Landing a PA - 28 Warrior

[TonyR]

Airspeed, Airspeed, Airspeed, Airspeed, Airspeed, Airspeed.

65 knots heavy

60 knots light

Full flap unless 25 knot crosswind

Get the speed right and the PA28 will almost do the rest for you

[Chilli Monster]

On a slightly different note is there anyone who has any evidence to suggest that some of the short strip 'techniques' such as getting rid of flaps on touchdown or pulling flaps on reaching rotation speed make any meaningful difference to landing and take-off performance?

Aztec POH quotes immediate flap retraction for short field landing technique - I'll try it next week and let you know FD

Yawningdog

How many hands do you have? One on the controls, one on the throttle, one on the flaps. Sounds like a recipe for disaster for me and us other mere mortals who only have two

As the majority have said - airspeed, airspeed, airspeed.

[TonyR]

There is some very scary advice and opinions on this thread.

Close to the ground is not the time to play with pulling on and taking off flap.

Short field take off, PA28:- 2 stages flap, full power, holding on brakes, raise nose wheel at 50 knots, when airborne allow speed to build to 65 knots, climb 70 knots, raise flap when safe to do so.

Short field landing, Full flap, airspeed 60 knots over the fence (get used to flying over the fence at about 10' if you really want to get in to a short strip), keep full flap on until taxi speed.

That way you only need the two hands you have been given, the same two hands the aircraft designers intended the aircraft to be flown with

Stay safe

Tony R

[Genghis the Engineer]

Why???????

Begs the question, why?

I know I can consistently get my Warrior down and stationary in 400m of grass without any significant divergence from the method in the POH - as presumably can anybody else since I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary. Similarly any of us can get a bit better by heavy use of the brakes. That's pretty much borne out by the numbers in the POH.

It is not a noticeably high-performing aeroplane during the take-off phase of flight; going through the POH I get (at the same conditions) a TODR of about 100m more than the LDR using the short field technique. So, any field that you can get back out of, you can land comfortably in with a good margin to spare. After that, it's mostly down to the satisfaction of landing consistently on the numbers - we all play that game, but clearly we've got adequate margin to miss the numbers and stay within the landing distance.

Which basically comes down to

- Read the blasted manual boys and girls, and if an instructor tells you to use different speeds, invite them to read it too ! Then follow it !
- Plan whether a field is suitable or not based upon take-off distances, not landing distances - at least for this aeroplane.


Speaking as somebody who also earns part of his living in test flying (albeit not at the level or experience of JF, well not yet anyway - he has a head start on me ) I have a serious problem with the use of variable flaps during the approach. This is nothing to do with the aerodynamics case, and everything to do with the ergonomics of it. If you suddenly let go of the PA28 flap lever with it not in one of the latch positions, it will almost certainly go instantly to zero flap. Now consider the go-around case. You have your left hand on the yoke (inevitable) and your right hand on the flap lever and need quickly to select full power / carb heat off. The odds are strong that you'll let go of the flap lever and it'll go instantly to zero flap. This will bring the stall speed up from 44 kn to 50 kn - combine that with the known pitch change with flaps on the type (a small pitch up) and the aircraft could be pushed into the stall condition as the power is selected (and therefore introducing a yawing condition). The result, in my judgment, is a significant risk of a stall-spin during the go-around. [Okay, I could be wrong, I've not tried it, but I wouldn't either except under properly controlled FT conditions given the analysis that I've just presented.]

Selecting flaps-off AFTER touchdown may work - I don't know, I've not tried. But whilst there is still air under the wheels looks to me extremely foolhardy until proven otherwise. Also, given what I've said about TODR I can't see a particular need to dump flaps after touchdown in any circumstances except a forced landing in a field.

G

N.B. I'd be interested in JF's views as well - but he is a Harrier pilot, so does have three hands

[Chilli Monster]

I think you'll find experience means you wouldn't be stupid enough to 'give it a go'

[TonyR]

yawningdog

There are some things in life that we all do which are best kept to ourselves.

F....ing about with the flap during the landing of a docile PA28 is one of them.

With a couple of thousand hours and about fifty aircraft type I cant think of any situation where this would shorten the landing run or help in any other way.

What worries me is that some people who may have a problem with their landing would try such a trick instead of going along to a good instructor for help.

It's like the person who suggested in one of our popular magazines that we should turn the mags off upon touchdown on a short strip. What a load of rubbish.

If you must employ such methods to enable you to use a short strip in any aircraft then I suggest you find a longer strip and fly by the book.

Pilots require a certin amount of intellect to pass the CAA exams but I am not sure who does the "common sense" assessment thest days.

Tony R

[UV]

Yawingdog, I am afraid that you are demonstrating your inexperience.

Unfortunately, other inexperienced pilots may be tempted to copy it.

UV

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Go Around:

Flap
Power

Hmmmmmm, I must try that one. Now where is my MS FS200?..........................

[fu 24 950]

Use power as required all the way down, ( power approace ) and as you flare, close throttle - wheels on and retract flap to give max braking.

[ToryBoy]

Whoaaaa

This is going from bad to worse.

"Retract flap to give max braking"................

"Turning mags of on a short airstrip"................

and as for yawningdog's three handed method of landing............!!

Any of you students out there MUST NOT PAY ATTENTION! This is all complete "kack de la chien"!!!!!

[Sensible]

And for maximum braking effect, just put it down in the water, guaranteed minimum stopping distance although a solid vertical surface gives an even shorter stopping distance! All these pet ideas may work for each individual but if all goes wrong, it may well all end up in blood and tears!


Come on guys, whats wrong with the POH thats Pilot Operating Handbook for those who have never heard of POH before and it can usually be found inside the specific airplane!!

I remember reading a post on landings by Chuck Ellsworth and I think I for one will stick with his advice since he has some 20,000 plus hours of flying experience and must have survived more than a few landings in that time! Meanwhile I am happy to take contradictory advice from any GA pilot who has in excess of Chuck Ellsworth's 20,000 hrs.

[yawningdog]

I originally wrote in my first post that my method would be frowned upon, no surprise there. Like I said before, don't try anything where you are not aware of the possible implications. Always follow the POH.

But I can't believe that so many have not heard of retracting flaps for a short field landing.

Toryboy, please explain why you wrote :

"Whoaaaa

This is going from bad to worse.

"Retract flap to give max braking"................"

[TonyR]

Quote;
"But I can't believe that so many have not heard of retracting flaps for a short field landing"

Full flap = drag = helps to slow down

Anyway all we are doing is confusing those who will try anything to improve their landings.

A PA 28 160 or 180 is not a short field aircraft. As someone already said if you get out you will get back in.

I said before "AIRSPEED" and hands where they should be.

Go and find an older instructor if you cant land properly.

Unfortunitly most of my first instructors have died of old age but I am sure they would turn in their grave if they read this thread.

[ToryBoy]

Yawningdog, I REPEAT...........bringing up (retracting) the flaps on landing will not give maximum braking and it never will.

It might well raise the stall speed thereby reducing the chance of becoming airborne again, but it will not assist braking.

Before I learned that taildraggers gave more challenging flying, I (and my Arrow) were based at a a farm strip. I always removed all flap once all three wheels were down but this was never to slow me down. Those who rush to get the flaps up must be going too fast as the a/c should be stalled onto the ground and therefore unable to create enough lift to become airborne again.

Do the heavy jets retract all their flaps, spoilers and airbrakes as soon as they touchdown? No, of course not. They do this at taxy speed once their braking effect is negligible.

Thay also don't come in over the threshold playing with the flap lever!!!!!

[E1453]

Landing the PA28 Archer

I've a lot of experience on the Archer, wich is, for landing, just a heavier Warrior.

The speeds I used to use on landing were:

full flaps: 60kts
flaps up: 65kts
short landing (full flaps): 55 kts

Anything more than 5 kts above those speeds will probalbly result in a prolonged flare. Very prolonged, I have experienced many times.

I supose the Warrior should use a Vref even smaller than Archer's, because it's lighter and has the same wings.

[Capt. Manuvar]

I have heard of yawningdog's technique (or something similar) before. i think it's (or was)more commonly taught in the U.S. In involved retracting flap AFTER touchdown. The reason it's frowned upon is because of pilots pulling the wrong levers in retractables and the fact that its not a good idea to take one's hand of the throttle during landing. I think i've heard or read somewhere that retracting flaps AFTER landing can help reduce the risk/effects of hydroplaning and when landing on icy/snowy RWYs.
The reason Heavies don't retract flaps immediately after landing is because they have spoilers which auto deply on touchdown.
In the archer I Use 75-80 for flapless, 65-75for 25 deg and 65 for full flap and that's sufficeint to stop in 300-400m as little as 250m fro 65kts/full flap.
While a lot of people prefer to touch down at the lowest possible speed, i prefer to touchdown at a particular point as long as the pitch attitude is long enough. I can then get the nose wheel down and 'roast' the brake pads. I prefer that method than concentrating on getting the lowest airspeed possible only discover that the fence is 50m infront of you when you lower the nose.
I'll just stick with the POH and sue PIPER if anything goes wrong
Capt. M

[LowNSlow]

Fly the right speeds at the right attitude and you will land as short as possible. At the touchdown speed of most light singles the aerodynamic braking supplied by the flaps is negligable. As has been demonstrated by countless company test pilots the best way to land in a short distance is to land as slowly as possible as close to the threshold as possible and brake as hard as is practicable.

Capt. Manuvar sounds like you bounce a lot if your touchdown point is more important to you than the touchdown speed. The necessary skill with short field landings is getting your speed correct at the point you wish to land. I take it you are extracting the urine when referring to "roast the brake pads". If you do have to resort to that because the fence is only 50m in front of you when you lower the nose you need to rethink how you land aeroplanes old chap! God help you if anybody lets you loose in a taildragger

Yawningdog you must be barking mad. Fannying around with the flap lever at this stage of flight is just daft when the right technique makes it so much easier.
Students, or anybody else, SHOULD ONLY TRY THIS AT HOME ON A FLIGHT SIM

[BEagle]

Fully agree with all your points, LowNSlow...

Anyone pratting about with the flap lever that close to the ground had better not even think about doing it in one of my ac! It's utter, uttter twaddle. Right speed (POH approach speed), right place (threshold), max safe braking (don't lock the tyres) is the only way to do it.

Raising the flaps shortly after touchdown seems to be one of those perennial questions - it has absolutely no aerodynamic reason except to make touch and gos less runway consuming. Something which isn't a factor on Farmer Jones' little farm strip! The other excuse is that it'll prevent 'flap damage' from stones, long grass etc etc...... Hmmmm

[gjhome]

Hello,

Seems like there is som different opinions here about the flap issue. Well, I can try to explain my opinion about this.

First, i don't think a student pilot should do any thing else than landing the plane when close to ground, defently not fiddle with the flap lever and defently not try to make this "shortfield" landings. If landing distance is critical, then itīs nothing for the inexperienced or a student.

But, retracting the flaps AFTER touchdown, i repeat AFTER, not in the air as some scary pilot said in this post before, will make it possible to make shorter landings. I will try to explain this with some examples.

First, if you were to land without any wheelbraking, then landing distance would be shorter with full flaps, due to the increased drag.

But the most efficient way to stop the aeroplane is to use the wheelbrakes. And to make the wheelbrakes so efficient as possible, we want max friction against ground. When we touch down with flaps the wing is still producing some lift, and there will be less weight on the main weels and less friction. But if we retract the flaps, we will dump much lift and hence put more weight on the main wheels, and we can therefore apply more pressure on the brakes without skidding the tyres. To make braking further efficient we apply max up elevator(the control wheel in the belly :-) ), be careful not to do this before applying brake, as this will result in a ugly tailstrike. Well, the full up deflected elevator will put even more pressure(weight) on the main wheels, making the braking even more efficient. And as a extra, the deflected elevator will make som drag to.

Now we can compare this with an airliner landning. Yes, they may leve the flaps down, BUT, have you ever heard about "lift dumpers"? This is what the spoilers on the upper surface of the wing is doing when they are fully deflected upon touchdown, they are destroing the airflow over the wing, dumping all lift. This will make the wing useless in producing lift, resulting in more weight on the wheels, making harder braking possible, and the flaps will just produce drag due to the disturbed airflow, therefore helping in slowing down.

Well, this is what i have been told during my training. I belive in this. Maybe it's totaly wrong, but i will not change my mind until someone proofs something else.

And at last, sorry for my bad english. I hope you will understand anyway!

//Gus

[Final 3 Greens]

Well said LnS.

I once had the flap lever 'self position' from 40 to 25 degrees in a PA28 on very short final - scared the sh!t out of me - pitched the nose up markedly before I realised what had happened and intervened.

Not something I would initiate knowingly.