BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III
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Juan Tripp
Should we be offered a proposal which is better than what was offered to non-union members this summer I do think that they should not be offered it. Why? Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action, which many of us participated in. They didn't and should therefore not benefit from it. You can't have the cake and eat it too. It's not up to me of course but that's my opinion and I can assure you that many happen to agree with me.
Diplome
I happen to disagree with you. Our issues within IFCE are no business of our pilots and ground staff.
Should we be offered a proposal which is better than what was offered to non-union members this summer I do think that they should not be offered it. Why? Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action, which many of us participated in. They didn't and should therefore not benefit from it. You can't have the cake and eat it too. It's not up to me of course but that's my opinion and I can assure you that many happen to agree with me.
Diplome
I happen to disagree with you. Our issues within IFCE are no business of our pilots and ground staff.
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Should we be offered a proposal which is better than what was offered to non-union members this summer I do think that they should not be offered it. Why? Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action, which many of us participated in. They didn't and should therefore not benefit from it. You can't have the cake and eat it too. It's not up to me of course but that's my opinion and I can assure you that many happen to agree with me.
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I do think that they should not be offered it. Why? Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action, which many of us participated in. They didn't and should therefore not benefit from it.
Complexity of agreements and contracts builds in an admin burden and associated costs. Unless there is a good reason to operate in a different fashion the company will attempt to reduce any unnecessary cost.
Bottom line, if a better deal is struck with UNITE than has been signed with the non-unionised crew (as unlikely as that is) then expect all crew to be put on the same deal. If UNITE cannot get an agreement as good as the one agreed with the non-unionised crew do not expect them to be forced onto a worse deal.
Perhaps more effort should be put into securing a deal than trying to find ways of punishing those who have a different view on the current IA. Concentrating on feuding is a tradition in the CC unions (BASSA and CC89 reps fighting in the car park), maybe it is time to step away from these outmoded and self-harming practices.
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Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action
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Colonel and Juan
Two good posts, but we are probably looking at them from different directions. You can't switch collective bargaining on and off; some will benefit for free, but most will pay in more than one way. I think its worth the cost, however.
The thing you really have to look at is the ERA1996 and and TULcRA 1992, have been around an awfully long time. We have now had all sides of politics in the UK in power, with no substantial change back in favour of employees/unions. What does that say? There is probably a small percentage of businesses that will buckle to strike action. The small employers would probably go bust and companies the size of BA, will plead poverty, but will rustle up huge pots of cash to fight off action, as has been proved.
A new approach is needed, but god knows what it is.
The thing you really have to look at is the ERA1996 and and TULcRA 1992, have been around an awfully long time. We have now had all sides of politics in the UK in power, with no substantial change back in favour of employees/unions. What does that say? There is probably a small percentage of businesses that will buckle to strike action. The small employers would probably go bust and companies the size of BA, will plead poverty, but will rustle up huge pots of cash to fight off action, as has been proved.
A new approach is needed, but god knows what it is.
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Litebulbs
It's not a new approach, but it needs both sides in any dispute to be prepared to sit down, talk, see the other side's viewpoints but above all come to a structured agreement without recourse to either side taking precipitive action.
As has been stated in the various thread IA should be seen as the last resort and strike action only when all other avenues have been exhausted.
It's not a new approach, but it needs both sides in any dispute to be prepared to sit down, talk, see the other side's viewpoints but above all come to a structured agreement without recourse to either side taking precipitive action.
As has been stated in the various thread IA should be seen as the last resort and strike action only when all other avenues have been exhausted.
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Call100:
If you have been reading any of the public forums you would realize that BA hardly need to "invent" a persona...the vast majority of individuals simply do not support BASSA's conduct or their position....whatever that may be from day to day.
The fact that BASSA is unaware of the status of present negotiations says much.
If you have been reading any of the public forums you would realize that BA hardly need to "invent" a persona...the vast majority of individuals simply do not support BASSA's conduct or their position....whatever that may be from day to day.
The fact that BASSA is unaware of the status of present negotiations says much.
Thanks for the lecture. I have been reading public forums and I am quite aware of some public feeling....Although I would suggest that the vast majority of the 'Public' couldn't give a tinkers cuss about any of it. Unlike those of us on here they have lives to live....
I do not support BASSA's conduct throughout this dispute any more than I support BA's. My hope for all is that an amicable solution be found and those affected can get some peace in the workplace until the next disagreement...
I agree with Litebulbs that new approaches to IR need to be looked at....Kick out all the old TU dinosaurs and the ancient HR/IR advisor's to companies (they are as bad as each other) and find a new way of making improvements in the workplace...
I doubt it will happen, but, hey! We can hope...
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I think yes they would.
It appears in this case that negotiation has led to acceptable agreement in other parts of BA. This, to me, suggests the company is open to sensible negotiation even with branches of Unite.
So where did it go wrong in this case??
It appears in this case that negotiation has led to acceptable agreement in other parts of BA. This, to me, suggests the company is open to sensible negotiation even with branches of Unite.
So where did it go wrong in this case??
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Should we be offered a proposal which is better than what was offered to non-union members this summer I do think that they should not be offered it. Why? Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action, which many of us participated in. They didn't and should therefore not benefit from it. You can't have the cake and eat it too. It's not up to me of course but that's my opinion and I can assure you that many happen to agree with me
Or is MissM's suggestion BASSA's fiendishly clever new master plan: to allow its major foe (BA) to divide, conquer and then to rule its cabin crew as the BA leadership team wishes?
Lu
cy.:, unadulterated lucy!Could be (no, perish the thought!) that MissM and her BASSA comrades have been out-manoeuvred?
Last edited by Chuchinchow; 11th Oct 2010 at 23:08.
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west lakes
Well, it would be interesting to see if BA would stick to the market rate +10% mantra for my old grade. It would be a sensible negotiation and easily bench markable. But BA did the job on that department years ago. The structure is now in place would make effective strike action almost impossible. Binding arbitration; I doubt it.
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Do you want to see an end to the dispute, or are you just enjoying the battle?
Lizanne Malone, Duncan Holley and the rest of the BASSA reps have been exposed for what they are: bumbling, inept and self-serving manipulators of the dues-paying membership. That is why BA was able to take advantage and to sign up non unionised cabin crew staff to the fairly lucrative settlement they now enjoy.
Those far-sighted men and women still enjoy staff travel and have retained seniority when flying as passengers. Can anyone say the same about the BASSA stalwarts, who are still baying for Willy Walsh's scalp to be nailed to the doors of Cranebank? What is BASSA doing to alleviate the problems of that woman who purports to commute from Johannesburg?
BASSA has painted itself into a corner from which it now has no escape. It is neutered, emasculated. Difficult for MIssM to comprehend, but those are the facts.
Which reminds me: why have we not been regaled by a florid and over-weaning account of BASSA's barristers' triumphs in Court 74 today? DH certainly found time to do that back in the winter.
And incidentally, Litebulbs, my question
Could be (no, perish the thought!) that MissM and her BASSA comrades have been out-manoeuvred?
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Churchinchow
Fair enough. I just look back to Project Columbus and getting a particular group back to hands on, there were two parties to blame. There appeared to be a healthy list of volunteers for VR (a) and if the new deal is as lucrative (b) as you say, then a+b should have equaled happiness.
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Quite possibly,Litebulbs,
However, as the title of this section of PPRuNe implies
I am just that: a passenger.
As such, I have no concrete information available to me on "Columbus" in the context you mention.
Nevertheless, the sooner this tragic, pus-laden abscess of a labour dispute is lanced and drained the better it will be for everyone: passengers, management, cabin crew - even (and especially) MissM, who has loyally toed the BASSA line throughout.
The only ones who will derive no benefit from the dispute will be LM and DH.
However, as the title of this section of PPRuNe implies
Passengers & SLF (Self Loading Freight) If you are regularly a passenger on any airline then why not post your questions here?
As such, I have no concrete information available to me on "Columbus" in the context you mention.
Nevertheless, the sooner this tragic, pus-laden abscess of a labour dispute is lanced and drained the better it will be for everyone: passengers, management, cabin crew - even (and especially) MissM, who has loyally toed the BASSA line throughout.
The only ones who will derive no benefit from the dispute will be LM and DH.
Last edited by Chuchinchow; 11th Oct 2010 at 23:58.
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Litebulbs:
"...Unions hardly ever win."
I would have to respectfully disagree with this comment. My personal opinion is that progressive and reasonable unions win victories every day. Victories that not only provide benefits to their members but also prove their value to their employers.
This dispute is an oddity in part due to the extreme actions and statements of BASSA leadership...and MissM is, in my opinion, an almost perfect representation of why BASSA's losses have been so significant.
I understand the motivation behind many comments of "Its nice to hear the other side"...and "thank you for coming on offering your opinion and I must respect that"...personally I feel if the other side is deluded its okay to state the obvious and I don't have to respect sheer denial of fact or history. Sometimes the Emperor has no clothes and in this case BASSA is stark naked.
"...Unions hardly ever win."
I would have to respectfully disagree with this comment. My personal opinion is that progressive and reasonable unions win victories every day. Victories that not only provide benefits to their members but also prove their value to their employers.
This dispute is an oddity in part due to the extreme actions and statements of BASSA leadership...and MissM is, in my opinion, an almost perfect representation of why BASSA's losses have been so significant.
I understand the motivation behind many comments of "Its nice to hear the other side"...and "thank you for coming on offering your opinion and I must respect that"...personally I feel if the other side is deluded its okay to state the obvious and I don't have to respect sheer denial of fact or history. Sometimes the Emperor has no clothes and in this case BASSA is stark naked.
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BASSA/Unite apparently called off an emanate ballot for Industrial Action Sunday 10/10/10. Does anybody know what the basis of this IA was to be? Have the BASSA leadership shared with the masses what injustice they will strike for? Will it be the requirement to lower window blinds without consultation with BASSA regarding the health and safety issues associated with this duty?
My opinion is there was not to be and will not be any ballot for IA. BASSA leadership are grasping at straws. How does Tony Woodley expect to negotiate with BA when this group of clowns exercising a veto over whatever he achieves? This will not end until Unite cut BASSA loose, an unlikely event given the amount of dues involved, or a sufficient number of Cabin Crew tire of paying BASSA dues.
My opinion is there was not to be and will not be any ballot for IA. BASSA leadership are grasping at straws. How does Tony Woodley expect to negotiate with BA when this group of clowns exercising a veto over whatever he achieves? This will not end until Unite cut BASSA loose, an unlikely event given the amount of dues involved, or a sufficient number of Cabin Crew tire of paying BASSA dues.
