The Quality of your Instruction…
Nah - this is PPRuNe at its best - a spicy chilli of debate and passionate sparks flying argument. Much better than the semolina we so often get on Private Flying.
Cheers
WWW
Cheers
WWW
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TPR
I don't know much about the other forums, as I don't read them. But as Evo said, don't go away. Private Flying forum is usually much friendlier than this thread, and you will find it a very useful place for getting helpful information.
Live you to your name, and rise from the ashes of a bad experience.
dp
I don't know much about the other forums, as I don't read them. But as Evo said, don't go away. Private Flying forum is usually much friendlier than this thread, and you will find it a very useful place for getting helpful information.
Live you to your name, and rise from the ashes of a bad experience.
dp
The Original Whirly
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BRL,
I really think you should leave this thread. In between WWW stirring it because he's bored and likes a fight (well, you more or less said that, WWW), Phoenix getting outraged at being called a liar (and he was), and various naive people saying it couldn't happen (it could and it does, sadly), a lot of important points are being made. This thread needs to stay.
I really think you should leave this thread. In between WWW stirring it because he's bored and likes a fight (well, you more or less said that, WWW), Phoenix getting outraged at being called a liar (and he was), and various naive people saying it couldn't happen (it could and it does, sadly), a lot of important points are being made. This thread needs to stay.
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I've retracted the bit about calling Pheonix a liar, but I am still very wary about what the instructor is itimated to have said, no sane individual would ever say it.
Whirly, I wouldn't mind being called naive if it were the case. Having been around many schools and instructors and being an arch cynic, I cannot think of any who would think that acceptable and I've been to some pretty appalling places(Nah.. can't bring myself to name any here) and some fantastic ones (Tiger Heli's for example) and nobody would ever send a student if there were alot of CB's around.
I will agree that the place sounds a shambles and I would suggest that TPR goes else where for his training. A private FI is a very good way of going if you can find a good one. I would like to know the names of places like this, so that I never inadvertantly suggest somebody give them a try.
Whirly, I wouldn't mind being called naive if it were the case. Having been around many schools and instructors and being an arch cynic, I cannot think of any who would think that acceptable and I've been to some pretty appalling places(Nah.. can't bring myself to name any here) and some fantastic ones (Tiger Heli's for example) and nobody would ever send a student if there were alot of CB's around.
I will agree that the place sounds a shambles and I would suggest that TPR goes else where for his training. A private FI is a very good way of going if you can find a good one. I would like to know the names of places like this, so that I never inadvertantly suggest somebody give them a try.
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Hi Whirly. I see what you are saying and you have given me another option for this thread. If it doesn't pick up then I will lock it and leave it. That way it stays around for others to see.
The problem with it, as I see is, that it has degenerated into a cat-fight/spicy argument, whatever one wants to call it and it is not good reading for some. I have left it for a while for the purposes that you rightly state, that there are a lot of important points that are being made, but a quick look at the last page confirms what my point is.
I can say, it might even deter people from reading pprune if every thread was like this. They would simply look elsewhere. I don't want that. You lot have made this into a pretty busy forum, no crap, no real nastiness, no backstabbing and so on and so on. This is why people keep coming back, most of the crap is elsewhere. Have a look at what Evo and Dublinpilot say. That just sums our forum up nicely.
If people want "spicy" arguments then I suggest they take up commercial flying and go to the forum just for them.
The problem with it, as I see is, that it has degenerated into a cat-fight/spicy argument, whatever one wants to call it and it is not good reading for some. I have left it for a while for the purposes that you rightly state, that there are a lot of important points that are being made, but a quick look at the last page confirms what my point is.
I can say, it might even deter people from reading pprune if every thread was like this. They would simply look elsewhere. I don't want that. You lot have made this into a pretty busy forum, no crap, no real nastiness, no backstabbing and so on and so on. This is why people keep coming back, most of the crap is elsewhere. Have a look at what Evo and Dublinpilot say. That just sums our forum up nicely.
If people want "spicy" arguments then I suggest they take up commercial flying and go to the forum just for them.
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Hi folks:
Another quick visit, from the hotel room telephone connection.
Thanks for your continued input and comments. One thing I must clarify and correct, though, and straight away: I read just now, on skimming through to keep updated, that someone wrote that my QXC was my first solo nav. This is not correct, it wasn't and I did not say that it was. It was my second - please see original post to this thread. I think whoever it was has perhaps mis-read my posting/s.
You know, whether you believe me or not (and I am very grateful to those who do, which I think seems to be most of you) the important thing here for me is that you think that what occurred to me is pretty astonishing and hence the reason for disbelief. That, in itself - when I step back from the earlier feeling of being a bit miffed - is of great value, since it shows what should not be happening.
I have no intention of leaving PPRuNe, don't worry! You are all, I feel, a good bunch of folks at heart. And, just look at the energy and enthusiasm that you throw at a thread...!
Thanks again, and I'll respond more when I am back at base again.
TP
Another quick visit, from the hotel room telephone connection.
Thanks for your continued input and comments. One thing I must clarify and correct, though, and straight away: I read just now, on skimming through to keep updated, that someone wrote that my QXC was my first solo nav. This is not correct, it wasn't and I did not say that it was. It was my second - please see original post to this thread. I think whoever it was has perhaps mis-read my posting/s.
You know, whether you believe me or not (and I am very grateful to those who do, which I think seems to be most of you) the important thing here for me is that you think that what occurred to me is pretty astonishing and hence the reason for disbelief. That, in itself - when I step back from the earlier feeling of being a bit miffed - is of great value, since it shows what should not be happening.
I have no intention of leaving PPRuNe, don't worry! You are all, I feel, a good bunch of folks at heart. And, just look at the energy and enthusiasm that you throw at a thread...!
Thanks again, and I'll respond more when I am back at base again.
TP
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In between WWW stirring it because he's bored and likes a fight (well, you more or less said that, WWW)
The Original Whirly
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SAS,
Perhaps calling you naive was a trifle over the top; my apologies. I was thinking of a particular flying school, no longer in existence, where I have heard from various different and informed sources that such things did happen, mainly due to an owner who was determined to keep his aircraft flying at all costs. If it can happen once...
BRL,
Point taken; moderate as you see fit.
Evo
I agree with you about WWW. I think he should go and stir things on some other forum, not here. And not for so little reason.
Perhaps calling you naive was a trifle over the top; my apologies. I was thinking of a particular flying school, no longer in existence, where I have heard from various different and informed sources that such things did happen, mainly due to an owner who was determined to keep his aircraft flying at all costs. If it can happen once...
BRL,
Point taken; moderate as you see fit.
Evo
I agree with you about WWW. I think he should go and stir things on some other forum, not here. And not for so little reason.
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Yeah I think I know the one you mean, I heard some frightening things about that place just over the Welsh border. Thankfully it is no longer with us.
It may be nice to have a list and rating system for all flying schools around the country, but I think the legal implications could be daft, but it may help to stop incidents such as the ones described.
It may be nice to have a list and rating system for all flying schools around the country, but I think the legal implications could be daft, but it may help to stop incidents such as the ones described.
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BRL - I think (hope) you're in the minority here. I for one am enjoying this thread. We are all big boys and girls here and I don't see anyone leaving pprune in disgust because someone anoymous called another anoymous person a name, or because of a few 'passionate' statements on one thread.
This thread is useful for the orginal poster and entertaining for the rest of us - what more do you want?
PS W3 -
You can forget the hug, but I'll let you buy the first round!
This thread is useful for the orginal poster and entertaining for the rest of us - what more do you want?
PS W3 -
Shall we all have a hug now and go down the pub?
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I wonder just what it does take to get a school closed down. Or, for that matter, is it right to actually close a school down? You could have a perfectly good person owning the business and a rogue instructor who does his dodgy stuff outside of anyone's view so the owner has only got rumour to go on. I've seen very dodgy instructors (the sort who do fully developed spins on a trial lesson, coming back with white-faced passengers) stay for years.
I am aware that my comments here are often negative but I've seen so many dodgy practices (poor record-keeping of fuel tank content being just one recently-topical example) that if one was do get strict, more than half of schools would close tomorrow.
I am aware that my comments here are often negative but I've seen so many dodgy practices (poor record-keeping of fuel tank content being just one recently-topical example) that if one was do get strict, more than half of schools would close tomorrow.
I still don't agree with not using Radio Nav aids (or knowing how to use them) before doing your QXC.
Of course each school/instructor has different thoughts on this, but I had to fly a triangle using radio nav's before I was allowed to go off on my QXC.
From my own personnal POV, I was very happy about this, as it gave me much needed confidence that I may not have had, should I not have demonstrated to an instructor that I could indeed fly from A to B to C and back to A without looking out the window to get a ground fix.
Quite early on in my navigation exercises, I was also flow to a place (i.e. simulate been lost) by an instructor, then told to pin point my location using radio nav aids and plot a course to somewhere.
At the right school, and with the right instructor(s), they should be able to make the call as to if you are upto the job of using them or not, and at what speed to introduce them into your flying.
I actually cocked up one of my first duel nav exercises, and the instructor asked me the question "do you know how do use VOR's". I said yes, and he said "well use this one to get us home then, since you've cocked your sheet up". (which I did).
I'd much rather learn to fly at a school that teaches you at a pace that matches your capabilities, rather than one that follows a set pattern for each and every student, regardless.
Of course each school/instructor has different thoughts on this, but I had to fly a triangle using radio nav's before I was allowed to go off on my QXC.
From my own personnal POV, I was very happy about this, as it gave me much needed confidence that I may not have had, should I not have demonstrated to an instructor that I could indeed fly from A to B to C and back to A without looking out the window to get a ground fix.
Quite early on in my navigation exercises, I was also flow to a place (i.e. simulate been lost) by an instructor, then told to pin point my location using radio nav aids and plot a course to somewhere.
At the right school, and with the right instructor(s), they should be able to make the call as to if you are upto the job of using them or not, and at what speed to introduce them into your flying.
I actually cocked up one of my first duel nav exercises, and the instructor asked me the question "do you know how do use VOR's". I said yes, and he said "well use this one to get us home then, since you've cocked your sheet up". (which I did).
I'd much rather learn to fly at a school that teaches you at a pace that matches your capabilities, rather than one that follows a set pattern for each and every student, regardless.
The Original Whirly
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Mikee,
I don't think being up to using navaids is the point. I personally think that the QXC should show to a student that it's possible to fly anywhere using nothing but map and compass. That includes finding yourself again after you've got lost. Too many people, PPLs and instructors included, think it's not possible, or not necessary. It's quite possible, and not difficult; but it requires practice, and if you don't get that practice for your PPL, when will you? Of course navaids, GPS etc are useful too. But you need to be able to cope when your GPS dies, and you're in an area with no VORs etc - and there are lots of those; ever flown in Wales or Scotland?
I don't think being up to using navaids is the point. I personally think that the QXC should show to a student that it's possible to fly anywhere using nothing but map and compass. That includes finding yourself again after you've got lost. Too many people, PPLs and instructors included, think it's not possible, or not necessary. It's quite possible, and not difficult; but it requires practice, and if you don't get that practice for your PPL, when will you? Of course navaids, GPS etc are useful too. But you need to be able to cope when your GPS dies, and you're in an area with no VORs etc - and there are lots of those; ever flown in Wales or Scotland?
Supercharged PPRuNer
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[effects dodgy scouse accent and shouts "caam down, caam down"]
Having a row is dead easy on a bulletin board. Someone goes fishing or throws an ill-judged remark into the debate, someone else bites, everyone takes sides and off we go. That’s one of the downsides of communication on the internet – people have the cloak of anonymity; we cannot see an expression, hear a tone of voice. We can only express ourselves through what we write, and some people are better at it than others.
It doesn’t happen face to face. I’m fortunate enough to have met many of the contributors to this thread (in various states of inebriation) and there isn’t one of them I wouldn’t want to have a pint with again. At my first Gatbash a group of us stood in a circle and, after the introductions were out of the way, one of the first comments was; “This is Pprune - shouldn’t we have an argument now?” And we all had a good laugh.
For anyone new to Pprune, or anyone who doesn’t get the chance to put faces to names at the bashes, don’t take it too seriously – I certainly don’t. It’s only a website, after all.
To reinforce the message much more eloquently than I can manage, take a few minutes to read the best posting I have ever seen on Pprune – Sick Squid’s reply, 4th post from the top:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...5&pagenumber=2
Yes, there are some silly comments made by some pretty silly people who should know better. C’est la vie. Be prepared to sort the wheat from the chaff, and Pprune will provide you with many real gems of information. IMHO, this thread is a classic example of that.
Having a row is dead easy on a bulletin board. Someone goes fishing or throws an ill-judged remark into the debate, someone else bites, everyone takes sides and off we go. That’s one of the downsides of communication on the internet – people have the cloak of anonymity; we cannot see an expression, hear a tone of voice. We can only express ourselves through what we write, and some people are better at it than others.
It doesn’t happen face to face. I’m fortunate enough to have met many of the contributors to this thread (in various states of inebriation) and there isn’t one of them I wouldn’t want to have a pint with again. At my first Gatbash a group of us stood in a circle and, after the introductions were out of the way, one of the first comments was; “This is Pprune - shouldn’t we have an argument now?” And we all had a good laugh.
For anyone new to Pprune, or anyone who doesn’t get the chance to put faces to names at the bashes, don’t take it too seriously – I certainly don’t. It’s only a website, after all.
To reinforce the message much more eloquently than I can manage, take a few minutes to read the best posting I have ever seen on Pprune – Sick Squid’s reply, 4th post from the top:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...5&pagenumber=2
Yes, there are some silly comments made by some pretty silly people who should know better. C’est la vie. Be prepared to sort the wheat from the chaff, and Pprune will provide you with many real gems of information. IMHO, this thread is a classic example of that.
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BRL,
Don't delete the thread dude, after all, it just reflects life, lots of people with lots of differing opinions, not all of which will see eye to eye!
I can't think of a school that would send someone off on their 1st solo navex and then make it QXC, but it doesn't mean to say it doesn't happen. There are a lot of really appalling schools out there, whatever WWW may say and let’s face it, he’s not exactly the customer is he!
F'instance, I was sent off on a QXC in marginal weather, vis. at 1st destination was under 8km, I think the minimum is 10km, correct me if I'm wrong. Upon arrival at the 1st destination, it started to pee with rain, so I phoned the club, who asked me to return, saying the weather at the departure was acceptable. Note the word return, not deviate. Returning to my departure airfield, I strayed into IMC, got lost and eventually landed with a hoooge CB less than 2 miles away from the end of the runway and a crosswind of 20 knots (I was flying a 152). Oh dear!
I completed by QXC a week later, but to be honest, the whole experience scared the crap out of me and I gave up flying shortly afterwards. After a 3-year break I'm now 2 hours away from skills test.
This particular club made me fly with no less than 8 instructors, some of highly dubious proficiency and a couple with inter-personal skills of the Adams family! They didn’t bother with ground school, or proper briefs and definitely were of ‘light the fires and kick the tyres’ mentality, which may be a jolly wheeze, but is not exactly beneficial to your budding PPL!
I have had problems with the customer care side of the club I currently fly with and have posted a couple of threads about this, after a 'debate' with the club, these have been resolved and it's now a friendly and good place to fly.
I am sure the Phoenix has a bad time of it and some of what he says may be exaggerated or not, who am I judge. The point is the general standard of instruction and quality of a/c, school facilities and customer care of GA schools in this country is appalling. I know there are good schools and good instructors, but they are the exception, not the norm IMHO.
Flying is expensive and takes commitment and determination on the part of the student, however the obstacles posed by the above put a lot of guys 'n gals off and act to the detriment of GA. In the end the treatment metered out to Phoenix et al means we all lose out.
Don't delete the thread dude, after all, it just reflects life, lots of people with lots of differing opinions, not all of which will see eye to eye!
I can't think of a school that would send someone off on their 1st solo navex and then make it QXC, but it doesn't mean to say it doesn't happen. There are a lot of really appalling schools out there, whatever WWW may say and let’s face it, he’s not exactly the customer is he!
F'instance, I was sent off on a QXC in marginal weather, vis. at 1st destination was under 8km, I think the minimum is 10km, correct me if I'm wrong. Upon arrival at the 1st destination, it started to pee with rain, so I phoned the club, who asked me to return, saying the weather at the departure was acceptable. Note the word return, not deviate. Returning to my departure airfield, I strayed into IMC, got lost and eventually landed with a hoooge CB less than 2 miles away from the end of the runway and a crosswind of 20 knots (I was flying a 152). Oh dear!
I completed by QXC a week later, but to be honest, the whole experience scared the crap out of me and I gave up flying shortly afterwards. After a 3-year break I'm now 2 hours away from skills test.
This particular club made me fly with no less than 8 instructors, some of highly dubious proficiency and a couple with inter-personal skills of the Adams family! They didn’t bother with ground school, or proper briefs and definitely were of ‘light the fires and kick the tyres’ mentality, which may be a jolly wheeze, but is not exactly beneficial to your budding PPL!
I have had problems with the customer care side of the club I currently fly with and have posted a couple of threads about this, after a 'debate' with the club, these have been resolved and it's now a friendly and good place to fly.
I am sure the Phoenix has a bad time of it and some of what he says may be exaggerated or not, who am I judge. The point is the general standard of instruction and quality of a/c, school facilities and customer care of GA schools in this country is appalling. I know there are good schools and good instructors, but they are the exception, not the norm IMHO.
Flying is expensive and takes commitment and determination on the part of the student, however the obstacles posed by the above put a lot of guys 'n gals off and act to the detriment of GA. In the end the treatment metered out to Phoenix et al means we all lose out.
Last edited by VFR800; 10th Oct 2003 at 19:54.
I remember way back when a fresh faced 17yr old Welshman was dispatched on his QXC in a spamcan. Leg one no problem, leg two from Halfpenny Green to Shobdon - tootling inbound to Shobdon - must be within 20 miles now... where is it? Call them up with the usual speel including what I had for breakfast and sock colouration. Just as they reply my radio goes dead and I enter a ruddy great shower of rain. The knackered plexiglass windscreen becomes totally opaque as its
a) Old and knackered
b) Smeared in a summers worth of oil and bugs
So brave little Welshman ends up doing a rate one turn for a minute and then starts a small flapping exercise. Pounding the jack leads got the radio back and it turned out Shobdon was hiding just behind the rain shower.
I felt right chuffed when I got home and there were many tales of derring do that night. QXC should be a confidence builder. Therefore it needs to be a slight challenge.
I still disagree about radio nav. On the one hand if you are using it properly having been properly trained to do it then you are not developing your map nav skills. And on the other if you are attempting to use it following a cursory introduction then you are likely to mess it up and get yourself in trouble. I have seen it happen hundreds of times before. I've rarely seen two club aircraft with the same Nav fit and this often causes great difficulty even to students who were quite proficient the other day in another aircraft.
Odd new nav kit still catches me out and I really should know better by now.
Fly your heading accurately and be observant - you won't go far wrong.
WWW
a) Old and knackered
b) Smeared in a summers worth of oil and bugs
So brave little Welshman ends up doing a rate one turn for a minute and then starts a small flapping exercise. Pounding the jack leads got the radio back and it turned out Shobdon was hiding just behind the rain shower.
I felt right chuffed when I got home and there were many tales of derring do that night. QXC should be a confidence builder. Therefore it needs to be a slight challenge.
I still disagree about radio nav. On the one hand if you are using it properly having been properly trained to do it then you are not developing your map nav skills. And on the other if you are attempting to use it following a cursory introduction then you are likely to mess it up and get yourself in trouble. I have seen it happen hundreds of times before. I've rarely seen two club aircraft with the same Nav fit and this often causes great difficulty even to students who were quite proficient the other day in another aircraft.
Odd new nav kit still catches me out and I really should know better by now.
Fly your heading accurately and be observant - you won't go far wrong.
WWW
I'm not saying I've just used Nav Aids, because I haven't. I've been taught to look out the window, see what is around, and then try work it out on the chart.
I had to fly most of my duel's using just the chart anyway to prove that I could.
Hey, I've even got in the aeroplane, set up a VOR and ADF, only for the instructor to get in 10 minutes later and "unset them" again, such that I couldn't use them.
Looking at it another way, if they don't teach you how to use them before your QXC, just when would they?
Again it comes down to different students and different schools, but if we are realisitic, how many people will pay duel rates for instruction once they've got their license?
I'm happy that I can draw a line between A --> B and fly it, without Radio Nav, however I'm new to this so as WB hinted, I'm not sure I'd want to go fly in Wales or Scotland etc. Need a good few more hours under my belt for that one. How many schools do teach you how to fly in Wales or Scotland? (except the obvious ones).
I know what I'm happy to do, and not happy to do. As time goes on, and I gain experience, hopefully I'll gain more confidence in myself, and spread those wings so to speak.
I had to fly most of my duel's using just the chart anyway to prove that I could.
Hey, I've even got in the aeroplane, set up a VOR and ADF, only for the instructor to get in 10 minutes later and "unset them" again, such that I couldn't use them.
Looking at it another way, if they don't teach you how to use them before your QXC, just when would they?
Again it comes down to different students and different schools, but if we are realisitic, how many people will pay duel rates for instruction once they've got their license?
I'm happy that I can draw a line between A --> B and fly it, without Radio Nav, however I'm new to this so as WB hinted, I'm not sure I'd want to go fly in Wales or Scotland etc. Need a good few more hours under my belt for that one. How many schools do teach you how to fly in Wales or Scotland? (except the obvious ones).
I know what I'm happy to do, and not happy to do. As time goes on, and I gain experience, hopefully I'll gain more confidence in myself, and spread those wings so to speak.
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The last bit of this debate comes down to whether what is taught in the PPL is enough to enable you to fly to your licence privileges.
Objectively the answer has to be NO (what's the legal minimum horizontal visibility, and can it be navigated visually, by a 50-hour-total-time PPL?)
Visual navigation is easy once you can fly the plane almost subconsciously, but that takes far more than 50 hours on type, perhaps 300 hours for the average pilot and that's assuming reasonably recent currency too. Until then, the workload is high enough to make the flight hard work rather than enjoyable. But most pilots with many hours have long forgotten what it is like, hence statements like "you can fly anywhere with purely map reading" (which is technically correct of course).
This is why I think radio navigation should be taught properly within the PPL. This is controversial but nowhere near as controversial (VOR tracking and VOR/VOR position fix are in the syllabus) as a mere mention of GPS.
The trouble is that whenever anyone suggests teaching ANYTHING other than visual navigation, fifty people will weigh in with the old argument that doing so will detract from visual nav skills.....
If you want to get people jumping around, go into a room full of grey-haired PPL instructors and mention "GPS". It is like the abolition of the closed shop.
In the end all this is almost irrelevant, because some 90-95% of fresh PPLs vote with their feet and chuck it all in pretty quickly, and those who fly decent journeys almost without exception use GPS and VOR/DME and don't spent much time posting in this forum
Objectively the answer has to be NO (what's the legal minimum horizontal visibility, and can it be navigated visually, by a 50-hour-total-time PPL?)
Visual navigation is easy once you can fly the plane almost subconsciously, but that takes far more than 50 hours on type, perhaps 300 hours for the average pilot and that's assuming reasonably recent currency too. Until then, the workload is high enough to make the flight hard work rather than enjoyable. But most pilots with many hours have long forgotten what it is like, hence statements like "you can fly anywhere with purely map reading" (which is technically correct of course).
This is why I think radio navigation should be taught properly within the PPL. This is controversial but nowhere near as controversial (VOR tracking and VOR/VOR position fix are in the syllabus) as a mere mention of GPS.
The trouble is that whenever anyone suggests teaching ANYTHING other than visual navigation, fifty people will weigh in with the old argument that doing so will detract from visual nav skills.....
If you want to get people jumping around, go into a room full of grey-haired PPL instructors and mention "GPS". It is like the abolition of the closed shop.
In the end all this is almost irrelevant, because some 90-95% of fresh PPLs vote with their feet and chuck it all in pretty quickly, and those who fly decent journeys almost without exception use GPS and VOR/DME and don't spent much time posting in this forum
And go charging through controlled airspace with their noses firmly glued to a tiny GPS screen usually relaying data from a long out of date database.
Radio Nav is in the PPL syllabus and its sensible for it to be there.
I just personally won't see it taught until Bloggs has mastered map nav. What people do after their training is up to them - I trust them to be professional about their flying and their abilities.
Well, most of them.
Cheers
WWW
Radio Nav is in the PPL syllabus and its sensible for it to be there.
I just personally won't see it taught until Bloggs has mastered map nav. What people do after their training is up to them - I trust them to be professional about their flying and their abilities.
Well, most of them.
Cheers
WWW