Landing a PA - 28 Warrior
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Yawningdog you must be barking mad. Fannying around with the flap lever at this stage of flight is just daft when the right technique makes it so much easier.
We should all share our experiences and let people make their own decisions about what is right for them. I would never try anything without running it by an instructor first, but it doesn't mean someone is wrong for suggesting it.
It never fails to amaze me how quick people are to criticize other posters. All this does is stops people helping each other out in this forum for fear of flaming without just cause. If I disagree with something another contributor posts I will try to say so without claiming the moral high ground. Debate is much healthier when it is held with a modicum of respect for others holding different views.
I have found this thread enlightening inasmuch as I am currently low time on a PA28 and always looking for helpful suggestion that go some way to making my flying easier and more enjoyable.
Rant over!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Seems to me there's one point which has been mentioned once or twice, but quickly glossed over.
It might be that retracting the flaps after landing helps you stop quicker, or it might not. As for retracting flaps before landing, enough has been said by others already about how bad an idea that is that I don't need to add to it. But there is one more question: Why???.
There are very few aircraft that need more runway to land than to take off, and a PA28 isn't one of them! So if you ever find yourself at a field where you need to resort to this type of technique, then the only way you're going to be getting out of that field is on a trailer! So why bother at all? There is abolutely no point!
Short field landing techniques should, of course, be taught, because there are aircraft which do need more space to land than to take off. For example, many older aircraft which don't have brakes. But then these aircraft mostly don't have flaps either. My Europa also needs more space to land than to take off - but the flap lever also controls the undercarriage, so retracting it during or after landing would be a very bad idea. But the general principal of crossing the fence at the lowest possible speed has got me into some nice short strips quite safely (although I do like to spend lots of time practicing the technique at a bigger airfield before going to a short strip, because I'm not a regular short strip pilot).
I would guess that if one were to come across an aircraft which not only needed lots of room to land such that this issue were relevant, and also had flaps, then whether retracting the flaps after landing improved things or not would depend on the characteristics of the specific aircraft? But in any aircraft, it's an extra complication with extra risks, to be avoided unless there is a definite benefit, IMHO.
FFF
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It might be that retracting the flaps after landing helps you stop quicker, or it might not. As for retracting flaps before landing, enough has been said by others already about how bad an idea that is that I don't need to add to it. But there is one more question: Why???.
There are very few aircraft that need more runway to land than to take off, and a PA28 isn't one of them! So if you ever find yourself at a field where you need to resort to this type of technique, then the only way you're going to be getting out of that field is on a trailer! So why bother at all? There is abolutely no point!
Short field landing techniques should, of course, be taught, because there are aircraft which do need more space to land than to take off. For example, many older aircraft which don't have brakes. But then these aircraft mostly don't have flaps either. My Europa also needs more space to land than to take off - but the flap lever also controls the undercarriage, so retracting it during or after landing would be a very bad idea. But the general principal of crossing the fence at the lowest possible speed has got me into some nice short strips quite safely (although I do like to spend lots of time practicing the technique at a bigger airfield before going to a short strip, because I'm not a regular short strip pilot).
I would guess that if one were to come across an aircraft which not only needed lots of room to land such that this issue were relevant, and also had flaps, then whether retracting the flaps after landing improved things or not would depend on the characteristics of the specific aircraft? But in any aircraft, it's an extra complication with extra risks, to be avoided unless there is a definite benefit, IMHO.
FFF
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gjhome - as you are no doubt aware, lift = Cl 1/2 rho v**2 S.
The change in lift coefficient with flap is meaningless at the speed of a PA28 shortly after touchdown as the actual change in lift will be virtually nil because the airspeed is so low. The time involved in lowering the flap lever without allowing it slam down will be more of a hindrance than using that time to concentrate on applying maximum wheel braking without locking the tyres. Raisng the flaps, braking and moving the control column fully aft to maximise braking is theoretically going to help - but in practice it'd be such an awkward exercise that you'd be wasting time (and runway) more profitably spent on braking as hard as possible short of tyre locking!
The change in lift coefficient with flap is meaningless at the speed of a PA28 shortly after touchdown as the actual change in lift will be virtually nil because the airspeed is so low. The time involved in lowering the flap lever without allowing it slam down will be more of a hindrance than using that time to concentrate on applying maximum wheel braking without locking the tyres. Raisng the flaps, braking and moving the control column fully aft to maximise braking is theoretically going to help - but in practice it'd be such an awkward exercise that you'd be wasting time (and runway) more profitably spent on braking as hard as possible short of tyre locking!
Sink The Pink
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Don't care what anyone says, if you come over the fance at the lowest safe speed and hold the nose well back once the mains are on, you'll be stopping pretty short in any a/c that youmight be flying.
Too many people are landing flat these days and wonder why they get a bounce.
Landing a nosewheel should be done in exactly the same way as a tailwheel in terms of "view during flare". The aircraft should flop down onto its nosewheel once the elevator loses aurhority and engine weight takes over. At this point if you need to brake hard you have either:
1. Landed long
2. Approached to fast.
3. Landed at a field that you're gonna have a problem getting out of!
Too many people are landing flat these days and wonder why they get a bounce.
Landing a nosewheel should be done in exactly the same way as a tailwheel in terms of "view during flare". The aircraft should flop down onto its nosewheel once the elevator loses aurhority and engine weight takes over. At this point if you need to brake hard you have either:
1. Landed long
2. Approached to fast.
3. Landed at a field that you're gonna have a problem getting out of!
Maxflyer I think you'll find that very few of my posts have condemned other people's preferred method of landing. This time I felt that this could be downright dangerous if tried by an inexperienced pilot. A few subsequent posters seem to have agreed with me. 
gjhome what you say is perfectly correct. However, I would suggest that if you are going into a field which is really close to a PA-28's limits it will probably be grass. Braking will be less effective than on tarmac and skids easier. The difference in lift (with reference to brake effectiveness) that the flaps make at the speed you SHOULD be touching down is miniscule. You'd be far better to be concentrating on speed control and getting the brakes on as hard as possible and feeling for a skid rather than faffing around with the flap lever.
ToryBoy full agreement on the flat landings but lets not start that thread again!!!!
gjhome what you say is perfectly correct. However, I would suggest that if you are going into a field which is really close to a PA-28's limits it will probably be grass. Braking will be less effective than on tarmac and skids easier. The difference in lift (with reference to brake effectiveness) that the flaps make at the speed you SHOULD be touching down is miniscule. You'd be far better to be concentrating on speed control and getting the brakes on as hard as possible and feeling for a skid rather than faffing around with the flap lever.
ToryBoy full agreement on the flat landings but lets not start that thread again!!!!
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Thank you Capt. M and gjhome for the help on the Max braking.
Yawningdog, your idea is right ,but maybe not using it at the right time. Normal landing at an airfield , not the right way to do it, BUT is a great asset as a short field backup . ( you are all looking at my profile and asking what a helicopter pilot from Hong Kong know's about short landing's, may explain later).
You are on final's , passed the overshoot point ,over the threshold and "****** " , I got it wrong , I'am floating along and the far fence is only 300 yard's away. Now according to most people you need three hands for the next trick, But wait, you have already closed the throttle so that may leave you with a spare hand to raise the flaps, dump the lift and get the bloodly wheels on the ground to get MAX braking.
Yawningdog, your idea is right ,but maybe not using it at the right time. Normal landing at an airfield , not the right way to do it, BUT is a great asset as a short field backup . ( you are all looking at my profile and asking what a helicopter pilot from Hong Kong know's about short landing's, may explain later).
You are on final's , passed the overshoot point ,over the threshold and "****** " , I got it wrong , I'am floating along and the far fence is only 300 yard's away. Now according to most people you need three hands for the next trick, But wait, you have already closed the throttle so that may leave you with a spare hand to raise the flaps, dump the lift and get the bloodly wheels on the ground to get MAX braking.
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fu 24 950, I would suggest that if you have already closed the throttle and flared and then decide you have "****** got it wrong" then you have failed to make the right descision a few hundred feet back. If are coming in a bit fast then you should recognise this before flaring and closing the throttle. If your threshold speed is higher than the POH recommended speed and the runway is short, go-around!
Regards
Stoney X
Regards
Stoney X
fu 24 950 I wouldn't do that to anybody's undercarriage in normal circumstances.
I don't understand the term 'passed the overshoot point' . It's not something I've heard in reference to a light single. If you are floating along and the end of the runway is coming towards you, OPEN THE THROTTLE establish a climb and adjust your flaps accordingly. It's routine. You don't HAVE to land off every approach people.
I don't understand the term 'passed the overshoot point' . It's not something I've heard in reference to a light single. If you are floating along and the end of the runway is coming towards you, OPEN THE THROTTLE establish a climb and adjust your flaps accordingly. It's routine. You don't HAVE to land off every approach people.
Sink The Pink
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fu 24 950
Come on there young chap, you're getting silly now.
I would strongly advise against a public disagreement about field flying techniques with LownSlow.....................you'll come off worse everytime!!
Come on there young chap, you're getting silly now.
I would strongly advise against a public disagreement about field flying techniques with LownSlow.....................you'll come off worse everytime!!
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fu 24 950, I would expect anyone flying into those kinds of strips to be sufficiently proficient and experienced as to be able to nail the POH figures everytime. Whatever technique that person then uses when things go wrong I would class as a controlled crash technique, i.e. pulling up the flaps. If you then get away without damaging the undercarriage well good luck to you! Of course none of this should relate to getting a spam-can into your average UK grass strip.
Regards
Stoney X
Regards
Stoney X
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But there is one more question: Why???.
Having said that, I don't think retracting flaps straight after landing is difficult or distracting: look at all those thousands of touch and gos I did. So about that issue, you could equally ask 'why not?'
fu OK, now I understand your reference to 'passed the overshoot point'. I was referring to 'normal' strips up to now. As it happens I have been into such strips and I make damn sure my approach is as perfect as I can get it from a long way out.
If I did let it go to worms then, I probably would pull the flaps up, salp it on the ground and, after slowing as much as I could, I would deliberately ground loop (assuming I had an undercarriage left), rather than hit a solid object head on / run over the edge at the end. Forget faffing around with flaps and brakes at that stage. Better to break the undercarriage than your head on the instrument panel. But the only time I would do the above is if I was faced by a cliff at the end of a box canyon for example.
ToryBoy thanks for the compliment but there are a lot of people here much more experienced than I in the art of short field techniques.
Good point Penguina but go-arounds are usually practised where you have plenty of space/ runway to handle mistakes. In terms of a normal landing on a 'normal' grass strip, why bother? There have been quite a few incidents of people inadvertantly retracting the undercariage when they meant to raise the flaps. They did stop quickly though
If I did let it go to worms then, I probably would pull the flaps up, salp it on the ground and, after slowing as much as I could, I would deliberately ground loop (assuming I had an undercarriage left), rather than hit a solid object head on / run over the edge at the end. Forget faffing around with flaps and brakes at that stage. Better to break the undercarriage than your head on the instrument panel. But the only time I would do the above is if I was faced by a cliff at the end of a box canyon for example.
ToryBoy thanks for the compliment but there are a lot of people here much more experienced than I in the art of short field techniques.
Good point Penguina but go-arounds are usually practised where you have plenty of space/ runway to handle mistakes. In terms of a normal landing on a 'normal' grass strip, why bother? There have been quite a few incidents of people inadvertantly retracting the undercariage when they meant to raise the flaps. They did stop quickly though
Last edited by LowNSlow; 23rd Mar 2004 at 13:12.
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My sentiments exactly TonyR!
Try a Luscombe in a 15 knot breeze from 20 degees off centre. Make it a grass undulating runway and I'd pay to watch....
P.S Yawningdog, you're making us yawn now with all your tongue in cheek! Did you ever buy that doodlebug you said you would on the flyer forum?
Try a Luscombe in a 15 knot breeze from 20 degees off centre. Make it a grass undulating runway and I'd pay to watch....
P.S Yawningdog, you're making us yawn now with all your tongue in cheek! Did you ever buy that doodlebug you said you would on the flyer forum?