Instructor/Student Relationship - a failure to communicate?
The Original Whirly
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Instructor/Student Relationship - a failure to communicate?
A helicopter instructor friend in the US just sent me a copy of an article from their AOPA Fight Training magazine, with a note saying some articles ought to be read and kept by all of us. I'll quote the first couple of paragraphs:
'Has this ever happened to you? It's a beautiful day. Light winds. Severe clear. There's not even any traffic on your drive to the airport. You arrive at your flight school only to find your instructor absent. No problem, it's happened before; you'll just go out, preflight the airplane, and wait for him to arrive - and wait, and wait, and wait. Finally he hurries out to the airplane straight from the parking lot, jumps in the cockpit, and says: "So what did we cover last time?"
When this happens do you (a) bite your lip and explain to him what happened during your last lesson as your stomach churns with frustration? Or (b) take off your headset and quietly, but directly, tell him that you are really disappointed in his lack of consideration and preparedness, and that you don't want it to happen again?
Well, it's happened to me plenty of times, and I definitely have to answer "a". At least, that's what I did, while I was working on my private pilot certificate. My instructors for subsequent training really wren't allowed as much latitude, although I still had plenty of sore lips. Why is that? If a repairman, auto mechanic, or someone else I am paying to provide a service doesn't deliver to my expectations I'm not shy about telling him or her.'
The rest of the article - and it's long - goes on about students' reluctance to address problems in the cockpit, and asks why. I know myself that this sort of thing happened, and that while I complained in the beginning, I gradually picked up on the sort of general attitude, which was that if you wanted to learn to fly, you just accepted the way things were. But why? I too am not normally backward in saying what I think. I suppose it was a new world, and I knew I had a lot to learn, and I wanted to fit in...but somehow that doesn't explain it really. We are the paying customers; why do so many of us act as though flying schools and instructors are doing us a favour?
Anyway, I just wondered what everyone experienced and/or thinks about this. The author finishes with "Five steps to conflict resolution", which are as follows:
1. Clearly identify what the problem is. As you do this, take an honest look at what part you might be playing in creating the problem. Nobody's perfect.
2. Immediately discuss the problem with your instructor. Make sure you state the problem clearly and don't confuse facts with emotion.
3. Give your instructor a chance to rectify the situation.
4. Agree on a plan of action and a reasonable time frame - and stick to it.
5. if that doesn't work, discuss the situation with his or her supervisor. Nobody likes to go over someone's head, but sometimes it's the only way to get that person's attention.
If you're still not satisfied, you may have to look for another instructor. After all, it's your time and money. No sense in wasting time working with someone who doesn't want to work with you.
Hmm, maybe that last section should be made a sticky for all the students who come on this forum asking about instructor problems.
I considered posting this on the instructors' forum, but finally decided to put it here. If any other instructors who frequent this forum think it's worth it, feel free to post a link over there.
'Has this ever happened to you? It's a beautiful day. Light winds. Severe clear. There's not even any traffic on your drive to the airport. You arrive at your flight school only to find your instructor absent. No problem, it's happened before; you'll just go out, preflight the airplane, and wait for him to arrive - and wait, and wait, and wait. Finally he hurries out to the airplane straight from the parking lot, jumps in the cockpit, and says: "So what did we cover last time?"
When this happens do you (a) bite your lip and explain to him what happened during your last lesson as your stomach churns with frustration? Or (b) take off your headset and quietly, but directly, tell him that you are really disappointed in his lack of consideration and preparedness, and that you don't want it to happen again?
Well, it's happened to me plenty of times, and I definitely have to answer "a". At least, that's what I did, while I was working on my private pilot certificate. My instructors for subsequent training really wren't allowed as much latitude, although I still had plenty of sore lips. Why is that? If a repairman, auto mechanic, or someone else I am paying to provide a service doesn't deliver to my expectations I'm not shy about telling him or her.'
The rest of the article - and it's long - goes on about students' reluctance to address problems in the cockpit, and asks why. I know myself that this sort of thing happened, and that while I complained in the beginning, I gradually picked up on the sort of general attitude, which was that if you wanted to learn to fly, you just accepted the way things were. But why? I too am not normally backward in saying what I think. I suppose it was a new world, and I knew I had a lot to learn, and I wanted to fit in...but somehow that doesn't explain it really. We are the paying customers; why do so many of us act as though flying schools and instructors are doing us a favour?
Anyway, I just wondered what everyone experienced and/or thinks about this. The author finishes with "Five steps to conflict resolution", which are as follows:
1. Clearly identify what the problem is. As you do this, take an honest look at what part you might be playing in creating the problem. Nobody's perfect.
2. Immediately discuss the problem with your instructor. Make sure you state the problem clearly and don't confuse facts with emotion.
3. Give your instructor a chance to rectify the situation.
4. Agree on a plan of action and a reasonable time frame - and stick to it.
5. if that doesn't work, discuss the situation with his or her supervisor. Nobody likes to go over someone's head, but sometimes it's the only way to get that person's attention.
If you're still not satisfied, you may have to look for another instructor. After all, it's your time and money. No sense in wasting time working with someone who doesn't want to work with you.
Hmm, maybe that last section should be made a sticky for all the students who come on this forum asking about instructor problems.
I considered posting this on the instructors' forum, but finally decided to put it here. If any other instructors who frequent this forum think it's worth it, feel free to post a link over there.
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'Has this ever happened to you? It's a beautiful day. Light winds. Severe clear. There's not even any traffic on your drive to the airport. You arrive at your flight school only to find your instructor absent.
We are the paying customers; why do so many of us act as though flying schools and instructors are doing us a favour?
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The best instructors I've had are the sort of people you're happy going out for a beer (or ten) with. In fact all my instructors have been like this, occasionally they have been late, but equally there are days I've phoned in with a stinking hangover to cancel 
There have also been days when we've both been sat in the plane ready to go, and one of us will mention "fancy a beer", and that'd be it, headsets off, and down to the pub
There have also been days when we've both been sat in the plane ready to go, and one of us will mention "fancy a beer", and that'd be it, headsets off, and down to the pub
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Interesting reading Whirly. I’ve flown with 5 instructors, and each had their own little foibles - I think you’d call it being human.
For me, communication is at the heart of the instructor / student relationship (if that’s not stating the obvious). My first instructor was very chatty and communicative, and offered constant feedback and constructive criticism. I learnt an awful lot from her, and I think we performed very effectively as a team. The next one had a tendency to say nothing until I did something wrong, and although I could follow his logic (if I’m not broke, don’t try and fix me) the result was that most of his comments were quite negative.
As I was in the latter stages of PPL training and reasonably self-confident, this didn’t bother me too much, but I could imagine how it could knock a low hours student – particularly someone who wasn’t too confident in the first place. I could also sense the potential for conflict had I been someone who responded badly to criticism.
I was quite philosophical, and figured that as a commercial pilot I’d have to fly with a whole range of personalities in any case, so I might as well get used to it. And of course, an approach that worked with me might have been wrong for someone else – it’s horses for courses. However, if I go down the instructing route, it has certainly given me an awareness that effective communication is vital to making sure the student gets the most out of the experience.
For me, communication is at the heart of the instructor / student relationship (if that’s not stating the obvious). My first instructor was very chatty and communicative, and offered constant feedback and constructive criticism. I learnt an awful lot from her, and I think we performed very effectively as a team. The next one had a tendency to say nothing until I did something wrong, and although I could follow his logic (if I’m not broke, don’t try and fix me) the result was that most of his comments were quite negative.
As I was in the latter stages of PPL training and reasonably self-confident, this didn’t bother me too much, but I could imagine how it could knock a low hours student – particularly someone who wasn’t too confident in the first place. I could also sense the potential for conflict had I been someone who responded badly to criticism.
I was quite philosophical, and figured that as a commercial pilot I’d have to fly with a whole range of personalities in any case, so I might as well get used to it. And of course, an approach that worked with me might have been wrong for someone else – it’s horses for courses. However, if I go down the instructing route, it has certainly given me an awareness that effective communication is vital to making sure the student gets the most out of the experience.
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Whirlybird
People put up with this c**p quite simply because the utterly decrepit GA scene doesn't attract discerning customers.
Most of the people that do turn up to learn to fly are desperate to fly - at least until the novelty wears off. Most of them can't really afford to fly anyway; if they could they would insist on much higher standards.
But if you run a typical flying school, count yourself lucky (in a bizzare sort of way): if all of your customers were discerning, you would end up with almost no students and would go bust as quickly as it takes you to hit your overdraft limit.
If anyone disagrees with this, I would like to hear a reasoned argument.
We are the paying customers; why do so many of us act as though flying schools and instructors are doing us a favour?
Most of the people that do turn up to learn to fly are desperate to fly - at least until the novelty wears off. Most of them can't really afford to fly anyway; if they could they would insist on much higher standards.
But if you run a typical flying school, count yourself lucky (in a bizzare sort of way): if all of your customers were discerning, you would end up with almost no students and would go bust as quickly as it takes you to hit your overdraft limit.
If anyone disagrees with this, I would like to hear a reasoned argument.
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Surely not...you fly then you beer...
Seen yer
How many schools hand out a form during or at the end of your training along the lines of:
We value your feedback
Please tell us how we could improve things
A set of questions which you can rate an answer of 1 to 5 with
1 = Excellent and 5 = pi$$ poor
What did you really like about your lesson today
What did you really dislike about your lesson today
How could we make your learning experience more enjoyable?
Would you recommend any of your friends to us (if not, why?)
I learnt to fly last year. For the main, I enjoyed the whole experience and I aim to do more this year subject to funds of course, but if you look at learning to fly in the bigger context of your paying somebody else for a service, no matter what it is, then things could be vastly improved.
We value your feedback
Please tell us how we could improve things
A set of questions which you can rate an answer of 1 to 5 with
1 = Excellent and 5 = pi$$ poor
What did you really like about your lesson today
What did you really dislike about your lesson today
How could we make your learning experience more enjoyable?
Would you recommend any of your friends to us (if not, why?)
I learnt to fly last year. For the main, I enjoyed the whole experience and I aim to do more this year subject to funds of course, but if you look at learning to fly in the bigger context of your paying somebody else for a service, no matter what it is, then things could be vastly improved.
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Only experienced it once, in the USA strangely enough.
The instructor was meant to be converting me to complex type and was a laid back 'surf dude' more interested in the wave conditions than the flying - the briefings did not give me what I needed, and the debrief was truncated (I do like to reflect and learn this way.).
After a disappointing first day I had a reasonable discussion with him and explained why I wanted things to be different the next day.
There was no change, so I went to his boss and asked for a different instructor, stressing that I wasn't doubting the bloke's ability, but thought that we were not ideally matched in temperament and that it would not work out.
I was assigned a different instructor, with whom I had a very productive 5 hours of flying and still managed to have a farewell beer with the original instructor, who was a nice guy.
The instructor was meant to be converting me to complex type and was a laid back 'surf dude' more interested in the wave conditions than the flying - the briefings did not give me what I needed, and the debrief was truncated (I do like to reflect and learn this way.).
After a disappointing first day I had a reasonable discussion with him and explained why I wanted things to be different the next day.
There was no change, so I went to his boss and asked for a different instructor, stressing that I wasn't doubting the bloke's ability, but thought that we were not ideally matched in temperament and that it would not work out.
I was assigned a different instructor, with whom I had a very productive 5 hours of flying and still managed to have a farewell beer with the original instructor, who was a nice guy.
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I'd like to support a point made in MikeeB's post: namely that FTOs should seek, actively, feedback from their successful and unsuccessful students. It's only in this way that continuing improvement may be discerned and effected.
I have no complaints about the school I attended, nor about the standard of instruction or attitude of instructors. I am, however, someone who has undertaken much training over the course of my life, both formal and informal, leading to many examinations and qualifications. In several fields, I now also train others, both one-to-one and in groups, and I also examine. I feel, therefore, that I have been able to understand the nature of training given to me, and to extract what I need from it - even if it is not as polished an exercise as it might be.
It would seem to me that a substantial number of people attracted to flying, and willing to seek to part with substantial sums in order to qualify as pilots, are probably used, in their professional lives outside flying, to sophisticated training methods, aids, and techniques. The impression is that many FTOs are perhaps 20 years behind in these matters.
(I hasten to add that the most significant feature of sophisticated training lies in the attitude of instructors, and the environment of instruction. It does not necessarily lie in the complexity, and expense, of instructional aids. There is not, therefore, necessarily, a requirement for FTOs to spend a great deal of capital.)
An empirical view of commercially available training aids reveals a certain amateurishness of production values. (I have not reviewed, for my purposes, the latest CBT aids on offer, but some videotape aids, or some literature, which I have seen seem to fall into this category.)
A first step, for all FTOs, in achieving a level of customer satisfaction in advance of their current levels must be to understand the perception of them formed by their students. This needs systematically to be gathered.
My personal experience is that, whilst individual instructors are generally interested in feedback, the organizations themselves are somewhat less interested.
I'd like to urge all FTOs meaningfully and actively to consult with their students: formally to do so will not only provide valuable information for the FTO, but will also aid the student (customer) to form the perception that they are dealing with a professional organization which takes its task seriously.
I have no complaints about the school I attended, nor about the standard of instruction or attitude of instructors. I am, however, someone who has undertaken much training over the course of my life, both formal and informal, leading to many examinations and qualifications. In several fields, I now also train others, both one-to-one and in groups, and I also examine. I feel, therefore, that I have been able to understand the nature of training given to me, and to extract what I need from it - even if it is not as polished an exercise as it might be.
It would seem to me that a substantial number of people attracted to flying, and willing to seek to part with substantial sums in order to qualify as pilots, are probably used, in their professional lives outside flying, to sophisticated training methods, aids, and techniques. The impression is that many FTOs are perhaps 20 years behind in these matters.
(I hasten to add that the most significant feature of sophisticated training lies in the attitude of instructors, and the environment of instruction. It does not necessarily lie in the complexity, and expense, of instructional aids. There is not, therefore, necessarily, a requirement for FTOs to spend a great deal of capital.)
An empirical view of commercially available training aids reveals a certain amateurishness of production values. (I have not reviewed, for my purposes, the latest CBT aids on offer, but some videotape aids, or some literature, which I have seen seem to fall into this category.)
A first step, for all FTOs, in achieving a level of customer satisfaction in advance of their current levels must be to understand the perception of them formed by their students. This needs systematically to be gathered.
My personal experience is that, whilst individual instructors are generally interested in feedback, the organizations themselves are somewhat less interested.
I'd like to urge all FTOs meaningfully and actively to consult with their students: formally to do so will not only provide valuable information for the FTO, but will also aid the student (customer) to form the perception that they are dealing with a professional organization which takes its task seriously.
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DRJAD
There is a commercial risk in lanching evaluation, namely that the customers start to think about the service and may become dissatisfied as a result.
I'm in the consulting and education business and always seek formal and informal feedback, but then again I am very confident of my services and products.
How confident are some flying schools?
There is a commercial risk in lanching evaluation, namely that the customers start to think about the service and may become dissatisfied as a result.
I'm in the consulting and education business and always seek formal and informal feedback, but then again I am very confident of my services and products.
How confident are some flying schools?
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F3G,
I believe, strongly, that, carried out carefully and professionally, the benefits of feedback surveys would outweigh the risk.
W.r.t. the confidence flying schools have in their training operations, this is my point precisely: many seem to wish to give the impression that they are not confident in their product.
(Whilst the quality of training is the paramount issue, how often does one see badly worded, or insufficiently detailed, 'promotional' material {either printed, or upon the WorldWideWeb}, insalubrious reception areas, obsolete equipment left in situ, an attitude amongst desk staff that the casual enquirer should 'know what to ask for', etc., etc.? These matters all militate against the student, and, in particular, the potential customer, regarding the training to be had as of high quality.)
I believe, strongly, that, carried out carefully and professionally, the benefits of feedback surveys would outweigh the risk.
W.r.t. the confidence flying schools have in their training operations, this is my point precisely: many seem to wish to give the impression that they are not confident in their product.
(Whilst the quality of training is the paramount issue, how often does one see badly worded, or insufficiently detailed, 'promotional' material {either printed, or upon the WorldWideWeb}, insalubrious reception areas, obsolete equipment left in situ, an attitude amongst desk staff that the casual enquirer should 'know what to ask for', etc., etc.? These matters all militate against the student, and, in particular, the potential customer, regarding the training to be had as of high quality.)
There is a commercial risk in lanching evaluation, namely that the customers start to think about the service and may become dissatisfied as a result.
I would hazzard a guess that currently the dissatisfied punter either walks away to another school or walks away from learning to fly completely. Who does that help?
It is a very short sighted view of a company in any field or service to exercise an ignorance of the paying customers perception of it.
To follow on, a mid 20's-30's guy (or girl) has good job and plenty of spare cash to spend on recreational activities. Some will pi$$ it up the wall every weekend (as I used to), some will buy an expensive motor, some will go on holiday to far and wide places, some will buy a motorbike (and do trackdays
etc. etc. In the car example, they pay 20-30k+ for a car, get a new one every 2-3 years and have an image that goes with that. Is it cool to fly an aeroplane, or even own one? It might be to a small minority, but I'm afraid to say, a lot of people think having a M3 on the drive is a much better "icon".
So what am I saying (as I appear to be going off topic)......
Flying is seen as ever so slightly "geekish" and this problem can probably be traced back to the standard of clubs, schools and instruction. Schools need to attract new blood to the realms of GA, but having an instructor turn up late for a lesson, not turn up at all, not know what you've done before, not know what your supposed to be doing, not know how to teach etc. does nothing to help. The only people who will put up with this are those with a childhood interest in learning to fly. The guy with his £47k M3 will get his "customer experience" from driving his car, and taking it for service, where he will be offered a cup of coffee, given somewhere nice to sit, a courtesy car, offered a lift to work/home, given a phone call to say what's going on etc. etc. etc.
I'm sure some people will disagree with my thinking, but were it not for my 'wanting' to fly, then sometime in the next few months, I'd have something like a Skyline R34 V-Spec, STi8, M3 or an M5 on the drive, I'd not do my IMC and certainly not bother trying to learn aero's this year.
If I get poor instruction in either I may walk away from flying and take the fast car/bike route.
Sorry to waffle BTW
Another line of attack is the current proliferation of speed camera's. A lot of people drive fast cars, or ride fast bikes to get a buzz. However the opportunity to go fast and get a buzz is now becoming confined to trackdays.
Some fresh thinking is what's needed !!!!!
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MikeeB
There was a thread here along these lines some weeks ago. The issue is actually pretty evident to any non-aviation businessperson who stumbles upon an airfield. The business badly needs to attract customers who have real money.
But GA is stuffed with traditionalists - from taildragger and antique type owners on farm strips all the way to the top at the GA Dept of the CAA. Just look at the fight which gets put up over GPS. Have you tried to mention GPS at one of those CAA safety evenings, and seen the emotions expressed in the (mostly 60+) audience? You can get GPS fitted in a much cheaper car than an M3.
And GPS usage is just a very small beginning of the modernisation which is badly needed. What you are really looking at is new modern planes - serious money.
There was a thread here along these lines some weeks ago. The issue is actually pretty evident to any non-aviation businessperson who stumbles upon an airfield. The business badly needs to attract customers who have real money.
But GA is stuffed with traditionalists - from taildragger and antique type owners on farm strips all the way to the top at the GA Dept of the CAA. Just look at the fight which gets put up over GPS. Have you tried to mention GPS at one of those CAA safety evenings, and seen the emotions expressed in the (mostly 60+) audience? You can get GPS fitted in a much cheaper car than an M3.
And GPS usage is just a very small beginning of the modernisation which is badly needed. What you are really looking at is new modern planes - serious money.
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IO540, could not agree with you more.
The "traditionalists" are the people that will kill general avaiation in the end. Why is GPS "evil" why is the wheel at the "wrong" end on a tricycle gear aircraft why is a transponder interfering with civil liberties.
Because GA is riddled with people from before time was recorded who are unprepared to change. They sit in crew rooms and on forums like this telling others how it should be done the "proper way".
I have a friend who has just bought a C152, fantastic condition with a great engine. News seats and dash etc. He has just spent £10k on avionics including a GNS 430. Why? because he wants modern avionics that work properly and give him proper situational awareness. He is not prepared to put up with the crap placarded put of use avionics in a school aircraft but neither does he want a high speed "glass ship" to cross half the planet in. He wants to spend a couple of hours on a summers afternoon cruising his way to the channel Islands and north France enjoying the flight and having no worries of infringing air space or having controllers not hear him because of a crap radio.
It is time that GA understands that the customers with the money want the same gadgets in the aircraft they fly as the car they drove to the airport in. Who wants to sit and twiddle the knobs on an analouge King 170 or RT385.
Even an aging old spam can like a 152 with some good avionics and a decent interior are a pleasure to fly.
Give me a DA40 or SR22 with a glass cockpit and I would happily pay more to fly.
The "traditionalists" are the people that will kill general avaiation in the end. Why is GPS "evil" why is the wheel at the "wrong" end on a tricycle gear aircraft why is a transponder interfering with civil liberties.
Because GA is riddled with people from before time was recorded who are unprepared to change. They sit in crew rooms and on forums like this telling others how it should be done the "proper way".
I have a friend who has just bought a C152, fantastic condition with a great engine. News seats and dash etc. He has just spent £10k on avionics including a GNS 430. Why? because he wants modern avionics that work properly and give him proper situational awareness. He is not prepared to put up with the crap placarded put of use avionics in a school aircraft but neither does he want a high speed "glass ship" to cross half the planet in. He wants to spend a couple of hours on a summers afternoon cruising his way to the channel Islands and north France enjoying the flight and having no worries of infringing air space or having controllers not hear him because of a crap radio.
It is time that GA understands that the customers with the money want the same gadgets in the aircraft they fly as the car they drove to the airport in. Who wants to sit and twiddle the knobs on an analouge King 170 or RT385.
Even an aging old spam can like a 152 with some good avionics and a decent interior are a pleasure to fly.
Give me a DA40 or SR22 with a glass cockpit and I would happily pay more to fly.
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IO540/bose-x
Bit more tolerance towards others, chaps. I'm not going to defend the GPS-bashing "traditionalists" that you so dislike, but you're not coming across any better.
There's room for all sorts in GA. Personally a C152 isn't my cup of tea, IFR-d or otherwise. Give me an old taildragger or something aerobatic any day (or both at the same time ). I drive to the aerodrome in a new car full of satnav and electronic driving aids, personally I don't want it in the aeroplane. But I'm not going to moan about someone that does.
Don't think I'm killing general aviation, and at 29 i'm not one of your 60+ "traditionalists" either. And I understand business, it's my job. Flying is a hobby. If anything will kill general aviation, it's this us vs. them, we're right, you're wrong, attitude you both seem so fond of. There are enough issues without people infighting.
(edit: I think I just took the bait...
)
Bit more tolerance towards others, chaps. I'm not going to defend the GPS-bashing "traditionalists" that you so dislike, but you're not coming across any better.
There's room for all sorts in GA. Personally a C152 isn't my cup of tea, IFR-d or otherwise. Give me an old taildragger or something aerobatic any day (or both at the same time
). I drive to the aerodrome in a new car full of satnav and electronic driving aids, personally I don't want it in the aeroplane. But I'm not going to moan about someone that does.
But GA is stuffed with traditionalists - from taildragger and antique type owners on farm strips all the way to the top at the GA Dept of the CAA
...
The "traditionalists" are the people that will kill general avaiation in the end. Why is GPS "evil" why is the wheel at the "wrong" end on a tricycle gear aircraft why is a transponder interfering with civil liberties.
...
The "traditionalists" are the people that will kill general avaiation in the end. Why is GPS "evil" why is the wheel at the "wrong" end on a tricycle gear aircraft why is a transponder interfering with civil liberties.
(edit: I think I just took the bait...
)
Last edited by Evo; 27th Jan 2004 at 02:02.
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Sorry Evo my comment was not meant to be an us/them statement. I don't care what end the wheel is on an aeroplane and I don't think that everyone should be forced into a GPS.
What I don't like is being told by people that you are not a a proper pilot if you fly a nosewheel or use a GPS and that sentiment is far more common than the one of lets move into the at least the present if not the future.
Take a look at many of the threads here when people ask for advice, the comments are always the same, "buy a proper aircraft with the wheel in the right place" etc etc.
Some people might just like the simplicity of flying a "simple" aeroplane and having some gadgets that help there situational awareness and feel demeand when told to go out learn to fly a proper aeroplane.
Lets face it a draughty 50 year aircraft that is requires "more" skill to fly is not everyones cup of tea!!! Nor is stomache churning there way around the sky doing aerobatics!
And for the record I like all of it and don't care which end the steering wheel is or which way is up. Contrary to your comments I am trying to be tolerant of all desires!
What I don't like is being told by people that you are not a a proper pilot if you fly a nosewheel or use a GPS and that sentiment is far more common than the one of lets move into the at least the present if not the future.
Take a look at many of the threads here when people ask for advice, the comments are always the same, "buy a proper aircraft with the wheel in the right place" etc etc.
Some people might just like the simplicity of flying a "simple" aeroplane and having some gadgets that help there situational awareness and feel demeand when told to go out learn to fly a proper aeroplane.
Lets face it a draughty 50 year aircraft that is requires "more" skill to fly is not everyones cup of tea!!! Nor is stomache churning there way around the sky doing aerobatics!
And for the record I like all of it and don't care which end the steering wheel is or which way is up. Contrary to your comments I am trying to be tolerant of all desires!
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There is also a commercial risk that if things stay as they are, numbers will drop and schools will go out of business due to Joe Public thinking that GA training is a farse.
It is a very short sighted view of a company in any field or service to exercise an ignorance of the paying customers perception of it.
I'm not defending poor business practices and PPL numbers have been declining ever since I got my licence years ago, but ....... there is an inertia built into the system, I tend to think based on the poor profitability of FBO businesses, many of which are labours of love.
BTW, I have connection with anyone running an aviation business
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Sorry Evo my comment was not meant to be an us/them statement....contrary to your comments I am trying to be tolerant of all desires!
My fear is that GA will follow sailing (esp. yachting). Ten years ago when I did a lot there still seemed to be room for everyone. Now, at least where I am, it is almost totally a rich mans hobby, where the social scene (full of the "right people" of course), latest GPS and radio are more important than wind and sea. Sound familiar? Maybe it makes more money than it did, but it's a lot worse for it. IMHO, of course
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Evo,
Yes, you've taken the bait
There is room for everybody, of course. Just as there is room for an owner of an antique car - nobody is suggesting that he should not drive it a few times a year just because the dual carriageway he drives on was paid for (in part, perhaps) by people who drive to work every day.
But try this: look at your local airfield (I could have picked a bad example but this is the general idea) and find out where its money comes from. Then look at how many people are doing PPL training (the CAA website has some figures but not very recent ones; for those you need to go ask a few school owners, privately...).
The traditionalists will indeed kill off GA. Not intentionally and not even through their presence. They will kill it off by ACTIVELY ensuring that, at every opportunity, it continues to look like a WW2 movie, with WW2 aircraft, with WW2 navigation, you name it. This prevents new people who can actually afford to fly fairly regularly being attracted.
But nobody is aware of this, because these people don't walk in, look around, say what they don't like, and walk out. What they do is they look in the sky and see WW2 planes rattling around. They sometimes drop in at the local airfield, see more WW2 planes rattling around; they politely smile and walk away.
Your sailing comment is interesting - why do you think the less affluent have dropped out of it?
Yes, you've taken the bait
There is room for everybody, of course. Just as there is room for an owner of an antique car - nobody is suggesting that he should not drive it a few times a year just because the dual carriageway he drives on was paid for (in part, perhaps) by people who drive to work every day.
But try this: look at your local airfield (I could have picked a bad example but this is the general idea) and find out where its money comes from. Then look at how many people are doing PPL training (the CAA website has some figures but not very recent ones; for those you need to go ask a few school owners, privately...).
The traditionalists will indeed kill off GA. Not intentionally and not even through their presence. They will kill it off by ACTIVELY ensuring that, at every opportunity, it continues to look like a WW2 movie, with WW2 aircraft, with WW2 navigation, you name it. This prevents new people who can actually afford to fly fairly regularly being attracted.
But nobody is aware of this, because these people don't walk in, look around, say what they don't like, and walk out. What they do is they look in the sky and see WW2 planes rattling around. They sometimes drop in at the local airfield, see more WW2 planes rattling around; they politely smile and walk away.
Your sailing comment is interesting - why do you think the less affluent have dropped out of it?