Start from scratch...or not?

[Andy_R]

Was wondering which way to jump. Let me explain...

I started my PPL way way back in Jan 2000. In the summer of that year the school went bust.
My training continued spasmodically (with all the usual weather cancellations) with the instructor I'd had at the school, using club aircraft. I eventually soloed in April 2001. She then went and got a job with BA, so I joined another school at the start of 2002 which in a short time went the way of the first.

Now, discouraged by the lack of continuity and fairly confused by the differing ways of instruction I lost the enthusiasm for a while, helped by a rather large tax bill!!

Last year I started again with a change of aircraft from the trusty old 152 to a Tomahawk and soon got the hang of general airwork and circuits again, though I didn't manage to solo. This was bought to an abrupt end with some fairly heavy personal / family problems which pushed me off the rails for a while.

New Year 2004 came and along with it a resolution to complete the PPL and progress on from there. So I put my head down and have now completed all my exams (the ones I had taken were out of date) and my medical is once again current (I am 38).

I run my own business so have a fair amount of freedom as to when I can do my training. I have been sensible and instead of trying to pay for lessons as I went I now have the money put aside to complete my PPL and more.

I have 38.5 hours in my logbook, of which only 2 hours are solo (solo consolidation) and have completed 1 dual xcountry, though this was now 2 years ago almost.

I find it a little worrying that apart from my theory exams I have never been shown how to do a weight and balance, or a passenger briefing, or a fuel calculation. I believe this won't have been helped by the lack of continuity of flying, instruction and of course flying with huge gaps in between.

So.... what do you ppruners think?

Do I literally start from scratch or do I block book 20 hours and try and fill in the gaps as I go along?
Do I go to the US or SA and combine the completion with a night qualification and some hours building, maybe in a taildragger or complex types, or do I stay in the UK and get it finished and do the add-ons afterward? I would ultimately like to have the minimum of night, IMC and taildragger ratings. I am beginning to be too advanced in years to think full commercial, but may consider FI.

Should I (more than likely) stay in the PPL territory I would ultimatley be looking at a group or indeed own aircraft.

So go on then, let me hear from the more seasoned flyers out there. Do I start again or do I carry on and fill in the gaps?

[Monocock]

Cloud69

Long time no hear old chap, hope alls well.

I would go to a reputable club that isn't on its knees and ask an instructor to go with you for an hour and let him get a feel of what you know/can do. He will assess your capabilities and then you can go forward from there.

I would strongly advise you give him a list of all the things you haven't been taught that you think you should have been.


Tell him your target date to have it all completed by and then you'll have something to work to. With the summer coming up I personally wouldn't bother with the USA, do it here and try and finish before the end of September for example.

Too many people go through their PPL without any "targets" at all and end up paying far more because of the lack of direction.

Good luck!

P.S That "Quit Smoking" book I told you about was good........up to a point. I fell off the wagon about 4 months later!!

[Field In Sight]

Start again!!! Why??? You already have been solo before as far as I am concerned that is 2/3 of the way through the course.

My advice is block book an instructor in the UK in the week (good aircraft availability). The weather can be good enough to finish quickly, even in the UK, provided you book sufficient slots.
Book 1 flight a day and accept the crappy weather as being a day off.

Just going back in the circuit you will be doing take/off, climbing, climbing turns, straight & level, medium level turns, speed control, use of trim, descents with/without power, with flaps, landings, RT, decision making etc, etc. Blimey, it's no wonder circuits are hard at first

Your instructor will be able to spot straight away the bits you are rusty with.

The good thing is that you have done the exams and have given yourself a deadline of 18 mths to get the PPL done this time.

As regards to weight/balance, fuel calcs, passenger briefs you would have just about started doing that when you got onto X/C flying.

What to do after your PPL? Just get your PPL and worry about that afterwards. Take one step at a time.

Happy Flying.

FIS.

[Max AirFactor]

Its tough enough with Uk weather let alone clubs going pear-shaped. Hope your luck improves. You deserve it.

Keep its simple. You've put the time in. Done the exams. You've got Uk procedures/law and RT experience. For weight & balance etc - read the book and you can do it for real on the day of the skills test.

In your case I would say finish it off in the US if home circumstances permit. And take a spare case for all those aviation goodies and Nike trainers you can get at todays exchange rate.


MAF

[englishal]

I agree with both the other posts. If you want to do it in the UK, block book an instructor, and accept no p*ssing around by the school, and just do it. With your experience you should easily complete the PPL in a couple of weeks of good weather, now whether or not you get that in the UK before about June is another matter.

However, having said that the £1=$1.90 does look rather attractive at the moment....except for me as I get paid in US$ .....(still every cloud has a silver lining and all that, maybe I'll end up working over there in the near future )

Cheers
EA

[360BakTrak]

I agree with all of the above replies.....after a few lessons and some ground-school you'll be surprised how much you can remember!
Its like riding a bike.......only infinitely more expensive!!!!!

[Charlie Zulu]

Pesonally I'm on the "if you're going to fly in this country then learn in this country" band wagon.

However as you already have 38.5 hours of flying in this country you are already aware of the atc, weather and other procedures that this country has to offer.

So I'd be inclined in your case to jump on the other band wagon and get over to the USA with your converted dollars with the nice exchange rate and finish off your course over there.

That will give you your JAA PPL (if you go to a JAA school) within the space of a couple of weeks.

You can also at the same time gain a full FAA PPL if you do an extra ground exam and flight test after learning a couple of ground reference manouvers.

Also you'd have experience of flying in the USA which will work in your favour if you then decide at a later date to take your other half for a flying holiday around the States.

If you do decide on the USA then ensure you take a completed PPL Application form with all of your ground exam results and signed off by the CFI at the school in the UK.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[Sensible]

Personally I'm on the "if you're going to fly in this country then learn in this country" band wagon.

Yes but Cloud69 started to fly in Jan 2000 and if he had gone to the USA to do the PPL then he would have had a PPL since Feb 2000 and wouldn't be fafing around now!

Believe it or not, the same rules of aerodynamics works in the UK as the USA and most of the airplanes are the same anyway!

Go to the USA and do the PPL and then you can do the summer season in the UK as a pilot rather than as a student. The dollar to pound exchange rate makes the opportunity too good to miss. Fantastic flying experiences in the USA too!

[BRL]

Hi Cloud, good to see you here again, hope all is well.
I would take advantage of the $ rate and go tomorrow and get it over with. If not, try Shoreham between showers and windy days but remember not to pay too much up-front. Good luck.

[Andy_R]

Monocock, BRL, thanks guys!!

Strafer..... don't worry, your bluntness actually makes me smile rather than hide away

try Shoreham between showers and windy days

Which, as you are probably aware BRL, is where schools keep going t**ts up. Now left with the choice of two larger establishments who have been around a while or two smaller outfits that seem to keep on going.

I have actually been in that school of thought that says fly here, train here, especially as all the money is sat there, but.... at leats I have the weather in the US and the good exchange rate. I hadn't actually thought of the flying in the US holiday benefit of both JAA and FAA licences. I take it I could keep both current over in the UK?

The good thing is that you have done the exams and have given yourself a deadline of 18 mths to get the PPL done this time.

Your comments are appreciated FIS but where did I say that?

Target is the start of summer actually for anyone who may be interested

Welcome any other views and thanks for those already stated.
FFF, you still out there???

All the best,
Cloud

[IO540]

cloud69

Your experience, by no means unique I am (not) pleased to say, would be typical of an airfield where there are at least 5x more schools than are needed for present day student numbers... but let's not go down there just now.

But there is little airfield choice in the area, within plausible driving distance. I would just throw some time+money at it and get the PPL done right there. Then you get to any "extras"...

If you want to fly around locally, just for fun, I can't help you but plenty of people can.

If you want to fly to go to places, the baseline is a PPL+IMCR. This can't be done on a shoestring, but you don't sound like the standard penniless PPL So, next Q is: what's your budget?

I was very tempted to buy something to do the PPL in but insurance was the killer. So the best thing is to get your PPL ASAP and start looking around for a decent syndicate plane (IF there are any..) or even buying one, and do the IMCR in that. Currency on type is the name of the game there, and you will waste your time and money doing it in some piece of junk, only to spend another 20 hours getting used to something better later. It has to be on a Public Transport CofA. You need to be pretty focussed to do it this way; many instructors will try to discourage you, but it's the best way for for long term flying.

Doing the PPL in the USA is a very clever option if you get an FAA PPL also, because you can add an FAA IR to that later, and then if you buy an N-reg plane you get worldwide IFR privileges. This is the absolute business, without a doubt, for European touring - if that's what you want. But not many syndicates operate N-reg planes, and remember if you really want to fly IFR you would need to find one whose other members are keen IFR pilots with decent size pockets, otherwise the plane won't be maintained to the required standard.

Having said that, and never having flown in the USA, I have met very few active PPLs who did it in the USA. The small (overall, all things considered) cost saving becomes irrelevant in the long run and if it really matters that much, you won't be flying much afterwards!

[Andy_R]

you don't sound like the standard penniless PPL So, next Q is: what's your budget?

Not sure I could be classified as well off, but I do now have £15k sitting burning a hole in my bank account, so guess that could be called my budget... ! Not enough to go buying complex singles but enough I would have thought to get my flying up to a reasonable level so I can go places. Not looking at this as a means to go boring holes in the sky....would rather use it to go places, but am realistic enough to see I would need more than a basic PPL for that.

Always difficult to say how much is available to spend on a day to day basis when you run your own business but if it carries on in a similar vein there should be a minimum of £5000 a year to devote to flying without any protest from home!

[strafer]

Strafer..... don't worry, your bluntness actually makes me smile rather than hide away

But apparently not the humourless muppets who moderate/ruin this forum.

Whatever you decide, go for it. It will be worth it when the brown plastic wallet pops through the door.

[ChrisVJ]

There are two schools of thought, besides the UK USA thing. Those who "learn over a period" and those who "block off the time" and do it in a lump. Of the seven who were doing it over time locally here seven did not complete. I did it at Oxford 38 yrs ago in four weeks. Lived in digs, flew every good day, studied every evening. I still have the licence. It says the same on it whichever way you do it and two years later no cares a tuppeny so why risk running out of school, steam or instructor? Your persistence is great but you are in serious danger of becoming a statistic again.

Here or there BLOCK OFF THE TIME and do it in a lump. So why not do the flying and get a free holiday thrown in? Florida is great, great weather, great flying, a lovely flying community. I'm going down there in April just to see the friends I've made. Come around April 13 to 19th and get in Sun n Fun as well. Come later and leave yourself a few days for the beach or Disney. If you have some breadies left over go for a flip in a Mustang at Kissimmee. Go home qualified, refreshed, and tanned!

Oh yes, pay as you go unless you take up bank references.

Course I wouldn't want to influence you!

[FlyingForFun]

FFF, you still out there???

Yes - but wasn't around yesterday, because I decided to take the day off to head to Sandown for lunch with my girlfriend. Her first flight in a light aircraft, and she was very nervious for the first 10 minutes, but once she started to relax she loved it! But that's not really very relevant....

Besides taking yesterday off, though, I'm not really sure why you're specifically asking me - it's not a situation I've got any experience of. But since you did ask, here's my uninformed opinion:

Definitely don't start again, there's no need. The biggest problem you have, as I see it, is that you know that things have been missed out of your past training (e.g. w+b). But you can't possibly know what's been missed - if it's been missed, then how would you know about it???

I think what you need to do is find a very understanding instructor. Go for a flight to find out what stage your flying is at, obviously. But then you'll need to spend plenty of time on the ground with him. Get him to go through the entire syllabus with you - and I really do mean the entire syllabus - and then, between the two of you, you can work out what you've done, what you've forgotten, and what you've never been taught. I would imagine that this will take longer than your first flight, so you'll need to find an instructor who's prepared to spend this much time on the ground, but without doing this I can't see any way to ensure you cover everything.

All the other stuff about doing it intensively or going abroad is a bit of a red herring. I can't see how the arguments for/against are any different in your case than in any other case, and you've been hanging around here for long enough to have read them over and over already.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide to do and how it goes!

FFF
-------------

[Andy_R]

FFF

I'm not really sure why you're specifically asking me

I guess cos in the time I have been around these forums you usually have an informed comment to make. And I know you've had experience of flying both here and in the US.

It's not so much the train here or there, but the whether those with more than a little experience than myself think it'd be better to start from scratch or not. On the whole it appears not, and I will be going to find someone prepared to sit down after a flight to find out just what I have missed out, or not, as the case maybe.

I do lean toward completing training over here, just doubt whether the weather is up to it.

So all of you, prepare yourselves for unflyable weather in the South East for the next 3 months other than at weekends (when I am confined to work!!). Will let you all know what is occuring.

Thanks for your opinions, there is always a view that hasn't been considered, which is what makes this such a good place to frequent.

[Field In Sight]

Cloud69,

I meant deadline in respect to finishing the PPL before you ground examinations expire!

I've just checked LASORS and you actually have 24 mths from completing all of the exams. The 18 mths is from passing the first one.

Good luck anyway,

FIS

[Flyin'Dutch']

C69,

Good for you to come back at it!

Have a good look at yourself and say what you really want.

If I read between the lines then I get the feeling that you are not going to 'cope' with a third episode of frustration so what I suggest would be the following, bearing in mind what all has been said about flying over here.

1. You already had your fill of the UK weather and have the means to get some hours in when you are back here to 'adjust' to the small differences in flying over here compared to the states.

2. Get your US visa; make contact with one of the reputable schools in the states and get yourself over there for 2-3 weeks (ring them and talk to them the good ones will give a good indication on how much time you will need)

3. Get an FAA medical and do the FAA PPL at the same time. AS IO540 states it does open another window and future opportunities.

4. Get your licence (and the FAA license) and seek out a nice group of people that operate an aeroplane which fits the bill for you.

5. Have fun in getting the tickets and exploring the envelope with them.

FD

[Pronto]

May I add a couple of points for consideration?

Firstly, in order to get your licence abroad, you'll have to add in the cost of return flights to and from your intended venue, plus the costs of accomodation, food and local transport, plus travel insurance, hire car insurances and costs of visas etc. This may serve to wipe out the savings you'll make on the exchange rate and cheaper flying abroad.

My second point comes in the form of a salutory tale. A friend of mine recently went abroad to get a PPL. He ran out of time with only a few hours to do and his flight test to complete. (The wind had got up a bit and was out of limits for students for a few days of his course). The consensus view in the office (where there are several PPL holders) was that he should "finish off" in the UK. He decided, however, to take a weeks leave and fly back to the original club only to come down with a bad cold just as he arrived. Result: a wasted trip. (He did finish off though, at a club in England...) The moral of the story is that if you opt to complete your training in England and you fall ill or the weather takes a hold then you can get on with other things rather than continue to run up costs overseas.

[englishal]

add in the cost of return flights to and from your intended venue, plus the costs of accomodation, food and local transport, plus travel insurance, hire car insurances and costs of visas etc

£300+$43/night (say for 3 weeks)+$20/day (food etc)+$0 (not always needed, many hotels provide transport)+$0 (don't need a car when you renting a plane)+£100 for visas. I make that to be:

£1100 or so. Now consider that in the states you can rent a VFR 152 for $58/ hr wet, instructor at $35 hour = $93 /hr. Say you need 30 hrs dual to finish off = $2790 (~£1500)

In the UK you will spend probably £110 / hr dual in a 152, £110x30 = £3300.

Total in the USA = £2600
Total in the UK = £3300 + landing fees + transport to and from, and not forgetting food for the duration of you training (I after all eat whether here or there )

You seem to have given the UK a chance, now I would go to the US, finish off in 3 weeks, have a damn fine flying holiday, get experienced in US procedures in case you ever want to go back again (and flying in the US comes highly recommended from many on these forums), and come home with a nice shiny PPL ready for the summer season!

Cheers
EA