BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III
Chuchinchow,
er, I do not know why you think us brilliant pundits are all magnates.
Are you the HR bloke that BA have just removed? You sound somewhat unhappy.
I've said more than once that I am currently unemployed - I'm just one of the 5 million unemployed that G brown did not care about. (Too early to assess the new bunch of crooks in Parliament for their attitude to the unemployed).
Diplome has never claimed magnate-ship either.
I happily pontificate because I have worked in aviation, (and in real businesses outside the inward looking world of aviation), and because I am arrogant enough to value my own opinion, and to believe that on some parts of this dispute I both have a modest inside track, and know what I am talking about, as well as valuing the opinion of other posters here.
I also like to hear the opposite point of view.
er, I do not know why you think us brilliant pundits are all magnates.
Are you the HR bloke that BA have just removed? You sound somewhat unhappy.
I've said more than once that I am currently unemployed - I'm just one of the 5 million unemployed that G brown did not care about. (Too early to assess the new bunch of crooks in Parliament for their attitude to the unemployed).
Diplome has never claimed magnate-ship either.
I happily pontificate because I have worked in aviation, (and in real businesses outside the inward looking world of aviation), and because I am arrogant enough to value my own opinion, and to believe that on some parts of this dispute I both have a modest inside track, and know what I am talking about, as well as valuing the opinion of other posters here.
I also like to hear the opposite point of view.
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Interesting comment from MFCREW over on the CC thread:
If it's true then it appears that BA have decided it is no longer necessary to keep up the pretense. Up until now BA has continued to entertain Unite at ACAS talks to keep up the appearance of being the good guy and taking every opportunity to negotiate even though it knew it could never actually settle until BASSA's current leadership had been crushed (TW never realised he was being set-up by both sides) - otherwise BASSA would just keep kicking-up again and again.
Now BA sees no merit in continuing to appear to be wearing the white hat and being the professionally reasonable and extremely tolerant party in the face of blatant childishness and abuse.
Could be signalling the start of no more Mr. Nice Guy - at long last!
British Airways declined to attend the ACAS talks and have cancelled all future meetings.
Now BA sees no merit in continuing to appear to be wearing the white hat and being the professionally reasonable and extremely tolerant party in the face of blatant childishness and abuse.
Could be signalling the start of no more Mr. Nice Guy - at long last!
Last edited by AV Flyer; 20th Dec 2010 at 17:32.
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I wonder how the armchair pundits on this thread - clearly all considering themselves to be very important magnates of commerce, industry and finance in their own right - who appear to have much free time to pontificate on how British Airways should or should not manage its business, would feel if their enterprises and concerns were subjected to the same public criticism and unsolicited advice?
More to the point, could any of them do better than the current British Airways' board of directors?
More to the point, could any of them do better than the current British Airways' board of directors?
As to #2, without undertaking due diligence, I could not say.
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Notlangley
No need to apologise! I am always happy to be corrected if I say something not correct. However the figure of 10,800 as membership of BASSA was taken at the end of November 2009, so it may (or indeed may not) include those that left under VR terms in that month. The BASSA on-site counter gave the impression of being an automatic update, amended almost daily, but hearing from ex-members who still get mailings, one wonders just how "automatic it was. I wonder just how the ERS will actually verify the membership.
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More dates, numbers and percentages
You have wetted my appetite and so I have dug back into November 2009 and have put into tabular form the results of two votes to strike. _The first was evidently conducted by BASSA, and this is the one that was declared invalid on 17 December 2009._ It is interesting to see that when the second vote was taken the "Yes" votes shrank by 2000 and the "No" votes increased by 1000.
a) invalid vote (conducted by UNITE?) 16 November - 14 December 2009
_____________________Total__Yes____No___Spoiled__Not returned
Number of ballot papers_______ 9514 ___770____2_
Percentages__________100%_-_74.0%__6.0%__0.01%___20.0%
b) valid vote (conducted by the Electoral Reform Service) that ended 22 February 2010
_____________________Total__Yes____No___Spoiled__Not returned
Number of ballot papers_11691_ 7482 __1789___11______2409
Percentages__________100%_-_64.0%_15.3%__0.1%___20.6%
Reference paragraph number 4 _______link
a) invalid vote (conducted by UNITE?) 16 November - 14 December 2009
_____________________Total__Yes____No___Spoiled__Not returned
Number of ballot papers_______ 9514 ___770____2_
Percentages__________100%_-_74.0%__6.0%__0.01%___20.0%
b) valid vote (conducted by the Electoral Reform Service) that ended 22 February 2010
_____________________Total__Yes____No___Spoiled__Not returned
Number of ballot papers_11691_ 7482 __1789___11______2409
Percentages__________100%_-_64.0%_15.3%__0.1%___20.6%
Reference paragraph number 4 _______link
Last edited by notlangley; 21st Dec 2010 at 06:05. Reason: BASSA changed to Unite
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If it's true then it appears that BA have decided it is no longer necessary to keep up the pretense. Up until now BA has continued to entertain Unite at ACAS talks to keep up the appearance of being the good guy and taking every opportunity to negotiate even though it knew it could never actually settle until BASSA's current leadership had been crushed (TW never realised he was being set-up by both sides) - otherwise BASSA would just keep kicking-up again and again.
Now BA sees no merit in continuing to appear to be wearing the white hat and being the professionally reasonable and extremely tolerant party in the face of blatant childishness and abuse.
Could be signalling the start of no more Mr. Nice Guy - at long last!
Now BA sees no merit in continuing to appear to be wearing the white hat and being the professionally reasonable and extremely tolerant party in the face of blatant childishness and abuse.
Could be signalling the start of no more Mr. Nice Guy - at long last!
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Magnets - information for the use of :
Just as a point of information, I always find that it is far more satisfactory to own a company, rather than simply being a member of a board, main or otherwise. Removes all requirements for such outlandish practices as due diligence and the need to keep compliant accountants in train.
Similarly, it is also by far the more sensible course to keep the company outside of public ownership, simplifies decision making, particularly in areas of finance and taxation. Allows for clean disposal of any employees at any level who start to show tendencies of entitlement.
I provide this information, purely for the guidance of any that feel overwhelmed with the responsibilities that can occur in life and, in the excessive time and effort required in considering and continually advising the world at large of their possibly dubious grandour.
Similarly, it is also by far the more sensible course to keep the company outside of public ownership, simplifies decision making, particularly in areas of finance and taxation. Allows for clean disposal of any employees at any level who start to show tendencies of entitlement.
I provide this information, purely for the guidance of any that feel overwhelmed with the responsibilities that can occur in life and, in the excessive time and effort required in considering and continually advising the world at large of their possibly dubious grandour.
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As to the issue of any forum member's curriculum vitae is it really of interest except for how it applies to this particular dispute?
I find Litebulbs insight into the Union side of the issue of great benefit to the forum but am not sure that my personal business interests could offer much insight except how it pertains to my travel choices.
..and to be honest I consider it a bit in poor taste. One of the most wonderful aspects of forums such as this is that each individual is judged on their level of discourse, knowledge and ability to engage in an exchange of ideas and opinions. Titles and bank accounts have little to no relevance.
The comments regarding numbers in past balloting is interesting. It will be intruiging to see what the next one brings. A recent poster on the Cabin Crew thread included posts from another Cabin Crew forum wherein individuals were urging people to rejoin BASSA (since deleted by moderators) That made me wonder if the loss of members is significant enough that it is being felt by the union.
One thing is certain, I don't imagine we'll be seeing bouncy castles at BASSA strike headquarters in January or February and the open topped bus should be stocked with lots of blankets.
notlangley: Do you have the numbers for the vote on the acceptance of the offer? I recall the participation numbers were quite low. It would be interesting to add those to your very helpful comparison.
I find Litebulbs insight into the Union side of the issue of great benefit to the forum but am not sure that my personal business interests could offer much insight except how it pertains to my travel choices.
..and to be honest I consider it a bit in poor taste. One of the most wonderful aspects of forums such as this is that each individual is judged on their level of discourse, knowledge and ability to engage in an exchange of ideas and opinions. Titles and bank accounts have little to no relevance.
The comments regarding numbers in past balloting is interesting. It will be intruiging to see what the next one brings. A recent poster on the Cabin Crew thread included posts from another Cabin Crew forum wherein individuals were urging people to rejoin BASSA (since deleted by moderators) That made me wonder if the loss of members is significant enough that it is being felt by the union.
One thing is certain, I don't imagine we'll be seeing bouncy castles at BASSA strike headquarters in January or February and the open topped bus should be stocked with lots of blankets.
notlangley: Do you have the numbers for the vote on the acceptance of the offer? I recall the participation numbers were quite low. It would be interesting to add those to your very helpful comparison.
Last edited by Diplome; 21st Dec 2010 at 03:08. Reason: additional comment
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For Diplome - see comments page 62, 18 Dec 2010 18:28 of this thread
a) Invalid vote (conducted by UNITE?) 16 November - 14 December 2009
_____________________Total__Yes____No___Spoiled__Not returned
Number of ballot papers 12780__ 9514 ___770____2______2494
Percentages__________100%_-_74.0%__6.0%__0.01%___19.5%
b) Valid vote (conducted by the Electoral Reform Service) that ended 22 February 2010
_____________________Total__Yes____No___Spoiled__Not returned
Number of ballot papers_11691_ 7482 __1789___11______2409
Percentages__________100%_-_64.0%_15.3%__0.1%___20.6%
c) New Contract offered by BA. reported by the Electoral Reform Service on 20 July 2010
_____________________Total___Yes___No___Spoiled_Not returned
Number of ballot papers_11311__1686__3419___3______6203
Percentages__________ 100%_-15.0%_30.2%_-0.03%__54.8%
an additional reference that corrects the 2009 numbers:-___link
_____________________Total__Yes____No___Spoiled__Not returned
Number of ballot papers 12780__ 9514 ___770____2______2494
Percentages__________100%_-_74.0%__6.0%__0.01%___19.5%
b) Valid vote (conducted by the Electoral Reform Service) that ended 22 February 2010
_____________________Total__Yes____No___Spoiled__Not returned
Number of ballot papers_11691_ 7482 __1789___11______2409
Percentages__________100%_-_64.0%_15.3%__0.1%___20.6%
c) New Contract offered by BA. reported by the Electoral Reform Service on 20 July 2010
_____________________Total___Yes___No___Spoiled_Not returned
Number of ballot papers_11311__1686__3419___3______6203
Percentages__________ 100%_-15.0%_30.2%_-0.03%__54.8%
an additional reference that corrects the 2009 numbers:-___link
Last edited by notlangley; 21st Dec 2010 at 05:47. Reason: BASSA changed to Unite
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To CCC and others, kindly note that I have only mentioned my role to establish my credibility to speak on matters pertaining to board decisions and in particular the fine line the board treads between many factors to be balanced in making decisions.
I don't believe that I have mentioned my salary, bank account, resume or any other details apart from the function I direct and the latter only to make it clear that I am not in an operational role.
Get over it and move on.
I don't believe that I have mentioned my salary, bank account, resume or any other details apart from the function I direct and the latter only to make it clear that I am not in an operational role.
Get over it and move on.
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I don't believe that I have mentioned my salary, bank account, resume or any other details apart from the function I direct.
Get over it and move on.
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Joao de Silva:
As a marketing director I'm sure that you can provide insight into how each of the parties "sell" their positions and what influences may be affecting BA's placement.
However, my personal experience is that Board membership is only as good as the Board you serve on...hence individuals will still feel free to disagree.
As for your direction to "get over it and move on" I believe that those directives to forum members are the exclusive province of our Moderators. A "Board" that I can assure you neither one of us hold office on.
As a marketing director I'm sure that you can provide insight into how each of the parties "sell" their positions and what influences may be affecting BA's placement.
However, my personal experience is that Board membership is only as good as the Board you serve on...hence individuals will still feel free to disagree.
As for your direction to "get over it and move on" I believe that those directives to forum members are the exclusive province of our Moderators. A "Board" that I can assure you neither one of us hold office on.
Last edited by Diplome; 21st Dec 2010 at 13:32.
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Diplome
I have an opinion, others have opinions, they will vary and I respect the different views, even if I don't think they are probably correct; it will all come out in the wash.
And I don't see why I cannot suggest that people 'get over it and move on', this thread is about the BA industrial relations, not about a small cabal of people who apparently take offence at anything outside their 'weltangschau.'
Even Litebulbs, who is the most reasonable of people and who argues his position very well has been harangued, to say nothing of Betty Girl, who has now ceased to comment.
Shall we just now focus on the issue at hand? BA industrial relations.
I have an opinion, others have opinions, they will vary and I respect the different views, even if I don't think they are probably correct; it will all come out in the wash.
And I don't see why I cannot suggest that people 'get over it and move on', this thread is about the BA industrial relations, not about a small cabal of people who apparently take offence at anything outside their 'weltangschau.'
Even Litebulbs, who is the most reasonable of people and who argues his position very well has been harangued, to say nothing of Betty Girl, who has now ceased to comment.
Shall we just now focus on the issue at hand? BA industrial relations.
From the other place:
"(BA) ........are showing such contempt towards Bassa...."
er, I thought the point was that bassa have been so bad over the last couple of years that they are beneath contempt.
Before about 2000 they must have been quite a good union to "earn" their heritage CC such huge salaries..................
Some idiot put the CC under the Marketing Director rather than in Ops., thus they all always got what they wanted.
(Diplome - no insult intended!!)
"(BA) ........are showing such contempt towards Bassa...."
er, I thought the point was that bassa have been so bad over the last couple of years that they are beneath contempt.
Before about 2000 they must have been quite a good union to "earn" their heritage CC such huge salaries..................
Some idiot put the CC under the Marketing Director rather than in Ops., thus they all always got what they wanted.
(Diplome - no insult intended!!)
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Some idiot put the CC under the Marketing Director rather than in Ops., thus they all always got what they wanted.
Who do you think the cabin crew came under from 2000?
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Ancient Observer:
Absolutely no offense taken.
Agree or disagree the exhange continues.
As for individuals trying to brand themselves through representations of "real world titles" as if that brings quality to their engagement...
I'm now a natural blonde. No questions asked, you all must accept this..I'm a natural blonde.
...and we continue.
And back to the more serious side of this situation...is it just me or has Unite and BASSA gone a bit quiet?
I'm truly interested in how Unite/BASSA will handle this ballot and what the final vote will be.
Where do they go afte a lost strike..something many fail to address. BASSA lost their strike. Sooo...where do they go now?
Absolutely no offense taken.
Agree or disagree the exhange continues.
As for individuals trying to brand themselves through representations of "real world titles" as if that brings quality to their engagement...
I'm now a natural blonde. No questions asked, you all must accept this..I'm a natural blonde.
...and we continue.
And back to the more serious side of this situation...is it just me or has Unite and BASSA gone a bit quiet?
I'm truly interested in how Unite/BASSA will handle this ballot and what the final vote will be.
Where do they go afte a lost strike..something many fail to address. BASSA lost their strike. Sooo...where do they go now?
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BA breaks the log jam?
No, not the snow log jam (though they are doing an admirable job of that now.)
It seems BA has taken the bull by the horns and is breaking the stalemate between BASSA (Unite really) and BA.
Allowing non-union members who left the union between June 25 and December 14 to sign the offer on their own, seems like a good way forward for those who want the offer. And for BA.
BA must have received feedback from their recent survey that moved things forward.
And then allowing Unite members to sign the offer if a "no" vote is returned on IA is brilliant. Their lawyers must have been burning the midnight oil on this one.
It will be interesting, because BA are devising a system by which the most militant are going to self-select and show their colors. If there is a 'no" vote and the most militant refuse to sign the offer that is then given to union members--they have marked themselves out as the core resistors.
Interesting.
It seems BA has taken the bull by the horns and is breaking the stalemate between BASSA (Unite really) and BA.
Allowing non-union members who left the union between June 25 and December 14 to sign the offer on their own, seems like a good way forward for those who want the offer. And for BA.
BA must have received feedback from their recent survey that moved things forward.
And then allowing Unite members to sign the offer if a "no" vote is returned on IA is brilliant. Their lawyers must have been burning the midnight oil on this one.
It will be interesting, because BA are devising a system by which the most militant are going to self-select and show their colors. If there is a 'no" vote and the most militant refuse to sign the offer that is then given to union members--they have marked themselves out as the core resistors.
Interesting.