Instructor/Student Relationship - a failure to communicate?
The Original Whirly
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What about a flying club that has fancy new aircraft, AND old ones, and can teach you to fly any or all of them, and which welcomes you whoever you are and gives you coffee, whose instructors arrive on time and think the paying customer is important, where anyone from 16 to 90 can do a PPL or a taildragger conversion or just sit around and watch the aircraft but is still welcomed.
Well, i always was a dreamer....
Well, i always was a dreamer....
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Your sailing comment is interesting - why do you think the less affluent have dropped out of it?
It's all fine from a business point of view, the people who struggle to afford it weren't making you much money anyway. However, it replaces the people who struggle to afford it for the love of it with people who do it to fit the marketing that got them there in the first place. Business-wise it makes sense, but it's not such a nice place to be (edit: IMHO, of course
)
Last edited by Evo; 27th Jan 2004 at 03:22.
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Whirly
No reason indeed why not. I think the reason why it isn't likely to happen (even if the owner of the operation did obtain that mixture of aircraft) is that you won't attract the more discerning clients needed to fly the modern aircraft unless you advertise that you have modern aircraft, and do so pretty directly. This is going to mightily upset any operators of old planes in the area (i.e. just about everybody) and in GA there often isn't a great deal of love lost between adjacent schools as it is. Also if you do advertise them explicitly you will in effect be saying that the 1970s Cessnas you have are a pile of junk...
Evo
I suspect it varies according to the area. I have a number of very active sailing friends and they say it hasn't really changed that much - unless you use an upmarket marina which caters only for the gin palaces. There are still plenty of cheaper marinas. They also point out that some French company made it a lot more popular by bringing out boats which you could move about in...
But berthing isn't directly comparable to aircraft parking. A lot of planes live out on grass, and I think most airfields have enough room outdoors. It's hangarage that's a problem if anything, and that costs the same for a new plane as for an old one - a packet. So most older planes live outdoors.
Every leisure activity will have limits; sailing's limits are the near total lack of utility (5-10kt) and the vast amount of time involved, and how much you spend on the boat. Flying is limited mainly by weather, and how much you spend on the plane and training. In sailing, no training is required and there is negligible regulation, so modern methods/equipment are adopted if they work and can be afforded, without anyone being able to stop it. In aviation there is a lot of training and it's tightly regulated, so it's easy to hold up progress almost no matter how much money people have.
No reason indeed why not. I think the reason why it isn't likely to happen (even if the owner of the operation did obtain that mixture of aircraft) is that you won't attract the more discerning clients needed to fly the modern aircraft unless you advertise that you have modern aircraft, and do so pretty directly. This is going to mightily upset any operators of old planes in the area (i.e. just about everybody) and in GA there often isn't a great deal of love lost between adjacent schools as it is. Also if you do advertise them explicitly you will in effect be saying that the 1970s Cessnas you have are a pile of junk...
Evo
I suspect it varies according to the area. I have a number of very active sailing friends and they say it hasn't really changed that much - unless you use an upmarket marina which caters only for the gin palaces. There are still plenty of cheaper marinas. They also point out that some French company made it a lot more popular by bringing out boats which you could move about in...
But berthing isn't directly comparable to aircraft parking. A lot of planes live out on grass, and I think most airfields have enough room outdoors. It's hangarage that's a problem if anything, and that costs the same for a new plane as for an old one - a packet. So most older planes live outdoors.
Every leisure activity will have limits; sailing's limits are the near total lack of utility (5-10kt) and the vast amount of time involved, and how much you spend on the boat. Flying is limited mainly by weather, and how much you spend on the plane and training. In sailing, no training is required and there is negligible regulation, so modern methods/equipment are adopted if they work and can be afforded, without anyone being able to stop it. In aviation there is a lot of training and it's tightly regulated, so it's easy to hold up progress almost no matter how much money people have.
The Original Whirly
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Nr Fairy,
Nice idea! With helicopters too of course. And while we're about it, microlights, gyroplanes, and anything else interesting that flies. Now all I need is an airfield, instructors...and MONEY.
But to get back to the main point of this thread, I disagree with all this stuff about fancy aircraft and facilities and so on being what people want. I've heard to the same argument about why so few women learn to fly. Now, when I first walked into Welshpool Flying School, with no idea what to expect, I thought it would be like your average sailing club, which as an ex keen windsurfer I knew about, ie fancy cars, lush surroundings etc etc. I was surprised to see clapped out old cars and a portacabin type building. But none of it mattered because I was greeted with a big smile, given lots of info, and told to call any time if I wanted to book a trial lesson. When I booked that trial lesson my instructor was there, and was friendly, efficient and helpful. I liked that, and carried on...unfortunately he left and things went from bad to worse, but that's another story.
But the point I'm making is: what people want when they're learning to fly is SERVICE!!! Any intelligent person knows that they can buy a big fancy aircraft if they want once they have a licence, a cheaper one if they don't; if not, a few questions will tell them. I found that all out very early on, and I was the most aviation-ignorant non-technically minded person who ever set foot in a flying school - all I wanted to do at the time was find something exciting to do to get myself out of my longterm gloom and apathy caused by a death in the family and my own ill-health.
What every flying school needs is owners, staff, and instructors who put the students first. The rest is secondary. And to get back to the point of the article, which as you'll have gathered really struck a chord with me, why oh why aren't we insisting on it? Is it the British mustn't grumble mentality or what?
Nice idea! With helicopters too of course. And while we're about it, microlights, gyroplanes, and anything else interesting that flies. Now all I need is an airfield, instructors...and MONEY.
But to get back to the main point of this thread, I disagree with all this stuff about fancy aircraft and facilities and so on being what people want. I've heard to the same argument about why so few women learn to fly. Now, when I first walked into Welshpool Flying School, with no idea what to expect, I thought it would be like your average sailing club, which as an ex keen windsurfer I knew about, ie fancy cars, lush surroundings etc etc. I was surprised to see clapped out old cars and a portacabin type building. But none of it mattered because I was greeted with a big smile, given lots of info, and told to call any time if I wanted to book a trial lesson. When I booked that trial lesson my instructor was there, and was friendly, efficient and helpful. I liked that, and carried on...unfortunately he left and things went from bad to worse, but that's another story.
But the point I'm making is: what people want when they're learning to fly is SERVICE!!! Any intelligent person knows that they can buy a big fancy aircraft if they want once they have a licence, a cheaper one if they don't; if not, a few questions will tell them. I found that all out very early on, and I was the most aviation-ignorant non-technically minded person who ever set foot in a flying school - all I wanted to do at the time was find something exciting to do to get myself out of my longterm gloom and apathy caused by a death in the family and my own ill-health.
What every flying school needs is owners, staff, and instructors who put the students first. The rest is secondary. And to get back to the point of the article, which as you'll have gathered really struck a chord with me, why oh why aren't we insisting on it? Is it the British mustn't grumble mentality or what?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Whirly definitely is young enough to start a school like that, and when I get my FI(R) I'd be more than happy to work for her. We do need more schools like that!
As for:
I disagree. It all depends how you phrase it. How about, just as an example:
"Whether you would like to train in modern, high-tech aircraft with state-of-the-art navigation equipment, or a classic open-cockpit aircraft such as the Tiger Moth, or anything in between, we have the aircraft to suit your needs."
Prices would, of course, reflect the aircraft, so that those who want modern equipment would pay for it, and those who can't afford modern equipment would still be welcomed too.
Now, all we need is a bit of funding, a few more willing instructors, and an airfield to base ourselves out of......
FFF
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As for:
If you do advertise them [your state-of-the-art aircraft] explicitly you will in effect be saying that the 1970s Cessnas you have are a pile of junk
"Whether you would like to train in modern, high-tech aircraft with state-of-the-art navigation equipment, or a classic open-cockpit aircraft such as the Tiger Moth, or anything in between, we have the aircraft to suit your needs."
Prices would, of course, reflect the aircraft, so that those who want modern equipment would pay for it, and those who can't afford modern equipment would still be welcomed too.
Now, all we need is a bit of funding, a few more willing instructors, and an airfield to base ourselves out of......
FFF
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Part of it is the British don't complain, a part is that the people who get attracted to the scene are so keen to fly they don't care.
When saying these things, people tend to take them personally, but those already inside the business are not seeing it from the outside. It is the view from the outside which determines who will walk in, and the people presently walking in just happen to not be too bothered.
You say "Any intelligent person knows that they can buy a big fancy aircraft if they want once they have a licence" but then why do so many people moan about the cost of flying? Anybody who gets that far can add-up, which means they can work out on day 1 they won't be able to afford it in the long term.
When saying these things, people tend to take them personally, but those already inside the business are not seeing it from the outside. It is the view from the outside which determines who will walk in, and the people presently walking in just happen to not be too bothered.
You say "Any intelligent person knows that they can buy a big fancy aircraft if they want once they have a licence" but then why do so many people moan about the cost of flying? Anybody who gets that far can add-up, which means they can work out on day 1 they won't be able to afford it in the long term.
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Other factors you need to consider in your argument is the cost of compliance with regulation, relatively high interest rates in the UK compared to the rest of the world and also economies of scale for non commercially oriented schools.
These all impact on the smaller flying schools.
Other factors you need to consider in your argument is the cost of compliance with regulation, relatively high interest rates in the UK compared to the rest of the world and also economies of scale for non commercially oriented schools.
These all impact on the smaller flying schools.
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Whirly.
I agree entirely with your proposition: the customer/student requires service.
We have been debating issues around mechanism: surveys, etc.. The central issue, though, is to manage the perception created of GA in such a way as to make it an attractive proposition for many differing types of people.
Of course there will be those who seek a nostalgic experience, just as there will be those who seek, at, perhaps, the other end of the scale, an experience redolent of the latest technological aids. Both should be encouraged, with all those who lie between the extremes. They will not, however, be encouraged by a laissez-faire attitude, by poorly presented facilities, by a casual attitude to punctuality, by a similarly casual attitude to the techniques of teaching and human communication, etc., etc..
These items are not necessarily expensive to improve, but, if the activity is to continue and grow, must be addressed.
I agree entirely with your proposition: the customer/student requires service.
We have been debating issues around mechanism: surveys, etc.. The central issue, though, is to manage the perception created of GA in such a way as to make it an attractive proposition for many differing types of people.
Of course there will be those who seek a nostalgic experience, just as there will be those who seek, at, perhaps, the other end of the scale, an experience redolent of the latest technological aids. Both should be encouraged, with all those who lie between the extremes. They will not, however, be encouraged by a laissez-faire attitude, by poorly presented facilities, by a casual attitude to punctuality, by a similarly casual attitude to the techniques of teaching and human communication, etc., etc..
These items are not necessarily expensive to improve, but, if the activity is to continue and grow, must be addressed.
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I think flying schools could do a lot more to generate new business. For example, how many people outside of avaition do you know who've even heard of the NPPL? I also think a lot are put off by the quality of planes available. Having tatty (even though well maintained) planes is inexcusable.
Also, I don't think about it now, but the first time I had carb heat explained to me, I thought, "What the ****'s going on"? Fuel injection has been around for God knows how long and you're still using carburetters - even though they can kill you?". This is musuem technology - Morgan cars might look good, but how many people drive them? Wobbling about on the motorway with drum brakes 50 years after ABS was invented is very much a minority pastime. Training planes should be new(ish), comfortable and modern. And for people whose knowledge of planes stretches to being able to identify Concorde and Spitfires - let's face it, Cessnas are pig-ugly.
All this costs money obviously, but an increase in potential flyers = an increase in revenue.
(Sorry for the tangent Whirly - you're right, bad service in whatever form is unacceptable, but I thought the British were starting to grow out of their 'mustn't grumble' attitude).
Also, I don't think about it now, but the first time I had carb heat explained to me, I thought, "What the ****'s going on"? Fuel injection has been around for God knows how long and you're still using carburetters - even though they can kill you?". This is musuem technology - Morgan cars might look good, but how many people drive them? Wobbling about on the motorway with drum brakes 50 years after ABS was invented is very much a minority pastime. Training planes should be new(ish), comfortable and modern. And for people whose knowledge of planes stretches to being able to identify Concorde and Spitfires - let's face it, Cessnas are pig-ugly.
All this costs money obviously, but an increase in potential flyers = an increase in revenue.
(Sorry for the tangent Whirly - you're right, bad service in whatever form is unacceptable, but I thought the British were starting to grow out of their 'mustn't grumble' attitude).
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As a long-time instructor who has flown many different types of aircraft, I get a great deal of pleasure teaching in brand new clean aeroplanes but equally enjoy occasionally flying the old ones. This post started on the communication problem, but possibly one explanation could be that the guy who can afford all these gadgets and aspires to own and fly a new aeroplane has earned his money by being successful and not putting up with **** from anyone. Entering the world of GA may be a bit of a time warp to some, but the student might just get better service if he was to recognise that the instructor has had to go through an enormous financial struggle to get to be an instructor and deserves to be treated as a professional, yet the **** pay he is receiving is only allowing him to drive around in an old banger or even to get to work on a rusty pushbike.
There is thus a huge disparity between student and instructor. Often it seems that the student thinks that the instructor is paid well because the lesson is costing over £100 per hour, when the reality is that the instructor who has shelled out £60K to get to being an instructor is lucky to make £8000 per year. And that is working 7 days a week. So that is why the instructor is sometimes late as he has to fit in other bits of life such as domestic errands sometime....
There is thus a huge disparity between student and instructor. Often it seems that the student thinks that the instructor is paid well because the lesson is costing over £100 per hour, when the reality is that the instructor who has shelled out £60K to get to being an instructor is lucky to make £8000 per year. And that is working 7 days a week. So that is why the instructor is sometimes late as he has to fit in other bits of life such as domestic errands sometime....
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With the very greatest of respect, if the client is paying £100 per hour then punctuality should be a given.
The 'student' is probably experiencing an opportunity cost of another £100 per hour on top of the fees in not doing what they would nornally do and is being punished for being professional and arriving on time - would the instructor like to be kept waiting?
As to serving a low paid apprenticeship, most of us have done that and invested a lot of money in our education both directly (e.g. for me 1 UK post grad programme, 2 in the US and a masters degree in the UK and a globally recognised vocational qualification, all self funded - and not cheap.) I also worked long hours for peanuts in my twenties to tee up my 30s and 40s.
It is a personal decision and I do not consider instructors to be any different to other professionals in this respect - its a back loaded, risky, enterprise and many more will not captain widebodies, than will, but everyone should know the position at the start.
Also, let me point out that many instructors are also benefitting by hours building funded by the student, a main driver for wannabees.
With the very greatest of respect, if the client is paying £100 per hour then punctuality should be a given.
The 'student' is probably experiencing an opportunity cost of another £100 per hour on top of the fees in not doing what they would nornally do and is being punished for being professional and arriving on time - would the instructor like to be kept waiting?
As to serving a low paid apprenticeship, most of us have done that and invested a lot of money in our education both directly (e.g. for me 1 UK post grad programme, 2 in the US and a masters degree in the UK and a globally recognised vocational qualification, all self funded - and not cheap.) I also worked long hours for peanuts in my twenties to tee up my 30s and 40s.
It is a personal decision and I do not consider instructors to be any different to other professionals in this respect - its a back loaded, risky, enterprise and many more will not captain widebodies, than will, but everyone should know the position at the start.
Also, let me point out that many instructors are also benefitting by hours building funded by the student, a main driver for wannabees.
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Lady in red
Couldn't have put it better myself 
However - if an instructor has spent £60k, surely he/she is aiming for an airline job and will clear off the instant one turns up. Instructing is just a subsidised route to an ATPL, for someone who doesn't have the cash to do it the full-time training route but has a few years to play with.
Nobody would spend £60k to become a PPL instructor - would they??
possibly one explanation could be that the guy who can afford all these gadgets and aspires to own and fly a new aeroplane has earned his money by being successful and not putting up with **** from anyone
However - if an instructor has spent £60k, surely he/she is aiming for an airline job and will clear off the instant one turns up. Instructing is just a subsidised route to an ATPL, for someone who doesn't have the cash to do it the full-time training route but has a few years to play with.
Nobody would spend £60k to become a PPL instructor - would they??
PINKS WORLD THROUGH ROSE COLOURED SPECS
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PINKSTER HERE POPPING IN.
Still a student and sckiving off studying for exams today ,so browsing .
I want to say ,(and I think stafer said it to .)
I have really only flown the one type of aircraft ,but at three different clubs now.
They have all been old . Tomahalks .PA38.
I realise now that they have stopped making them so they are going to be old .
Hi TEC EQUIPMENT ,means not alot to me ,but seeing windows stuck together with sticking plaster ,and rattling doors and SKY through the top of the hatch ,
Is a little bit scary when you are new ,or just having a trial flight .
As A TRIAL FLIGHTER ,
(which I have never been )
I would be most upset and put off by a tatty
(seemingly looking unsafe to a lay person)
aircraft ,and may be would not wish to pursue further training.
I for one ,(if I had more money ) would prefer to train in a smarter aircraft .
But I havn't ,so I have to continue in what is on offer .
OH yes
I do prefere a proffetional approach in white shirts ,stripes and
a friendly happy face .
Just seen the title of the thread ,so this is maybe not relavant ,but it seemed to be relavant to comments on page 2.(or 3)
the PINKSTER
I want to say ,(and I think stafer said it to .)
I have really only flown the one type of aircraft ,but at three different clubs now.
They have all been old . Tomahalks .PA38.
I realise now that they have stopped making them so they are going to be old .
Hi TEC EQUIPMENT ,means not alot to me ,but seeing windows stuck together with sticking plaster ,and rattling doors and SKY through the top of the hatch ,
Is a little bit scary when you are new ,or just having a trial flight .
As A TRIAL FLIGHTER ,
(which I have never been )
I would be most upset and put off by a tatty
(seemingly looking unsafe to a lay person)
aircraft ,and may be would not wish to pursue further training.
I for one ,(if I had more money ) would prefer to train in a smarter aircraft .
But I havn't ,so I have to continue in what is on offer .
OH yes
I do prefere a proffetional approach in white shirts ,stripes and
a friendly happy face .
Just seen the title of the thread ,so this is maybe not relavant ,but it seemed to be relavant to comments on page 2.(or 3)
the PINKSTER
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My fear is that GA will follow sailing (esp. yachting).
Only someone with no business sense would run up £60k in debt to become an instructor. I think the £60k debt person has the ulterior motive of becoming an airline pilot, being paid a decent salary.
There is no need, if you want to become a career instructor, get a job, pay for your flying in chunks, and then enter the world of instructing 3 years later with no debt.
Unless of course you are aiming for a RHS of a Boeing.....
EA
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Pinkster
Welcome to the world of the Terrorhawk - look at the door latches on some ..... the're made of thick wire.
And the tail waggles like **** if you spin them, but surprisingly you survive the experience.
And the Terrorhawk is one of the more modern bits of kit on the GA fleet first produced in the mid 70s.
You won't be 'sucked out' because there's a bit of light around the door and the experience in a R22 is even more focusing of one's attention in this regard (your view Whirly??)
Things stuck together with sticking plaster would make me think though - are you absolutely certain this was true and it was not an approved repair that looked like it?
rattling doors and SKY through the top of the hatch ,
And the tail waggles like **** if you spin them, but surprisingly you survive the experience.
And the Terrorhawk is one of the more modern bits of kit on the GA fleet first produced in the mid 70s.
You won't be 'sucked out' because there's a bit of light around the door and the experience in a R22 is even more focusing of one's attention in this regard (your view Whirly??)
Things stuck together with sticking plaster would make me think though - are you absolutely certain this was true and it was not an approved repair that looked like it?
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Pinkster
The PA38 was, I believe, made for only two years around 1980, with production stopped due to adverse publicity following a number of fatal accidents. Why flying schools in the UK operate the type I don't know. For starters, many people who train in them will be unable to get access to the type after they get their PPL (very few about) so it's a waste of the student's money for that reason alone.
I've got about 25 hrs in the PA38 and remember well the engine cowling latches which hang on by their fingernails It has a very exciting stall which is used by instructors to support training in it ("proper stall behaviour").
Englishal
I pay £4000/year for hangarage, but this could be halved by parking on grass (and accepting the rotting plane and rotting avionics).
I don't think sailing can be compared to GA (for the purpose of working out why GA is suffering from lack of participants) because the profile of the people is so different - sailing requires a vast amount of time to get into properly but requires no training and no ability to pass exams, understand technical things, etc.
The PA38 was, I believe, made for only two years around 1980, with production stopped due to adverse publicity following a number of fatal accidents. Why flying schools in the UK operate the type I don't know. For starters, many people who train in them will be unable to get access to the type after they get their PPL (very few about) so it's a waste of the student's money for that reason alone.
I've got about 25 hrs in the PA38 and remember well the engine cowling latches which hang on by their fingernails
It has a very exciting stall which is used by instructors to support training in it ("proper stall behaviour").Englishal
I pay £4000/year for hangarage, but this could be halved by parking on grass (and accepting the rotting plane and rotting avionics).
I don't think sailing can be compared to GA (for the purpose of working out why GA is suffering from lack of participants) because the profile of the people is so different - sailing requires a vast amount of time to get into properly but requires no training and no ability to pass exams, understand technical things, etc.
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emmmmmmmmmmmmm
Might have exagerated a bit abot the sticking plaster bit . SORRY
BUT
It did look abit like sticky tape .
THE PINKSTER
BUT
It did look abit like sticky tape .
THE PINKSTER
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Hmmmm
After completing Yachtmaster exams I turned to powerboats and found that there were exams there too......to hire a boat whilst on holiday you have to produce an ICC (International certificate of competence).
There is a definite worry in the sailing fraternity that Tony Blairs boys are considering the introduction of mandatory exams for sailors.
So not quite true that there are no exam requirements in sailing, just British sailing.
And now I'm 2/45ths towards a PPL......
After completing Yachtmaster exams I turned to powerboats and found that there were exams there too......to hire a boat whilst on holiday you have to produce an ICC (International certificate of competence).
There is a definite worry in the sailing fraternity that Tony Blairs boys are considering the introduction of mandatory exams for sailors.
So not quite true that there are no exam requirements in sailing, just British sailing.
And now I'm 2/45ths towards a PPL......