Foz2

Hi,

I am about halfway through my PPL at the moment and everything is going fine apart from the round out and holding off so as to stall onto the r'way.

I did my first solo after 11 hours and since then have been doing mainly navigation because of the weather. I now have about 22 hours.

The problem is, sometimes I round out too low and then balloon and come down hard on the main wheels, or, I round out fine and then dont feel it when we start too sink towards the runway and by then its too late too get the control column all the way back.

I thought Id nailed it a while ago but obviously not. Any advice on this would be much appreciated as this is making me lose confidence.

Thanks very much.

Foz

strafer

The best advice I heard for learning how to land was simply, don't!

When you round out the plane will try to land itself but try to think of it, as your job being to try to keep it flying as long as possible. That's why you're flaring, to try and keep it in the air, all the while losing airspeed until you finally stall just as the wheels touch the ground (that's the theory anyway!).

Just keep practicing and soon it will be second nature (well, easier).

Re thinking you've got it nailed, then taking two steps backward - that's flying matey!

TD&H

Stalling on landing?!

A common mis-conception. Even most tailwheel types arn't in stalled condition in the three point attitude. If you were stalled just above the runway then got it wrong by a few feet then a nasty wing drop could happen, would not make your day!

However try to relax, being tense will make things worse, so you become more tense etc.

Try not to fixate on one point. Use peripheral vision to help judge the flair/hold off.

FlyingForFun

Sounds to me like you may not be looking in the right place, especially when you say "The problem is, sometimes I round out too low and then balloon and come down hard on the main wheels, or, I round out fine and then dont feel it when we start too sink towards the runway and by then its too late."

The idea, once you've rounded out and are in the process of holding off, is to look into the distance (the end of the runway is often a good guideline for how far into the distance, but this depends on the length of the runway). There is a specific point whereby, if you focus your vision on that point, your brain can easily figure out how high you are, and whether you're moving up or down relative to the runway. Someone (Chuck?) posted a very good description of this quite some time ago, including a mathematical explaination of why this works. I got lost in the maths, but it really does work - it's just that it's not something that anyone can really demonstrate how to do, you just have to learn it by yourself.

My other tip would be to read everything which anyone writes on this subject, and try it all. You might find that none of the advice works, except for one thing which one person says, and then it suddenly clicks into place.

Good luck!

FFF
-------------

dublinpilot

I agree completely with FFF.

Same thing happend to me in the middle of my training. Instructor reminded me to look down the runway, and not just in front of the nose. All of a sudden everything was back to normal

Johnm

The best book I have read is here
http://www.avshop.com/catalog/produc...productid=3672

or on Amazon.com. Making Perfect Landings in Light Aircraft by Ron Fowler helped me a lot. The key is to do all of the bits religiously!

Hope that helps

J

strafer

TD&H - if you want to be pedantic, then learn how to spell 'flare' first.

bluskis

two questions

Are you flying a low or high wing airplane?

if the latter,and with a springy u/c to boot, nice landings come a little more difficult. No ground effect available, and a catapult waiting to put you back in the air .

Have you had the same instructor for the 22 hours, if so is it time
to try an instructor with a different patter?

Field In Sight

As you approach the threshold move your focus from your initial aim point gradually to the end of the runway and at the same time adopt the landing attitude (usually put the nose on the horizon i.e. the climbing attitude.

Once you have the landing attitude DON'T CHANGE IT then use power if necessary to adjust the sink rate.

To help you learn this, if the runway is long enough fly along as low as possible in the landing attitude and use the power to stop you touching down. Once you can do this consistently landing is a mere case of closing the throttle.

FIS

PS Make sure you can see properly (i.e. use cushions if necessary).

PPS. Don't worry about it too much, they'll get worse before they get better (then worse again )

Saab Dastard

Foz2,

Don't worry, you are not alone!

There's been a few threads on this topic over the years (if search is enabled you may be able to find some good stuff) on this forum.

2 things stick in my mind, one is "Aim at the ground and miss as long as possible".

The other (less helpfully) is:

"There are 2 easy stages to a perfect landing - problem is, no-one knows what they are"

Good luck, you will nail it (for a while, then lose the plot then regain it, etc.).

SD

Chuck Ellsworth

Foz2 :

Several things to note.

First: You cannot "feel" height above the runway, you " see " it.

Second: Get another instructor.

Third: Search through these threads, somewhere I went into detail regarding how to land.

Fourth: Do not look to far ahead, around five hundred feet down the runway will be about right.

Chuck

Airbedane

Foz2,

Did I read this bit right:

'I did my first solo after 11 hours and since then have been doing mainly navigation because of the weather. I now have about 22 hours. '

If I did, here's 2 major points:

1. If the weather wasn't fit for circuits, then how can it be fit for navigation?

2. What happened to a few hours solo circuit consolodation after the first solo - it's an essential exercise to fix all the skills you've learned, such as landings, before progressing to anything else?

I'm not surprised you're having difficulties. I would suggest you insist on practicing your circuit skills before you do anything else. You can put into practice the other good advice in this thread, fix the landings, and then progress to off-circuit exercises.

Papa Charlie

Entirely second that Airbedane - I missed the bit about the bad weather when I first read Foz2's post.

The ONLY way I hung together all the advice from fellow club members and from 2 different instructors was from bashing those circuits over and over again in the period betwen 1st solo and nav. Also with different weather and different runway directions so that I didn't get too hooked on one approach only.

But, Foz2, it does come eventually!

PC

Whirlybird

I suspect what happened is that Foz2 went solo, then the wx was too bad for solo circuits, but OK for dual navs. So as not to waste time, they carried on with that - not ideal, but neither is not flying till the wx improves. Am I right, Foz2?

As for landings, what you're experiencing is quite common. I found that looking far enough ahead was usually the problem; other than that it's just practice. But if you've had a break from practising this very new skill - as you have - of course you forget it a bit. Frustrating I know, but it'll come back, then you'll forget again, and finally get it licked...until the time you have a lay-off for a while and forget again, etc etc etc. Read everything; it may help. Personally I find all that helps is doing it, but everyone learns differently: some by listening, some by watching, some by doing, some by a mixture of all of those.

fireflybob

On a slightly different tack some comments about how we learn anything new.

Tony Buzan in his book "Head Strong" poses the question "What is the underlying goal of all learning?". 99% will answer "To get better with every trial" and then poses a further question "Do you agree with the rest of the world, or are you going to establish yourself as a maverick?".

You need to read the whole arguement (anyone interested in teaching and learning I highly recommend his book) but he suggests that the underlying goal is to LEARN from every trial (ie attempt) NOT to "get better".

What has this to do with learning to land, I hear you ask? Everything! Quite simply do NOT expect to get better with every attempt at landing! When things do not go according to plan, just say "How fascinating - I wonder why the aircraft did that? What have I learned from what has just taken place?", and then apply what you have learned to the next attempt.

Quite simply if you expect to get better with every attempt at learning to land you are setting yourself up for failure. Remember that you can practice Straight and Level for hours at a time but exposure to landing has to have a circuit in between which is another reason why it takes longer to learn.

Obviously all the comments about correct technique are totally valid but treat the aircraft as a sort of giant laboratory and you might come up with some interesting perspectives. Remember also that a good re-demonstration of landing might help also - watch where the instructor is looking whilst HE is landing.

Good Luck & Happy Landings!

IO540

My 2p contribution is that after 350hrs I've decided that airspeed control is the most important single thing.

The airspeed on final doesn't matter much, so long as it is right at the start of the flare.

And the figure will depend on the aircraft configuration. The trouble is that a PPL is not (IME) told that it varies according to configuration (according to weight, basically, for a given flap setting).

If I come in even 5kt-10kt too fast, I always bounce about; the alternative is to do a perfect flare and settle into a ground effect glide taking me halfway down the runway

Foz2

Whirlybird has it right, the weather has been really difficult recently for solo circuits. Not necessarily the cloud base but it has been very cross windy which is no good for solo circuits but fine for dual navs. We've also done steep turns, PFLs and diversions.

Im flying everday this week (weather permitting) so Ill let you know how I get on!!

Blueskis I am flying a high wing (c152).

Thanks for your advice

Foz

Kolibear

Foz2,

This may sound a bit silly, but is the seat in the same place for each flight?

When its in its lowest position, the view you get over the nose will be completely different to when its fully raised.

If your instructor is saying something like 'raise the nose to the horizon', and the seat is fully down, then you will be flaring more than if the seat is fully raised.

It doesn't matter where you have the seat, so long as you are comfortable and it is consistent from flight to flight.

Apart from that - nail the speed and look at the end of the runway.

Northern Highflyer

Best advice I could give is to "stick at it".

If you are following what you are taught then it will happen. I spent many an hour circuit bashing during my training. I would nail a greaser and then the next one would be a nightmare. The instructor said that one day it would just click but it never did. After many hours in the circuit I thought he was just trying to make me feel better, but you know what ? one day it just clicked !

You will master it, I promise.

Good luck
NH

Sensible

Something else to consider is the approach, what is often put down to bad landings is a bad approach and a bad landing follows as night follows day! What you must have is your speed constant and the aircraft properly trimmed. if it's not trimmed properly and the airplane stable on the approach then a low hours pilot will have extreme difficulty in making a good landing. You need to have a "touchdown" point - often the runway numbers and then fly to that touchdown point , you then need to roundout and hold the airplane a couple of feet off the runway and gradually increase back pressure on the stick/yoke untill it is fully back and the airplane drops onto the runway. If the stick/yoke isnt fully back at the time when you touchdown, you didn't land, you arrived! That is most important especially with a glider or tailwheel airplane.

Try a different instructor, ask him for comments. I have to say that some instructors put a student on overload with too many instructions.