a few minutes on a computer.


That's not what I and the local TSA representative understand...
You will have to pay $130 every single time for every single training entry in the system (BFR, checkout, or full part 141 or 61 training)...

Doing a background check on pilot is not stupid, but it could be done once every other 5 year for all pilots, whatever nationality they have... And it could be part of a ramp access card delivery process that we will all need soon if we want to enhance airport security.

But asking to pay $130 for every single training is a nightmare for our business...

[chrisbl]

Richard,

Hi, I wonder whether any of this will make passing through immigration easier if we could have TSA authorisation in advance.

I was made to feel like a criminal when I have said I planned to go flying even when all visa'd up like Christmas last year when I went to NAC.

I only hope their is some co-ordination so that the passage through immigration would be less hostile.

Frankly, I am seriously beginning to doubt whether it is worth it and although you say that it is not much, for the non training flyer ie the BFRs, 6/6ers ie those with no visa, it is a lottery as to whether you can get into the country when you say you plan to fly.

Personally, I dont want to not say to the authorities what I plan to do if they ask me because I like to be open and honest and flying is a material thing in this climate.

I will not be coming to Naples this Christmas for the first time in a few years because I dont want the hassle.

Chrisbl

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Yesterday I was in a meeting with:

• Doug Perkins - Federal Security Director
• Ruben Ramos - Deputy Federal Security Director
• Joe Kelley - State of Florida Terrorism Taskforce
• Miami FSDO (via telephone)
• and members of local Homeland Security and local Law Enforcement.

Everyone except for the Miami FSDO were extremely helpful in clearing up many of the questions about the new rule. (The Miami FSDO did not have any information, since they only received their info packet the end of last week and did not understand the program yet.)

helipat,

Non U.S. Citizens that already have a valid FAA Licence, will just register on the TSA Website and will not pay any money. They will not need finger prints either.

For hour building, recurrent training, and BFRs there will be no charge, nor will there be any need finger prints to be taken.

If you are doing any training which requires an F-1, M-1 or J-1 Visa, then the $130.00 charge does apply and you will need to have your finger prints taken.

chrisbl,

Part of this new program is a consolidation of all the different agencies watch lists. This should make in the future, the entering of the U.S. much easier. They expect that once all the information of the various agencies is consolidated, the steps for entering the U.S. for Flight Training will be made even easier. This new rule will evolve for at least the next 6 months as they bring all the agencies together. Right now, they have three agencies which are not working as one - Department of State, Immigration, and Homeland Security. Part of this new rule will be to bring all of these agencies together. The FAA is resisting being brought into this program, so it looks like they will not be added.

Flying Tooth Driller,

Part of the new rule will allow the finger prints to be taken at the U.S. Embassy, as long as that Embassy is setup for it, so it could be part of your Visa Interview. I would recommend that you wait till you are at the school, since it will be a much simpler process to have the photo and finger prints taken once you arrive at the school.

The Association of American Airport Executives (AAAE) is in charge of providing the finger print card kits and students can request one should they want, but the schools will have the kits already for you. When a student goes to have their finger prints taken, they will need to bring a pre-addressed envelope (USP, FedEx, Registered Mail, DHL, etc.) since once the finger prints are taken, the student cannot have custody, they have to be mailed by an official from the agency that took the prints.

For CFI's, they will have to go though initial Security Awareness Training and a yearly refresher. Once their Security Awareness Training is completed, they will be given a card showing they they completed their training, that they will keep on them when they fly. This training can be conducted in house. The materials for this training will not be available until January 20, 2005.

I hope this helps understand the new rule a little better,

Richard

P.S. NAC is registered as training provider on the TSA Website.

[Flying Tooth Driller]

Richard,

Many thanks for your last post, which is extremely reassuring. I had spent some time speaking with the Chief Exec. of our AOPA here, who will be meeting with Phil Boyer in a couple of weeks or so.

I fall in to the category of having the FAA license and IR already - which means the remarks you addressed to helipat apply to me.

I do not need the finger prints or the Visa interview. Maybe you reversed us........:-)

Anyway, that all sounds a lot better, and thanks again.

There would obviously be quite a financial hit to a lot of operators if things were made so difficult that no one wanted to fly, and I guess the TSA and all have to balance the possible security risks against the inconvenience, cost, etc., etc.

Will have to see where to register with the TSA when the time comes around. I saw nothing applicable when I last looked, but I'm sure AOPA and AOPA in the UK will help.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Flying Tooth Driller,

You register here:

Alien Flight Student Program (Student)

Down at the bottom of the page you will see a link:

New Account

You can create an account now. You will have additional options for filling in the information on which school you will be attending once you are ready to come to the U.S.

Take Care,

Richard

[cubflyer]

What a lot of pointless bureaucracy introduced by paranoid officials of a paranoid Government that have no idea about aviation. They still havent figured out that a small aircraft poses minimal threat, far more damaged could be done by a car/truck parked in the right place! And they havent realised that if someone really wanted to learn some flying and do some damage, they could just as easily learn outside the USA, learning in the USA doesnt give them any insight into how to hijack an airliner! And does anyone really think that a Sept 11 type hijacking and crashing aircraft into a target would ever be allowed to happen again by the passengers, let alone the increased security getting onto the aircraft etc.
Probably the same people incharge that recently caused me to be told that I wasnt allowed to photograph some airshow warbirds while pointing towards the airport terminal. Last time I heard that was in Communist Russia, or was in Franco's Spain.

I visit the USA a lot and fly a lot, just glad that all my flying is done from small airfields or private strips in private aircraft, so no Bull*** security at the airfields or anything else. Lets hope that US AOPA and EAA get the TSA to see some sense and really hope that this disease doesnt make its way down to grassroots aviation.

Thanks for keeping us informed about what is going on!

[chrisbl]

cubflyer,

you are entitled to your view about pointless buracracy although I think you are wrong.

The US has never had the experience of terrorism until 911. whereas we in Britain have had to put up with Irish terrorism (often funded by Americans) for many years and refused to let it affect our lives. However from an aviation point of view we still have to inform Special branch of trips to the islands including Ireland and there is some ramping up of other measures too.

I could as easily say that was pointless buracracy too.

I am afraid the US will go through a learning period of what seems appropriate and what seems practical.

what will not help will be foreigners trying to get around the rules, as this will lead to stricter rules.

I dont like the rules much and doubt how effective they will really be. However the US government has to job to protect its citizens and other citizens whilst in the US and it has chosen this way to do it.

We have a choice either to comply with the rules or not go to the US.

Its not that difficult and I do not see that their should be any argument about it.

Richard has been excellent in his postings and I will now review whether I will be going to Florida at Christmas in the light of the clarification he has provided. However, I do note that NAC will be closed for the duration from christmas to the new year.

[Flying Tooth Driller]

Richard:

<<You register here:

Alien Flight Student Program (Student)

Down at the bottom of the page you will see a link:

New Account

You can create an account now. You will have additional options for filling in the information on which school you will be attending once you are ready to come to the U.S.>>
-------------------------------------
Thanks for that. I know that for "recurrent training", it looks like the procedures will be fairly innocuous. I hope that the forms will ask questions of us that are appropriate to the sort of things we need to do (BFR's, 6/6s, rental checkouts, etc.), rather than asking about which airline recurrent training program we are enrolled in, or similar!

Regards.

[david viewing]

Aopa (US) just posted this which is good news for those of us who visit the US to rent and get checked out on existing licences.

I think this rule is the first sensible thing they have done since 9/11, since up to now it has still been perfectly possible for visitors with an existing FAA certificate and travelling on a visa waiver to pitch up at a flight school and get training or even a flight test without anyone asking about their status in the country.

Pity it took the bureacratic and arrogant TSA 3 yrs to work that out. It would be nice to think that the training visa nonsense could now be abolished.

Well done AOPA, who specifically refer to the 85,000 resident aliens with licences in the US. I don't suppose the interests of those of us who simply visit the US were high on their list of priorities, but it looks as though we can still look forward to our flying vacations after all thanks to their efforts.

[Flying Tooth Driller]

David Viewing:

Yes, it looks OK. The first time I read the report, I thought it was for US citizens only, then I looked again and see that it applies to all US certificated pilots. I then read the actual TSA document reached from the "last minute modifications" link in the AOPA article. Reading it through, the TSA have been very reasonable in their definition of flight training and quite specific in excluding the sort of checkouts and so on that one does to maintain currency and skills. Excellent and sensible.

Well done, AOPA! The usefulness of my membership of the US and UK AOPAs is well borne out by their efforts. I wish more UK pilots would join the UK branch. It needs our support for its work in helping us to keep flying here!

[cubflyer]

Well it seems chrisbl doesnt agree with my views on the uneducated heavy handedness of the TSA. But luckily most people do, including AOPA (as seen in the link given above) and the EAA- see below. Both of these organisations are fighting the rules and trying to get the TSA to see some sense.

But I do agree with Chrisbl that the bureaucracy forced on pilots under the pretence of the Prevention of terrorism act here in the UK is pointless too. Particularly when going to the channel Islands, and when you consider the fact that you can come back from the channel Islands via France and then completely alleviate the problems of the act and not need to contact special branch.

And I wasnt advocating breaking the rules in the US, I was just hoping that they would not affect the type of flying I do there, where I havent been near a flight school for years and fly out of nice friendly airfields with no fences, no control towers, self service fuel etc.

While I agree that the US hasnt seen the same level of terrorisms that we have suffered from here in Europe, people over there seem to forget the blowing up of the federal building in Oklahoma city which I think killed 30 or more (bigger than most single terrorist activities in N Ireland for example) and the fact that Al Queda already had a previous attemept to blow up the world trade center, but their truck bombs failed to do the job when they went off (I dont recall the exact details), not to mention the many terrorist acts done to US interests and US military abroad.

Unfortunately the uneducated TSA see avaition as a big threat and cannot differentiate between Cessna 152s and 747s and cannot seem to apply logic and intelligance to any of their arguments. Just look at what happens with airport security when travelling as a passenger. They target people for extra searches, the biggest group of people targetted are positioning airline crews, well they are suspicious, they have one way tickets and they werent even booked on the flight!!! (what a surprise when they are travelling on standby trying to get home from wherever their duty left them!!)
On a recent trip to the US I had 4 internal one way tickets as I made my way across the US. Every time I was singled out for extra security becuase I had a one way ticket. Personally I would have thought by now that anyone up to no good would have realised that the first thing you do is buy a return ticket!!!

anyway here is the press release from EAA


Dick Knapinski, Media and Public Relations

920-426-6523

[email protected]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

EAA affiliate NAFI successfully lobbies for relief
from onerous security requirements imposed on flight instructors

EAA AVIATION CENTER, Oshkosh, Wisconsin -- October 22, 2004 -- The National Association of Flight Instructors, an affiliate of the Experimental Aircraft Association, today announced revisions to national security policy answering concerns that NAFI voiced earlier this week.

"We sought to alleviate some of the onerous recordkeeping that recently enacted security policies would have heaped on individual and small-business flight instructors," said Rusty Sachs, NAFI executive director. "The exemptions announced by the TSA [Transportation Security Administration] make a step in the right direction, easing the burden on our members without compromising national security in any way."

Without the modifications for which NAFI lobbied, the policy would have required flight instructors to acquire and maintain meticulous records regarding the national origins of flight students -- even those being trained to fly aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds, which present little or no utility to anyone harboring sinister motives.

"In response to our members' concerns, we lobbied for a more reasonable set of precautions," said Sachs, whose advocacy efforts included an Oct. 19 letter to the Department of Transportation, the federal agency driving the TSA requirements.

The revised policy still provides safeguards, requiring logbook entries attesting to each student's proof of citizenship or nationality, but demands significantly less paperwork on students training to fly light aircraft. "We turned the security requirements into something more manageable and reasonable for our flight instructors," Sachs said.

NAFI sent more detailed information about the TSA security requirements, including these welcome revisions, to its members by e-mail today.

NAFI is the international organization dedicated exclusively to raising and maintaining the professional standing of flight instructors. The association has served as the voice of aviation education since its inception in 1967. Go to www.nafinet.org to learn more and get involved.

EAA, The Leader in Recreational Aviation, is an international association with 170,000 members and 1,000 local chapters. To join EAA or for more information on EAA and its programs, call 1-800-JOIN-EAA (1-800-564-6322) or go to www.eaa.org.

[Bluebeard777]

It appears you dont have to enter the USA to be subject to these identification requirements.

"Training" (as defined, and now re-defined) with a FAA CFI in the UK would seem to be subject to the same security restrictions as if it were conducted in the USA.

So will we see UK-based FAA instructors getting out their fingerprint kits and cameras?

[Tinstaafl]

The absolute stupidity of the whole thing is that it fails to enhance 'security' at all. Pretty much any pilot in some 3rd world country has the ability - & only needs an hour or so - to teach anyone who's interested enough to get airborne in most a/c, respond to a handheld GPS track guidance & crash into a building.

No need for bad guys to go near the US for the whole hour or so it takes to teach the above. So, get into the US & then steal an a/c.

Of course this completely ignores the minimal damage that a C172 or PA28 can do compared to a truck full of diesel & fertiliser or a hijacked petrol tanker... F%$^&ing idiots.

[englishal]

Came into the US on Thursday, and to be honest its been the best ever experience entering America.

Took about 20 mins from Plane to exit, yea I was finger printed and photographed, but the INS official was pleasant, and even made a few jokes.

Leaving Heathrow we were singled out for security, first the check-in baggage was searched then as we were boarding the handbaggage was searched, we must have fitted the latest profile or something. Still, I don't object to this, it was quick, efficient, and done in a respectful manner.

It appears I don't now need TSA clearance, as per above, but I really don't think that if implemented properly will make much difference to the legitimate punter......If it is a condition of holding a US pilot certificate, then I don't mind much.

I don't think it'll do much good, except to maybe put the public mind at rest.....

EA

[chrisbl]

Cubflyer,

I was not saying the measures from the TSA were right only that it is right to expect the authorities to take some action.

I am pleased that through AOPA in the US sense has come to bear and if you like that is the purpose of putting out these rules i.e. to get them sorted. How many times can you count when the authorities in the UK amend rules once issued. Look at the struggle going on re the Customs and the single market.

Judging from Richard's post the industry has gotten hold of the TSA and sorted them out as far as training is concerned.

I too hope that the M1 visa can be got rid of now. I went out to do my night qualification and needed a VISA for 5 hours of training.

In all it took 10 hours to get the visa, what with filling in the forms, waiting at the embassy etc.

Would it not be just perfect if this new process could replace the visa. Just think of the saving in workload etc. The flight schools have all the work to do re I-20s etc, they get to do much of the same work to do again with the fingerprints etc.

You never know this might be the opportunity to expand the flying training business in the USA.

chrisbl

[S-Works]

Anybody got the website and phone number for booking interviews with the US Embassy in London?

[Warped Factor]

All the info can be found here.

When you go up for your interview take a book and something to eat, you'll be there for a while.....

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Hi Flying Tooth Driller,

We were able to get the TSA to change their implementation. Right now we have till the 19th of December before full registrations will go into effect for Flying activities that do not require a Visa.

So for now, Category 4:

Candidates who are current and qualified on the aircraft for which they are requesting training.

Will not go into effect until after the 19th of December.

BFRs, currency and checkouts have been removed from Category 3 and placed in Category 4. They also fall under the grace period listed above as long as the pilot holds an FAA Licence.

With Category 3:

Candidates who request training for aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or less.

Will only apply to students starting a training course after the 19th of October. To give an example, lets say you came to the U.S. to do a Private and an Instrument Rating. You started your Private on the 10th of October, and then started the Instrument on the 10th of November. You would only have to apply though the TSA for the Instrument Portion since it is a new, course/rating. The Private would not require you registering since it commenced prior to the 20th of October.

For U.S. Citizens, the rule has been chanced to allow for a Flight Instructor to sign in the Pilot's Logbook that their citizenship has been established and that is enough to satisfy the rule.

Take Care,

Richard

P.S. Sorry I have not been on in several days. It has been extremely busy here the last week. As I hear more, I will post it.