Landing a PA - 28 Warrior
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Landing a PA - 28 Warrior
What methods do people out there use to land a PA - 28 Warrior?
My method is to get the approach speed just right 75kts (flapless) 70 kts (normal) on final and fly down to a point I judge to be correct then...........and this is the bit I am asking about ;
Do you peel the power off slowly until in the flare or
Do you kill the power and glide down to the flare???
I have seen both methods employed and wondered what the more experienced warrior pilots out there are doing.
The only other difference to these methods I have seen was during my IMC rating when we came down the ILS etc at 100 kts and peeled back the power in the latter stages. I was told this was so we kept up with other instrument traffic that were breathing down our necks!!!
My method is to get the approach speed just right 75kts (flapless) 70 kts (normal) on final and fly down to a point I judge to be correct then...........and this is the bit I am asking about ;
Do you peel the power off slowly until in the flare or
Do you kill the power and glide down to the flare???
I have seen both methods employed and wondered what the more experienced warrior pilots out there are doing.
The only other difference to these methods I have seen was during my IMC rating when we came down the ILS etc at 100 kts and peeled back the power in the latter stages. I was told this was so we kept up with other instrument traffic that were breathing down our necks!!!
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There has been much posted about this recently, click on this thread link. Landings are pretty much landings be it high or low wing spam can, just some characteristics change, that's all.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=118385
Read and implement and you will have a good landing 95% of the time anyway!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=118385
Read and implement and you will have a good landing 95% of the time anyway!
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My method is to get the approach speed just right 75kts (flapless) 70 kts (normal) on final and fly down to a point I judge to be correct then
When I was doing the IMC I just did flapless landings, one less thing to worry about when taking the foggles off and becoming 'visual' at 500 ft.
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Evo
Sounds like you were taught the slab wing '28 technique rather than the Warrior tapered wing technique - which you're using now.
Having owned a Warrior for 4 years I'm with Evo too. Get rid of the speed or have a lot of runway available!
I hate the PA-28 habit (that I was taught!) of dragging it in from 500ft with full flap and plenty of power to compensate for being on the wrong bit of the drag curve...
Having owned a Warrior for 4 years I'm with Evo too. Get rid of the speed or have a lot of runway available!
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I was taught 70kts as a 'bit of insurance' in case I got too slow on final 
It wasn't (intentionally, at least) the slab-wing technique, all the PA28s at the school i learned at had the newer wing. With hindsight I shouldn't be allowed out by myself if I couldn't hold speed on final, but back then who was I to argue? Stall warner just chirping as the mains touch... never!
I came back to the PA28 after switching to Robins (the 2160) and being taught to land at the speed in the POH. Before then i'd always landed the PA28 at the speed I was taught, but when I came back to them I had the confidence to land them by the book. It's so much easier at the right speed (which, of course, is why it's the right speed). The aeroplane goes right where you ask it to go, when you ask it to go there - without that uncertainty of floating on and on a few inches or feet above the runway. It really does become so much easier.
It wasn't (intentionally, at least) the slab-wing technique, all the PA28s at the school i learned at had the newer wing. With hindsight I shouldn't be allowed out by myself if I couldn't hold speed on final, but back then who was I to argue? Stall warner just chirping as the mains touch... never!I came back to the PA28 after switching to Robins (the 2160) and being taught to land at the speed in the POH. Before then i'd always landed the PA28 at the speed I was taught, but when I came back to them I had the confidence to land them by the book. It's so much easier at the right speed (which, of course, is why it's the right speed). The aeroplane goes right where you ask it to go, when you ask it to go there - without that uncertainty of floating on and on a few inches or feet above the runway. It really does become so much easier.
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I was taught 70kts as a 'bit of insurance' in case I got too slow on final
Glad that you have figured out the right approach for yourself, Evo, but you shouldn't have had to do that! I agree with everything you say.
Flying a final approach at ~1.3 Vso should provide ample 'insurance', without risking a 'float'. Statistics vary from airplane to airplane, but typically there are more accidents from landing long than from stalling on short final (admittedly, the stall accidents are more likely to have fatal consequences).
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When I say My method I mean how I was taught. I was given a printed sheet with all speeds on. Maybe it was just the idiot guide??? Are we saying then that the best approach speed is 65kts and is that flapless or with flaps?? Also what speed should we aim for on landing and do we kill the power and glide or do we gradually loose it????
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POH gives the final approach speed as 63 Kts with full (40 deg) flap.
Depending on how you've flown the circuit or the approach you may find you'll need a little power or you might be power off. Either way you'll find the best landing is achieved by flying this speed to approx 3-5ft off the ground, then kill the power, start the flare and let it land itself, continuously easing back and holding off until the wheels touch at the same time (hopefully) as the stall warner goes off.
Depending on how you've flown the circuit or the approach you may find you'll need a little power or you might be power off. Either way you'll find the best landing is achieved by flying this speed to approx 3-5ft off the ground, then kill the power, start the flare and let it land itself, continuously easing back and holding off until the wheels touch at the same time (hopefully) as the stall warner goes off.
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Interesting post, but did anyone mention weights yet?
One of the most challenging aspects of my converting from C152 to C172 was the difference between me and a puny instructor flying in the circuit with 1/4 tanks, then being let loose to fly me and 3 big blokes with 1/2 tanks.
Years of flying 4-seaters later, I always factor my final approach speeds for the pax and fuel load. The POH is of some help here, and it is pretty much essential going into short strips that you think about this aspect before you are committed.
One of the most challenging aspects of my converting from C152 to C172 was the difference between me and a puny instructor flying in the circuit with 1/4 tanks, then being let loose to fly me and 3 big blokes with 1/2 tanks.
Years of flying 4-seaters later, I always factor my final approach speeds for the pax and fuel load. The POH is of some help here, and it is pretty much essential going into short strips that you think about this aspect before you are committed.
It's not in my experience an aeroplane that appreciates any more speed than is absolutely required. The POH says initials of 70kn slowing to 63 with full flaps at 50 ft. Lightweight I have found that its safe to let it creep a couple of knots down on that but not below 60, but any increase in speed is a chronic recipe for float.
The loud and timely artificial stall warner, not to mention high back-stick forces and moderate buffet mean that you'd have to be a lobotomised gorilla to accidentally stall a Warrior on finals, and control is excellent right down to the stall.
Interesting that the POH doesn't recommend any speed but 63, nor any flap setting but 40° - then again it doesn't include any landing data but at MTOW either. When I practice flapless approaches, I usually use about 75 initials slowing to about 68, it does however use a lot more runway flapless.
I find that if speed does drop too much (by which I mean below 60) a trickle more power generally sorts it combined with a very slight push on the yoke, but I usually don't use much power, and try to be in a position to close the throttle at about 100 ft (assuming that I got the touchdown judgment right, which to be fair is about 50% of the time).
For what it's worth I fly one from a 900m grass runway, but generally find I can do a gentle landing and be turned off at about 400m on my home strip - that's generally without any significant use of brakes but holding full back-stick right through the landing roll. It not being a particularly friendly runway for that sort of thing, I do my flapless practice elsewhere.
G
The loud and timely artificial stall warner, not to mention high back-stick forces and moderate buffet mean that you'd have to be a lobotomised gorilla to accidentally stall a Warrior on finals, and control is excellent right down to the stall.
Interesting that the POH doesn't recommend any speed but 63, nor any flap setting but 40° - then again it doesn't include any landing data but at MTOW either. When I practice flapless approaches, I usually use about 75 initials slowing to about 68, it does however use a lot more runway flapless.
I find that if speed does drop too much (by which I mean below 60) a trickle more power generally sorts it combined with a very slight push on the yoke, but I usually don't use much power, and try to be in a position to close the throttle at about 100 ft (assuming that I got the touchdown judgment right, which to be fair is about 50% of the time).
For what it's worth I fly one from a 900m grass runway, but generally find I can do a gentle landing and be turned off at about 400m on my home strip - that's generally without any significant use of brakes but holding full back-stick right through the landing roll. It not being a particularly friendly runway for that sort of thing, I do my flapless practice elsewhere.
G
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Warrior POH only gives details for MTOW (2325 lbs).
As you get onto the bigger Pipers (Seneca, Aztec) the POH gives a constant speed, with weight affecting Landing Distance as opposed to approach speed.
So - as Ghengis says, go with the book speed, maybe a little less if you're light but definitely not below 60. You'll find that weight affects landing distance more than it affects approach speed.
As you get onto the bigger Pipers (Seneca, Aztec) the POH gives a constant speed, with weight affecting Landing Distance as opposed to approach speed.
So - as Ghengis says, go with the book speed, maybe a little less if you're light but definitely not below 60. You'll find that weight affects landing distance more than it affects approach speed.
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I fly (and own) a Beech C23 Sundowner (180 hp). The flapless POH approach speed is 80 knots, and the full-flap speed is 68. I usually land at our home field with 2 notches (25 deg) at 75. Less float at 70 but I find that roll control (even though this ship is quick in roll; mine's also aerobatic) becomes compromised, and then dealing with the built-in crosswind at our field is more of a challenge.
The Sundowner is weight-sensitive. At MGTOW, at the suggested best rate climb speed of 79 knots, or the flapless approach speed of 80 knots, if it's gusty, the stall honker will be going on and off, but not at lighter weights. I think in this case a little insurance is a good idea: it tends to drop a wing in a stall, and moreover, this is a wing that, when it decides to quit flying, it really quits (conversely, when it reaches rotation speed-65 knots-it magically sucks the aircraft into the air regardless of weight and with minimal back pressure on the yoke, but again if it's windy the honker will go off in climb if you're less than 85 kts).
Landing is a piece of cake though, if you remember to bleed off that excess insurance coming over the fence into your flare, otherwise float is impressive. These birds also have a rep. for porpoising.
But on the other hand, I used to fly a PA28-140 and the Sundowner, if you go by the book, is more consistent. Basically flare to a slight nose-up attitude, hold it off until the honker is really honking, then pull back until the mains chirp on. Pull too soon, and you balloon back up, the wing just wants to keep flying; the demarcation from flying to not flying is sharp. And balooning is where the porpoise accidents start: tempting to shove the nose down. That's exactly what happened to a friend in her Sierra (same airframe and wing), and the result was a prop strike, broken nosegear, and a pranged front end, to the tune of $35000 CDN.
Insurance should never be more than 5 knots IMHO, otherwise things can get ugly over the pavement. At least in my bird.
Mike
The Sundowner is weight-sensitive. At MGTOW, at the suggested best rate climb speed of 79 knots, or the flapless approach speed of 80 knots, if it's gusty, the stall honker will be going on and off, but not at lighter weights. I think in this case a little insurance is a good idea: it tends to drop a wing in a stall, and moreover, this is a wing that, when it decides to quit flying, it really quits (conversely, when it reaches rotation speed-65 knots-it magically sucks the aircraft into the air regardless of weight and with minimal back pressure on the yoke, but again if it's windy the honker will go off in climb if you're less than 85 kts).
Landing is a piece of cake though, if you remember to bleed off that excess insurance coming over the fence into your flare, otherwise float is impressive. These birds also have a rep. for porpoising.
But on the other hand, I used to fly a PA28-140 and the Sundowner, if you go by the book, is more consistent. Basically flare to a slight nose-up attitude, hold it off until the honker is really honking, then pull back until the mains chirp on. Pull too soon, and you balloon back up, the wing just wants to keep flying; the demarcation from flying to not flying is sharp. And balooning is where the porpoise accidents start: tempting to shove the nose down. That's exactly what happened to a friend in her Sierra (same airframe and wing), and the result was a prop strike, broken nosegear, and a pranged front end, to the tune of $35000 CDN.
Insurance should never be more than 5 knots IMHO, otherwise things can get ugly over the pavement. At least in my bird.
Mike
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YD,
Unconventional for sure. Can you elaborate a bit on what you do exactly?
Speeds? How do you start off? Half flap? What power setting? Do you vary that as well?
Interesting to read more about it!
FD
Unconventional for sure. Can you elaborate a bit on what you do exactly?
Speeds? How do you start off? Half flap? What power setting? Do you vary that as well?
Interesting to read more about it!
FD
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Maxflyer
Be careful. If you're too slow & too high, and raise the flaps, you'll be in trouble.
It requires busy hands. Idle the throttle, then cover the flap lever.
I'd be interested to hear how it goes.
Flyin'Dutch'
I started to play with this method whilst trying out the short field landing technique. For the short field landing, you want to get the wheels onto the ground as soon as possible because the brakes are the most effective way of slowing the aircraft quickly. Rather than risk a float or long flare, raising the laps at the right moment will plant the wheels firmly down. When the speed is below flying speed you could dump the flaps again to increase the drag.
Whilst practicing this I realised that by varying the angle during the flare it's possible to control the aircraft's height almost like a lift.
What I do is fly an normal approach, over the threshold I cut to idle and move my hand over to the flap level. When I'm entering ground effect height, I start to lift and adjust the lever.
Be careful. If you're too slow & too high, and raise the flaps, you'll be in trouble.
It requires busy hands. Idle the throttle, then cover the flap lever.
I'd be interested to hear how it goes.
Flyin'Dutch'
I started to play with this method whilst trying out the short field landing technique. For the short field landing, you want to get the wheels onto the ground as soon as possible because the brakes are the most effective way of slowing the aircraft quickly. Rather than risk a float or long flare, raising the laps at the right moment will plant the wheels firmly down. When the speed is below flying speed you could dump the flaps again to increase the drag.
Whilst practicing this I realised that by varying the angle during the flare it's possible to control the aircraft's height almost like a lift.
What I do is fly an normal approach, over the threshold I cut to idle and move my hand over to the flap level. When I'm entering ground effect height, I start to lift and adjust the lever.
Last edited by yawningdog; 20th Mar 2004 at 22:50.
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Surely if you resort to this technique you basically dump it on rather than land with minimal speed as is the plan for a landing.
If you fly close to the ground and retract the flaps you will stall the aircraft and it will decend onto the runway but that will always be at a higher speed than if you got it right with the conventional method.
Why I hear you ask.
When you do a perfect landing you will stall the wing at the moment of touchdown. This by definition will be at the lowest possible speed as you will be flying with full flaps at that time.
Now with your method you will be flying along just above the RWY but you are still flying not stalling. Now you retract the flaps and the wing will stall but always at a higher speed because you were still flying at the earlier speed with full flaps.
Therefore your touchdown speed will be higher and therefore you have more energy to get rid off.
Furthermore you will have to do a one armed paperhanger impression if you have to go round in the last stage of the landing.
Where did you get this idea from? Have you been gliding in the past or have you flown motorgliders?
FD
If you fly close to the ground and retract the flaps you will stall the aircraft and it will decend onto the runway but that will always be at a higher speed than if you got it right with the conventional method.
Why I hear you ask.
When you do a perfect landing you will stall the wing at the moment of touchdown. This by definition will be at the lowest possible speed as you will be flying with full flaps at that time.
Now with your method you will be flying along just above the RWY but you are still flying not stalling. Now you retract the flaps and the wing will stall but always at a higher speed because you were still flying at the earlier speed with full flaps.
Therefore your touchdown speed will be higher and therefore you have more energy to get rid off.
Furthermore you will have to do a one armed paperhanger impression if you have to go round in the last stage of the landing.
Where did you get this idea from? Have you been gliding in the past or have you flown motorgliders?
FD
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It's something I came across by chance.
It's just another way of getting the aircraft onto the ground, like slideslipping is another way of losing height.
But don't just "raise the flaps", vary the angle so you have a feel.
I'm just an ordinary PPL IMC.
It's just another way of getting the aircraft onto the ground, like slideslipping is another way of losing height.
But don't just "raise the flaps", vary the angle so you have a feel.
I'm just an ordinary PPL IMC.
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YD,
I was just wondering about the motor/gliding bit as in those you close the throttle and then adjust the glidepath/rate of descend with the airbrakes (not flaps)
Can see what you mean but for the reasons which I pointed out in my earlier post I am not convinced that there is any benefit at all over the 'common' approach and landing technique.
In fact due to the introduction of a configuration change you are introducing more variables making things potentially more fraught with problems and on top of that there is the one-armed paperhanger issue.
Think that for most aviating sticking to 'the book' pays off.
On a slightly different note is there anyone who has any evidence to suggest that some of the short strip 'techniques' such as getting rid of flaps on touchdown or pulling flaps on reaching rotation speed make any meaningful difference to landing and take-off performance?
IMHO they just introduce added work for no benefit.
FD
I was just wondering about the motor/gliding bit as in those you close the throttle and then adjust the glidepath/rate of descend with the airbrakes (not flaps)
Can see what you mean but for the reasons which I pointed out in my earlier post I am not convinced that there is any benefit at all over the 'common' approach and landing technique.
In fact due to the introduction of a configuration change you are introducing more variables making things potentially more fraught with problems and on top of that there is the one-armed paperhanger issue.
Think that for most aviating sticking to 'the book' pays off.
On a slightly different note is there anyone who has any evidence to suggest that some of the short strip 'techniques' such as getting rid of flaps on touchdown or pulling flaps on reaching rotation speed make any meaningful difference to landing and take-off performance?
IMHO they just introduce added work for no benefit.
FD