A Plea for Common Sense and Decency
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If BA's computer can allocate the window seat with no window, next to the smelly and noisy toilet to my cheap ticket surely it could allocate adjacent seats to two tickets sold together.
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Boss Raptor
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The answer...seats allocated on first come first served basis at the check-in, if like myself the passenger wants a window or aisle seat then they should arrive early at opening of check-in...it is when passengers do make this effort and discover all the good seats have gone the problem escalates!
*****
This will not help much either for long haul transfers!
BA flights from Bombay for eg leave around 2130 the previous night GMT (and check in 4 hours earlier) and a lot of pax are for the early morning departures to US points the next day at Heathrow! Even if the pax cannot pre book, I do not think they would like to be allocated seates at the gate at LHR as this will only create un necessary delays and certain missed connections if flights are running late (or sitting in the tarmac at Heathrow waiting for a gate!).As a result many of the good seats will be taken even as early as the day before due to through check in.
Overall, I feel that pre allocating a certain amount of seats (and BAs system is very fair in that respect in that as Bealine mentions the really low yield pax are not alowed to block the seats) will help in people booking early to have a reasonable choice of seats.
I guess for BA, the worst hit will be the transatlantic and to a limited extent the intra european flights with regard to through check in pax getting the best seats , but the only alternative to that is pre book (and with seat maps for BA avaialble at all the CRS systems with the agents, it is not that difficult either!)
*****
The answer...seats allocated on first come first served basis at the check-in, if like myself the passenger wants a window or aisle seat then they should arrive early at opening of check-in...it is when passengers do make this effort and discover all the good seats have gone the problem escalates!
*****
This will not help much either for long haul transfers!
BA flights from Bombay for eg leave around 2130 the previous night GMT (and check in 4 hours earlier) and a lot of pax are for the early morning departures to US points the next day at Heathrow! Even if the pax cannot pre book, I do not think they would like to be allocated seates at the gate at LHR as this will only create un necessary delays and certain missed connections if flights are running late (or sitting in the tarmac at Heathrow waiting for a gate!).As a result many of the good seats will be taken even as early as the day before due to through check in.
Overall, I feel that pre allocating a certain amount of seats (and BAs system is very fair in that respect in that as Bealine mentions the really low yield pax are not alowed to block the seats) will help in people booking early to have a reasonable choice of seats.
I guess for BA, the worst hit will be the transatlantic and to a limited extent the intra european flights with regard to through check in pax getting the best seats , but the only alternative to that is pre book (and with seat maps for BA avaialble at all the CRS systems with the agents, it is not that difficult either!)
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BruPax - Firstly, an apology to you and Mrs BruPax for my previous response. It was not my desire, or intention, to sound rude and, looking back at my reply, it does seem that way!
In the situation you describe, there is no problem......what you're doing, in effect, is treating yourselves as two single people for the duration of the flight. What does cause a problem however, is deliberately taking a window and aisle with the intention of sitting together if someone takes the middle seat! It is this that causes the separation of couples!
Sharjah Night Shift wrote
Yes indeed - the system will always default to giving two people seats together, providing they're available. What is happening, however, is that pax are then selecting the seat map and deliberately choosing the window and aisle combinations. (On 747-400 flights I have just been made aware, couples are now booking the two aisle seats in the centre four-seat section to try to have the row to themselves!)
In the situation you describe, there is no problem......what you're doing, in effect, is treating yourselves as two single people for the duration of the flight. What does cause a problem however, is deliberately taking a window and aisle with the intention of sitting together if someone takes the middle seat! It is this that causes the separation of couples!
Sharjah Night Shift wrote
If BA's computer can allocate the window seat with no window, next to the smelly and noisy toilet to my cheap ticket surely it could allocate adjacent seats to two tickets sold together.
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On long haul flights with connections the seats for all the flights are almost invariably allocated at the beginning/check-in of the first sector...in my experience anyway...
Unless your choice of carriers is such a mix and so seperate that you have to re-check in as no interline is available...which has to be your choice...
Unless your choice of carriers is such a mix and so seperate that you have to re-check in as no interline is available...which has to be your choice...
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Can I confess to being someone who has tried this trick in the past (although not on BA) - 4 time to be precise - twice we had a row to ourselves, once we allowed the middle-seater to have the window, and once we were 're-seated' at check-in. This thread has made me think again. I'd always assumed that the worst case scenario was that we'd offer someone either the window or aisle. I hadn't thought about the possibility of splitting people up - thanks Bealine.
I used to have very little sympathy for people who were allocated middle seats - I always assumed they'd turned up late and got what they deserved. Again, a few good arguments here as to why that isn't always the case (although it often is!).
Bealine, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the current BA on-line check-in/reservation facility allow ANYBODY to pre-book seats, regardless of how or where they bought their ticket? I've pre-booked seats on-line before, weeks before travel on very cheap apex tickets which were bought via travel agents, other on-line agencies and even on Airmiles freebies. You simply have to type in the six letter booking ref. and you're away. This facility even allows me to get a seat up from in row one (domestic MAN-LHR) which, although in a single class cabin, would normall be reserved for 'Gold Card types'. Although I now have SOME sympathy for people who get split up, I can't help thinking that that's the price they pay for being less aware of the situation than I am.
I agree that the system shouldn't allow me to book seats A and C for a couple, but as long as it does, people will do this - you can't blame people for trying. Perhaps what is needed is a simple logic change in the programming, not the threat of complete withdrawls of pre-allocated seating. Don't tell the wife, but I now actually sometimes book seperated seats on different rows (1A and 36F, for example) on purpose, particularly on overnight long-hauls. I'm less likely to get nagged and moaned at all night by a stranger than by the wife (and it might be a rather good-looking stranger as well
). When she complains to me, I always blame the 'crappy seating systems the airlines use'. I wouldn't want to lose this facility, so please keep on-line pre-allocation available.
Globaliser, I believe it was some of the earlier MD-11's which had this 3-4-2 arrangement. I always thought this was an excellent idea - not sure why it didn't catch on. Perhaps the cabin crew on the 'heavy' side of the aircraft got fed up with doing more work
) Now we have a child, I usually choose the aircraft (and thus airline) we fly with on seating arrangements. When travelling as a couple 2-5-2 or 2-4-2 is preferable, when with child 3-3-3 or 3-4-3.
I used to have very little sympathy for people who were allocated middle seats - I always assumed they'd turned up late and got what they deserved. Again, a few good arguments here as to why that isn't always the case (although it often is!).
Bealine, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the current BA on-line check-in/reservation facility allow ANYBODY to pre-book seats, regardless of how or where they bought their ticket? I've pre-booked seats on-line before, weeks before travel on very cheap apex tickets which were bought via travel agents, other on-line agencies and even on Airmiles freebies. You simply have to type in the six letter booking ref. and you're away. This facility even allows me to get a seat up from in row one (domestic MAN-LHR) which, although in a single class cabin, would normall be reserved for 'Gold Card types'. Although I now have SOME sympathy for people who get split up, I can't help thinking that that's the price they pay for being less aware of the situation than I am.
I agree that the system shouldn't allow me to book seats A and C for a couple, but as long as it does, people will do this - you can't blame people for trying. Perhaps what is needed is a simple logic change in the programming, not the threat of complete withdrawls of pre-allocated seating. Don't tell the wife, but I now actually sometimes book seperated seats on different rows (1A and 36F, for example) on purpose, particularly on overnight long-hauls. I'm less likely to get nagged and moaned at all night by a stranger than by the wife (and it might be a rather good-looking stranger as well
). When she complains to me, I always blame the 'crappy seating systems the airlines use'. I wouldn't want to lose this facility, so please keep on-line pre-allocation available.Globaliser, I believe it was some of the earlier MD-11's which had this 3-4-2 arrangement. I always thought this was an excellent idea - not sure why it didn't catch on. Perhaps the cabin crew on the 'heavy' side of the aircraft got fed up with doing more work
) Now we have a child, I usually choose the aircraft (and thus airline) we fly with on seating arrangements. When travelling as a couple 2-5-2 or 2-4-2 is preferable, when with child 3-3-3 or 3-4-3.
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I believe KLM still has the 2-4-3 seating arrangement on some of its aircraft - but it makes life more difficult as the aisles cannot precisely match the location of the galleys.
This issue is not confined to BA. Earlier this year I flew HKG-JFK on a full CX flight in J class - a 17 hour journey - and the cabin crew asked me to swap my aisle seat, which I had pre-booked two weeks earlier, for a window seat so that a couple could sit together. As I am fairly weak-bladdered and the idea of being trapped at the window for 17 hours had zero appeal, I refused. I imagine the couple had turned up at the airport assuming that as business class passengers, they did not need to worry about their seating allocations. The result was that I had a very pissed off Hong Kong Chinese gentlemen sitting next to me for 17 hours, but c'est la vie!
As for couples reserving both aisles of a centre block of a 747 in the hope of gaining four seats to share, these people need their head examining. With so much of the world's airline fleet either downsized or sitting in the Arizona desert, I haven't been on a flight on any airline that was less than 90% full for months. I therefore make no assumption that there will be any free seats when I travel - and I'm usually right!
This issue is not confined to BA. Earlier this year I flew HKG-JFK on a full CX flight in J class - a 17 hour journey - and the cabin crew asked me to swap my aisle seat, which I had pre-booked two weeks earlier, for a window seat so that a couple could sit together. As I am fairly weak-bladdered and the idea of being trapped at the window for 17 hours had zero appeal, I refused. I imagine the couple had turned up at the airport assuming that as business class passengers, they did not need to worry about their seating allocations. The result was that I had a very pissed off Hong Kong Chinese gentlemen sitting next to me for 17 hours, but c'est la vie!
As for couples reserving both aisles of a centre block of a 747 in the hope of gaining four seats to share, these people need their head examining. With so much of the world's airline fleet either downsized or sitting in the Arizona desert, I haven't been on a flight on any airline that was less than 90% full for months. I therefore make no assumption that there will be any free seats when I travel - and I'm usually right!
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Software solution
I am certainly with the software solution. Force Internet checkin seating of two people (only) under one booking code to be together, if, and only if, they want to choose the same side of the plane on the same row number. The "my wife prefers an aisle while I prefer a window" is easily solved that way, as they can do so, but not on the same side in the same row, avoiding the "conversation across the middle PAX" issue.
The aisle and window combination would of course still be available by phone or at physical check-in.
I don't know whether Sy***** supports your software as well as the hardware, but either they or the software vendor should be able to quote you for this easy rule.
The most common inconvenience I currently face is not this one. It is "no shows" with advance seat reservations taking all the aisles or windows available, leaving only middle seats available, until you are on board and find the adjacent seats empty. I suppose software can't really solve this. I personally cause some no-shows, as our agency (AMEX) often books crossed return tickets for us, as they can be cheaper than a single ticket, but cause no-shows for the coupons we throw in the bin.
Momo
The aisle and window combination would of course still be available by phone or at physical check-in.
I don't know whether Sy***** supports your software as well as the hardware, but either they or the software vendor should be able to quote you for this easy rule.
The most common inconvenience I currently face is not this one. It is "no shows" with advance seat reservations taking all the aisles or windows available, leaving only middle seats available, until you are on board and find the adjacent seats empty. I suppose software can't really solve this. I personally cause some no-shows, as our agency (AMEX) often books crossed return tickets for us, as they can be cheaper than a single ticket, but cause no-shows for the coupons we throw in the bin.
Momo
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Momo, quite right about "no shows" We've told our management time and time again that airlines need to simplify the fare structures - sensible fares, sensible fare differences between classes and a straightforward £100 administration fee for a no show. (Perhaps we should also make a charge for an empty seat between a travelling couple!)
Some of our country's so-called pop "superstars" manage to have a return Concorde booking for every day of the week - knowing full well they may not even travel at all! The trouble is, we carry out all the reservations work for them, and they end up getting 100% refund on an unused ticket! Crazy!
The trouble is, no airline wants to be the first to "deviate from the norm"
Some of our country's so-called pop "superstars" manage to have a return Concorde booking for every day of the week - knowing full well they may not even travel at all! The trouble is, we carry out all the reservations work for them, and they end up getting 100% refund on an unused ticket! Crazy!
The trouble is, no airline wants to be the first to "deviate from the norm"
Paxing All Over The World
This is a reply about a point raised several days ago ... that of having seats 'blocked' for you by the check-in agent.
I was doing MUC ~ FRA ~ DTW (Munich to Detroit) return a couple of years ago with LH. It was a new 'thin' route and they had the A340 on it, I was in 'Y', I was a Silver card then.
The outbound was daylight, naturally and I took a window as I prefer. For the return, they said they even though the flight was not busy, they could not upgrade me. They offerred to put me in a window seat and block the centre section of the same row. The 340 in Y normally has 2-4-2 (if memory serves), so I accepted.
The flight was indeed very empty (the route bing only about two weeks old) so I had two seats by the window and the centre block empty and ready for me.
A backpacker had spotted his chance ... as we climbed out, before the seat belt signs went off, he slipped his belt and took up one of the block of four, snapping the belt in place.
As soon as the belt sign went out - he flipped up all the arm rests, wrapped himself in the four blankets and secured two belts around himself - over the blankets as per request. He then spent a very comfortable night.
I was doing MUC ~ FRA ~ DTW (Munich to Detroit) return a couple of years ago with LH. It was a new 'thin' route and they had the A340 on it, I was in 'Y', I was a Silver card then.
The outbound was daylight, naturally and I took a window as I prefer. For the return, they said they even though the flight was not busy, they could not upgrade me. They offerred to put me in a window seat and block the centre section of the same row. The 340 in Y normally has 2-4-2 (if memory serves), so I accepted.
The flight was indeed very empty (the route bing only about two weeks old) so I had two seats by the window and the centre block empty and ready for me.
A backpacker had spotted his chance ... as we climbed out, before the seat belt signs went off, he slipped his belt and took up one of the block of four, snapping the belt in place.
As soon as the belt sign went out - he flipped up all the arm rests, wrapped himself in the four blankets and secured two belts around himself - over the blankets as per request. He then spent a very comfortable night.
Shining Example, apparently...
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Ah, the joys of aviation...
The problem with the low-cost airlines is that you miss all this fun. But you do get boarding by number, the new Sport of Gentlemen...
And who wouldn't want to play? Gathering in a pack by checkin, eagerly waiting for your number, scorning the fools who try to board out of turn. Joining the melee on the airbridge, advancing past the weaker jackals. Squeezing onto the acft, climbing over the aisle-loiterers with abandon. Only then, planting your bosom on that window seat at the rear, can you admire your newfound bruises and reminisce on another sporting achievement.
Allocated seating? No thanks.
The problem with the low-cost airlines is that you miss all this fun. But you do get boarding by number, the new Sport of Gentlemen...
And who wouldn't want to play? Gathering in a pack by checkin, eagerly waiting for your number, scorning the fools who try to board out of turn. Joining the melee on the airbridge, advancing past the weaker jackals. Squeezing onto the acft, climbing over the aisle-loiterers with abandon. Only then, planting your bosom on that window seat at the rear, can you admire your newfound bruises and reminisce on another sporting achievement.
Allocated seating? No thanks.
Travelling by charter airline recently (Excel to Egypt) I was offered the facility of paying £16 to pre reserve seats. As it was a family holiday with 2 young children somewhat against my better judgement I paid up in advance to allow us all to sit in a line (767 so 3 plus 1 across aisle). At check-in I was then somewhat annoyed to find we were allocated in 3 adjacent rows!! The small print says the £16 only guarantees seats "together", a definition which is left to the discretion of the check in staff. After some discussion with staff we were allocated 2 x 2 seats together and I wasted £16.
Is this simply a novel way to get more cash from pax?
Is this simply a novel way to get more cash from pax?
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On the face of it, £16 doesn't seem a bad idea. It pays towards to cost of some lonely soul toiling through the night shift allocating seats.........assuming that's what happens.
However, from your experience, it sounds like the word "together" had a very lose definition.........after all, one family all being on the same aircraft could be construed as "together" and I feel someone like "Which" should get themselves involved in order to ensure the word "together" gets a proper definition.
In this "holiday" context, I would take it to mean either the 3 + 1 seating you describe, or 2 + 2 (adjacent aisles) - certainly all the family in easy communicating distance! Certainly if I spoke to one of our customers on the phone and he/she requested "together" seating, that is exactly what I would visualise.
Hope you enjoyed your holiday though!
However, from your experience, it sounds like the word "together" had a very lose definition.........after all, one family all being on the same aircraft could be construed as "together" and I feel someone like "Which" should get themselves involved in order to ensure the word "together" gets a proper definition.
In this "holiday" context, I would take it to mean either the 3 + 1 seating you describe, or 2 + 2 (adjacent aisles) - certainly all the family in easy communicating distance! Certainly if I spoke to one of our customers on the phone and he/she requested "together" seating, that is exactly what I would visualise.
Hope you enjoyed your holiday though!
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£16 is just another example of how the poor consumers in rip off Britain are being nickle and dimed to death. You pay a premium for your 087x phone call to give the company business, you pay a booking fee to a company which has as its major business activity booking tickets and so such fees should be part of the fixed costs and not an additional line item on the invoice, you pay a surcharge on your credit card to give the company business, and now you pay in advance for a service which isn't even guaranteed, and which should be expected to be provided for a family travelling together - just because people should be nice to each other. Yeh I know it's a tough market out there and companies need to make money, but these extra charges leave a nasty taste in the mouth, and frankly if things are that bad then some need to go out of business to give a decent profit to the survivors.
As for the BA website and getting a seat assigned in advance. This service on the BA website is about the only thing that positively differentiates BA from it's competitors if you are one of the economy class scum er, sorry 'Low Yield Pax' It would be a shame to see this feature removed from those low yield pax who may fly 100k miles per year, but never make it to executive club silver tier. A hearty slap on the back for those people who use it to their advantage and try to make what has become a steadily more uncomfortable long haul experience a bit more bearable.
As for the BA website and getting a seat assigned in advance. This service on the BA website is about the only thing that positively differentiates BA from it's competitors if you are one of the economy class scum er, sorry 'Low Yield Pax'
It would be a shame to see this feature removed from those low yield pax who may fly 100k miles per year, but never make it to executive club silver tier. A hearty slap on the back for those people who use it to their advantage and try to make what has become a steadily more uncomfortable long haul experience a bit more bearable.
Last edited by slim_slag; 6th Nov 2002 at 21:31.
Thanks for the replies to my post. I agree that £16 is not much in the overall budget of a holiday however I still believe that it is a bit much for a service that by simply following the good practice of turning up in good time and speaking politely to the staff I would get anyway.
I was mostly annoyed at the way the service was pressured onto my wife by our travel agent who stated that if we didn’t pay we could “find ourselves sat separately anywhere around the aircraft”. Despite my protestations Mrs 814 decided that we needed the reassurance of this service so we paid up.
On a related item I am aware that many charter passengers frequently turn up late for check-in. If they have pre booked seats then I would expect that this will become even more of a problem in the future.
Finally I had an excellent holiday thank you. The diving in Sharm El Sheikh was as good as any I’ve seen and Mrs 814 and the kids enjoyed the hotel and resort too.
I was mostly annoyed at the way the service was pressured onto my wife by our travel agent who stated that if we didn’t pay we could “find ourselves sat separately anywhere around the aircraft”. Despite my protestations Mrs 814 decided that we needed the reassurance of this service so we paid up.
On a related item I am aware that many charter passengers frequently turn up late for check-in. If they have pre booked seats then I would expect that this will become even more of a problem in the future.
Finally I had an excellent holiday thank you. The diving in Sharm El Sheikh was as good as any I’ve seen and Mrs 814 and the kids enjoyed the hotel and resort too.
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There are still quite a few airlines who do allow advance reservation of specific seats many upto 3 months in advance even for economy class. The problem is that most people are not aware of this.
In my part of the world, the internet booking rage hasnt yet caught on and most of the bookings are still through the travel agents who use one or other of the Computer Reservation Systems to make the bookings. A lot of airlines do give the seat map facilty where the seat map along with the available seats show up and agents can confirm the seats instantly. While a few airlines like Singapore Airlines restrict this facilty to upper class passengers, there are many airlines including many of the american carriers, LH etc which allow for even very low economy fares. During my recent trip from Trivandrum (India) to Heathrow on Qatar Airways via Doha, I was able to resere choice of the window seats avaialble on both sectors about two weeks back through the travel agent and was indeed issued with a boarding pass for the two sectors with the seats I had pre reserved on check in at Trivandrum. I was travelling on a dirt cheap economy fare.
Unfortunately most passengers and quite a lot of travel agents are not aware of the same.Whichever airline you are travelling it pays to check whether the facilty is avaialbe and in a lot of cases you will be able to succesfully prebook without extra charge.
Also a number of airlines allow you to check your reservation directly against an airline website on input of ther airline reservation record locator (www.checkmytrip.com -for LH/AF and other airlines using Amadeus) and you will be able to see the entire details of your itinerary plus many of the seat maps also.
Cheers
RSO
In my part of the world, the internet booking rage hasnt yet caught on and most of the bookings are still through the travel agents who use one or other of the Computer Reservation Systems to make the bookings. A lot of airlines do give the seat map facilty where the seat map along with the available seats show up and agents can confirm the seats instantly. While a few airlines like Singapore Airlines restrict this facilty to upper class passengers, there are many airlines including many of the american carriers, LH etc which allow for even very low economy fares. During my recent trip from Trivandrum (India) to Heathrow on Qatar Airways via Doha, I was able to resere choice of the window seats avaialble on both sectors about two weeks back through the travel agent and was indeed issued with a boarding pass for the two sectors with the seats I had pre reserved on check in at Trivandrum. I was travelling on a dirt cheap economy fare.
Unfortunately most passengers and quite a lot of travel agents are not aware of the same.Whichever airline you are travelling it pays to check whether the facilty is avaialbe and in a lot of cases you will be able to succesfully prebook without extra charge.
Also a number of airlines allow you to check your reservation directly against an airline website on input of ther airline reservation record locator (www.checkmytrip.com -for LH/AF and other airlines using Amadeus) and you will be able to see the entire details of your itinerary plus many of the seat maps also.
Cheers
RSO
