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BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III

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BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III

Old 11th Oct 2010, 21:10
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Juan Tripp

Should we be offered a proposal which is better than what was offered to non-union members this summer I do think that they should not be offered it. Why? Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action, which many of us participated in. They didn't and should therefore not benefit from it. You can't have the cake and eat it too. It's not up to me of course but that's my opinion and I can assure you that many happen to agree with me.

Diplome

I happen to disagree with you. Our issues within IFCE are no business of our pilots and ground staff.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 21:26
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Should we be offered a proposal which is better than what was offered to non-union members this summer I do think that they should not be offered it. Why? Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action, which many of us participated in. They didn't and should therefore not benefit from it. You can't have the cake and eat it too. It's not up to me of course but that's my opinion and I can assure you that many happen to agree with me.
An interesting proposition. So presumably Miss M you would wish to dismantle the NSP agreements as well as they cover union and non-union members alike. Beware, this could lead to a very dangerous situation for cabin crew. It sounds like you wish to abandon the notion of collective bargaining altogether. This enables BA management to play one group of cabin crew off against another. You would have no visibility of what pay offers BA management might make to the non-union workforce. By fragmenting the pay bargaining in this way you are undoing over 40 years of hard one union effort. BA management would love to have what you propose. Talk about divide and rule. And I thought you BASSA folk were supposed to be pretty clued up on negotiating with management.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 21:32
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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I do think that they should not be offered it. Why? Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action, which many of us participated in. They didn't and should therefore not benefit from it.
I guess the problem for this view is that by being part of a union you accept collective bargaining - so does the company. The breakdown of this collective bargaining is the reason that the company has offered deals to the non-unionised portion of the cabin crew.

Complexity of agreements and contracts builds in an admin burden and associated costs. Unless there is a good reason to operate in a different fashion the company will attempt to reduce any unnecessary cost.

Bottom line, if a better deal is struck with UNITE than has been signed with the non-unionised crew (as unlikely as that is) then expect all crew to be put on the same deal. If UNITE cannot get an agreement as good as the one agreed with the non-unionised crew do not expect them to be forced onto a worse deal.

Perhaps more effort should be put into securing a deal than trying to find ways of punishing those who have a different view on the current IA. Concentrating on feuding is a tradition in the CC unions (BASSA and CC89 reps fighting in the car park), maybe it is time to step away from these outmoded and self-harming practices.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 21:32
  #84 (permalink)  
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Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action
So as earlier posters have suggested in the other thread, if it is true that CC89 actually negotiated a lot of improvements in T & Cs. Should BASSA members be entitled to them?
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 22:09
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Colonel and Juan

Two good posts, but we are probably looking at them from different directions. You can't switch collective bargaining on and off; some will benefit for free, but most will pay in more than one way. I think its worth the cost, however.

The thing you really have to look at is the ERA1996 and and TULcRA 1992, have been around an awfully long time. We have now had all sides of politics in the UK in power, with no substantial change back in favour of employees/unions. What does that say? There is probably a small percentage of businesses that will buckle to strike action. The small employers would probably go bust and companies the size of BA, will plead poverty, but will rustle up huge pots of cash to fight off action, as has been proved.

A new approach is needed, but god knows what it is.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 22:20
  #86 (permalink)  
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Litebulbs

It's not a new approach, but it needs both sides in any dispute to be prepared to sit down, talk, see the other side's viewpoints but above all come to a structured agreement without recourse to either side taking precipitive action.

As has been stated in the various thread IA should be seen as the last resort and strike action only when all other avenues have been exhausted.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 22:27
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Diplome View Post
Call100:

If you have been reading any of the public forums you would realize that BA hardly need to "invent" a persona...the vast majority of individuals simply do not support BASSA's conduct or their position....whatever that may be from day to day.

The fact that BASSA is unaware of the status of present negotiations says much.
I agree, They don't have to invent one...That doesn't mean they haven't or wouldn't...
Thanks for the lecture. I have been reading public forums and I am quite aware of some public feeling....Although I would suggest that the vast majority of the 'Public' couldn't give a tinkers cuss about any of it. Unlike those of us on here they have lives to live....
I do not support BASSA's conduct throughout this dispute any more than I support BA's. My hope for all is that an amicable solution be found and those affected can get some peace in the workplace until the next disagreement...
I agree with Litebulbs that new approaches to IR need to be looked at....Kick out all the old TU dinosaurs and the ancient HR/IR advisor's to companies (they are as bad as each other) and find a new way of making improvements in the workplace...
I doubt it will happen, but, hey! We can hope...
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 22:28
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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west lakes

I agree, but do you think business would enter into that sort of agreement process, when the balance of law is in its favour?
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 22:40
  #89 (permalink)  
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I think yes they would.
It appears in this case that negotiation has led to acceptable agreement in other parts of BA. This, to me, suggests the company is open to sensible negotiation even with branches of Unite.
So where did it go wrong in this case??
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 22:56
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Should we be offered a proposal which is better than what was offered to non-union members this summer I do think that they should not be offered it. Why? Because the proposal would be the result of our industrial action, which many of us participated in. They didn't and should therefore not benefit from it. You can't have the cake and eat it too. It's not up to me of course but that's my opinion and I can assure you that many happen to agree with me
Judging by MissM's latest oeuvre it is clearly time for BASSA to put up a new duty spokesman.

Or is MissM's suggestion BASSA's fiendishly clever new master plan: to allow its major foe (BA) to divide, conquer and then to rule its cabin crew as the BA leadership team wishes?

Lucy.:, unadulterated lucy!

Could be (no, perish the thought!) that MissM and her BASSA comrades have been out-manoeuvred?

Last edited by Chuchinchow; 11th Oct 2010 at 23:08.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 22:57
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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west lakes

Well, it would be interesting to see if BA would stick to the market rate +10% mantra for my old grade. It would be a sensible negotiation and easily bench markable. But BA did the job on that department years ago. The structure is now in place would make effective strike action almost impossible. Binding arbitration; I doubt it.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 23:10
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chuchinchow View Post
Lucy.:, unadulterated lucy!

Could be (no, perish the thought!) that MissM and her BASSA comrades have been out-manoeuvred?
What is the point of the post? Do you want to see an end to the dispute, or are you just enjoying the battle?
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 23:24
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Do you want to see an end to the dispute, or are you just enjoying the battle?
Both. The sheer farce and black comedy that are BASSA's "negotiating abilities" are the greatest free show on earth.

Lizanne Malone, Duncan Holley and the rest of the BASSA reps have been exposed for what they are: bumbling, inept and self-serving manipulators of the dues-paying membership. That is why BA was able to take advantage and to sign up non unionised cabin crew staff to the fairly lucrative settlement they now enjoy.

Those far-sighted men and women still enjoy staff travel and have retained seniority when flying as passengers. Can anyone say the same about the BASSA stalwarts, who are still baying for Willy Walsh's scalp to be nailed to the doors of Cranebank? What is BASSA doing to alleviate the problems of that woman who purports to commute from Johannesburg?

BASSA has painted itself into a corner from which it now has no escape. It is neutered, emasculated. Difficult for MIssM to comprehend, but those are the facts.

Which reminds me: why have we not been regaled by a florid and over-weaning account of BASSA's barristers' triumphs in Court 74 today? DH certainly found time to do that back in the winter.

And incidentally, Litebulbs, my question
Could be (no, perish the thought!) that MissM and her BASSA comrades have been out-manoeuvred?
is quite a valid one - even if it is too unpleasant for trade unionists to contemplate
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 23:36
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Churchinchow

Fair enough. I just look back to Project Columbus and getting a particular group back to hands on, there were two parties to blame. There appeared to be a healthy list of volunteers for VR (a) and if the new deal is as lucrative (b) as you say, then a+b should have equaled happiness.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 23:42
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chuchinchow View Post
And incidentally, Litebulbs, my question is quite a valid one - even if it is too unpleasant for trade unionists to contemplate
I am an employee first, if that comment was directed at me. Unions hardly ever win, it is just a watering down exercise.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 23:46
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Quite possibly,Litebulbs,

However, as the title of this section of PPRuNe implies
Passengers & SLF (Self Loading Freight) If you are regularly a passenger on any airline then why not post your questions here?
I am just that: a passenger.

As such, I have no concrete information available to me on "Columbus" in the context you mention.

Nevertheless, the sooner this tragic, pus-laden abscess of a labour dispute is lanced and drained the better it will be for everyone: passengers, management, cabin crew - even (and especially) MissM, who has loyally toed the BASSA line throughout.

The only ones who will derive no benefit from the dispute will be LM and DH.

Last edited by Chuchinchow; 11th Oct 2010 at 23:58.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 23:56
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Well, as a passenger, why is the dispute so important to you?
Litebulbs, please re-read the penultimate paragraph of my last message.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 01:24
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Litebulbs:

"...Unions hardly ever win."

I would have to respectfully disagree with this comment. My personal opinion is that progressive and reasonable unions win victories every day. Victories that not only provide benefits to their members but also prove their value to their employers.

This dispute is an oddity in part due to the extreme actions and statements of BASSA leadership...and MissM is, in my opinion, an almost perfect representation of why BASSA's losses have been so significant.

I understand the motivation behind many comments of "Its nice to hear the other side"...and "thank you for coming on offering your opinion and I must respect that"...personally I feel if the other side is deluded its okay to state the obvious and I don't have to respect sheer denial of fact or history. Sometimes the Emperor has no clothes and in this case BASSA is stark naked.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 02:49
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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BASSA/Unite apparently called off an emanate ballot for Industrial Action Sunday 10/10/10. Does anybody know what the basis of this IA was to be? Have the BASSA leadership shared with the masses what injustice they will strike for? Will it be the requirement to lower window blinds without consultation with BASSA regarding the health and safety issues associated with this duty?
My opinion is there was not to be and will not be any ballot for IA. BASSA leadership are grasping at straws. How does Tony Woodley expect to negotiate with BA when this group of clowns exercising a veto over whatever he achieves? This will not end until Unite cut BASSA loose, an unlikely event given the amount of dues involved, or a sufficient number of Cabin Crew tire of paying BASSA dues.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 06:21
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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pcat160 - I think the disciplinary cases were to be the subject of the new ballot.
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