BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III
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Are you suggesting that BASSA members will be worse of in the future? That certainly goes against the grain on both threads.
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Yes! The prospect of the new fleet (which I think all will acknowledge) is bound to affect the so-called "Heritage " crews as routes are transferred over time. Further, the original deal included a share option which disappeared fairly rapidly following the first rejection.
It is clear that the BASSA committee saw only the disadvantages for their own grades and in doing so, ignored the prospects for the "worker bees". Even to the point where they deny their members a vote on the company's proposals.
It is clear that the BASSA committee saw only the disadvantages for their own grades and in doing so, ignored the prospects for the "worker bees". Even to the point where they deny their members a vote on the company's proposals.
Last edited by Dawdler; 24th Nov 2010 at 01:14. Reason: schpelling mistook
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Litebulbs:
I would have to agree with Dawdler in the sense that Cabin Crew will be "worse off" in the future, but only in the sense that they were given opportunities to influence certain directions, obtain share options, etc., etc. and they said "No". Those opportunities will not come back.
Legacy crew, in my opinion, will not be allowed to influence Mixed Fleet. Legacy Crew's conduct has assured that Mixed Fleet is branded something quite apart from present crew. If Mixed Fleet fails to perform then Legacy can claim a victory, but if Mixed Fleet does perform and gains high passenger reviews, then Legacy makes itself appear negative and isolated.
The offer that was pulled after McCluskey's moment of drama was not one that should have been so easily dismissed. If BASSA fails to receive everything under that proposal then yes, they are worse off.
I would have to agree with Dawdler in the sense that Cabin Crew will be "worse off" in the future, but only in the sense that they were given opportunities to influence certain directions, obtain share options, etc., etc. and they said "No". Those opportunities will not come back.
Legacy crew, in my opinion, will not be allowed to influence Mixed Fleet. Legacy Crew's conduct has assured that Mixed Fleet is branded something quite apart from present crew. If Mixed Fleet fails to perform then Legacy can claim a victory, but if Mixed Fleet does perform and gains high passenger reviews, then Legacy makes itself appear negative and isolated.
The offer that was pulled after McCluskey's moment of drama was not one that should have been so easily dismissed. If BASSA fails to receive everything under that proposal then yes, they are worse off.
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Well, that explains why they are in dispute then.
However I do agree that BASSA members should be regarded as in dispute, however their dispute is with their union's officers, not their employer.
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Diplome
We all know I was being flippant, but it is late.
Shares at the level they would be offered mean nothing, in my opinion. At senior levels, when we are talking about tens of thousands, then it is an income from dividends. At the lower ends of the employment scale, it is a little savings bonus that might help towards a car after a few years. Not something to base a mortgage on.
Would we (sorry, they) be in the same place if BA had said we need
Shares at the level they would be offered mean nothing, in my opinion. At senior levels, when we are talking about tens of thousands, then it is an income from dividends. At the lower ends of the employment scale, it is a little savings bonus that might help towards a car after a few years. Not something to base a mortgage on.
Would we (sorry, they) be in the same place if BA had said we need
- volunteers to go on a good deal
- for that the most senior grade will be more involved
- new starters will broadly be on LGW terms
- existing staff will not be affected
- we will guarantee allowances in a new format
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"THEY CAN'T DO THAT" is a phrase that requires education, but it takes a dispute for employees to take an interest in what an employer can and can't do. There are 13000 employees who are learning this lesson today.
Paxing All Over The World
Next step along the way ...
BA union's 'outrage' over staff suspension - Home News, UK - The Independent
The prospect of another strike by BA cabin crew loomed nearer yesterday, after a woman was sent home for organising a collection for Christmas gifts for the children of employees who have been sacked or suspended.
It makes interesting reading
BA union's 'outrage' over staff suspension - Home News, UK - The Independent
The prospect of another strike by BA cabin crew loomed nearer yesterday, after a woman was sent home for organising a collection for Christmas gifts for the children of employees who have been sacked or suspended.
It makes interesting reading
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Don't forget the Audit
If a different lady were in the street making this collection then the local authority would require that the lady was licenced._ Also the person who was the organiser of the collection would be required by the local authority, at the expense of that person and after a qualified accountant has given his certificate, publish in such newspaper or newspapers as the licensing authority may direct a statement showing the name of the person to whom the permit has been granted, the area to which the permit relates, the name of the fund to benefit, the date of the collection, the amount collected, and the amount of the expenses and payments incurred in connection with such collection.
By collecting on the property of BA or BAA these anti-fraud regulations are avoided._ I believe that this was a truly innocent mistake._ I feel very sorry that this unfortunate lady has stumbled into a hornets nest.
By collecting on the property of BA or BAA these anti-fraud regulations are avoided._ I believe that this was a truly innocent mistake._ I feel very sorry that this unfortunate lady has stumbled into a hornets nest.
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This is what any trade union would organise around Christmas. It shows how much society has changed for the worse.
This will only act as a further rallying point for those wanting a yes vote in any future ballot.
I'm sure BA could have handled it more sensitively, if they had the will.
This will only act as a further rallying point for those wanting a yes vote in any future ballot.
I'm sure BA could have handled it more sensitively, if they had the will.
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Let's be absolutely clear about this before the Union, yet again, takes its emotionally-charged, morally-outraged, high-ground position - which it will anyway.
BA had to suspend the employee because another employee complained.
BA is obliged to take this action under the Union-agreed terms of its disciplinary procedure otherwise it would be in default of those terms. Further, while the Union can shoot its mouth off with gay abandon as usual, BA is bound, and as such maintains its professional pose and continues to adhere, to the terms in not disclosing the details of the complaint and thus its reasons for the suspension.
If the Union doesn't want its members being suspended for non work-related activitites in the work place then it should make absolutely sure those activites do not cause anyone to be offended and complain.
Does anyone know if the employee who complained is a Union member? If they were this situation would be even more breathtakingly hypocritical and it would be far more appropriate for Tony Woodley to direct his moral outrage at asking his offended member to withdraw their complaint than to accuse BA of B & H. Indeed, if BA played with the same lack of maturity as the Union it would be shouting its mouth off by now claiming that the whole matter was a deliberate set-up by the Union to gain public sympathy.
It is now becoming so irrationally and emotionally charged that people are losing what little common sense they had at the outset - if they ever had any.
BA has no choice but to take significant and decisive action to bring this small minority (in terms of total BA) of disruptive staff under control and very soon.
AVF
P.S. Perhaps the Union has finally found a reason to ballot its members and the Union leadership will now find out what it has been trying to avoid for the last few months - just exactly how much support it still has left among its rank and file members.
BA had to suspend the employee because another employee complained.
BA is obliged to take this action under the Union-agreed terms of its disciplinary procedure otherwise it would be in default of those terms. Further, while the Union can shoot its mouth off with gay abandon as usual, BA is bound, and as such maintains its professional pose and continues to adhere, to the terms in not disclosing the details of the complaint and thus its reasons for the suspension.
If the Union doesn't want its members being suspended for non work-related activitites in the work place then it should make absolutely sure those activites do not cause anyone to be offended and complain.
Does anyone know if the employee who complained is a Union member? If they were this situation would be even more breathtakingly hypocritical and it would be far more appropriate for Tony Woodley to direct his moral outrage at asking his offended member to withdraw their complaint than to accuse BA of B & H. Indeed, if BA played with the same lack of maturity as the Union it would be shouting its mouth off by now claiming that the whole matter was a deliberate set-up by the Union to gain public sympathy.
It is now becoming so irrationally and emotionally charged that people are losing what little common sense they had at the outset - if they ever had any.
BA has no choice but to take significant and decisive action to bring this small minority (in terms of total BA) of disruptive staff under control and very soon.
AVF
P.S. Perhaps the Union has finally found a reason to ballot its members and the Union leadership will now find out what it has been trying to avoid for the last few months - just exactly how much support it still has left among its rank and file members.
Last edited by AV Flyer; 24th Nov 2010 at 10:13.
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litebulbs:
British Airways has not paid any dividends for a few years now! but I take your point that share offers are worth less to the "masses". However it is still a positive benefit, and one which BASSA members were denied a voice on, because of the Union.
Shares at the level they would be offered mean nothing, in my opinion. At senior levels, when we are talking about tens of thousands, then it is an income from dividends
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BA had to suspend the employee because another employee complained.
Below is a quote from the newsflash on Santascrew webpage mentioning the circumstances surrounding the suspension.
Today we are sad to announce that one of our fantastic Santa Helpers ( Andrea) has been suspended from duty. It has been alledged by another crew member that he/she felt intimidated into donating when dozens of other crew members were handing over money willingly. Andrea has over the years raised thousands for various charities and organisations and not a single person has ever thought of her as being 'intimidating'.
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what a bunch of pathetic jobsworth we have become. Its a xmas whipround for a good cause. You are free to say no thanks.
It isn't the union being a problem here its society. we are slowly losing the plot.
It isn't the union being a problem here its society. we are slowly losing the plot.
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Re the collection issue.
A previous poster alluded to the fact that BA are obliged to take action if a complaint is made.
Perhaps, this was a deliberately set up situation to make BA get bad press.
I'll take my Machiavellian hat off now.
A previous poster alluded to the fact that BA are obliged to take action if a complaint is made.
Perhaps, this was a deliberately set up situation to make BA get bad press.
I'll take my Machiavellian hat off now.
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Independent Article
Union leaders said:
Was that "All" she was doing?
What was she saying to people who refused to donate? how was she reacting to other employees? what did she say when asking for money? was she criticising her employer in the workplace? and how did she act when management asked her to stop?
How did other employees feel when being publicly asked to support the sacked in front of their peers, to show support ot ortherwise publically when they want to keep their opinions private?
I dont know the answers to these questions, but there are always two sides to a story. As usual, BA do not comment on individual cases (quite rightly) so we are just left with the spin from one side (BASSA).
Tony Woodley:
So again, the trade union wants to go against the rules and regulations that they have negotiated..... one rule for trade union staff, and another rule for everone else?
If "All" Andrea did was shake a tin, then I would have thought she will get a slap on the wrist and will be re-instated.... but first the process (which the trade union agreed upon) has to be applied. And this means she is suspended pending a review of her actions, and those who were affected by it.
Quite how Andrea felt her actions of asking for money for sacked employees were justifiable, when it was in her workplace, from individuals who have possibly been bullied by those sacked members in the first place, and was done whilst being paid by her employer is beyond me....
All Andrea was doing was asking people if they wished to donate any money.
What was she saying to people who refused to donate? how was she reacting to other employees? what did she say when asking for money? was she criticising her employer in the workplace? and how did she act when management asked her to stop?
How did other employees feel when being publicly asked to support the sacked in front of their peers, to show support ot ortherwise publically when they want to keep their opinions private?
I dont know the answers to these questions, but there are always two sides to a story. As usual, BA do not comment on individual cases (quite rightly) so we are just left with the spin from one side (BASSA).
Tony Woodley:
I am urging you to intervene to lift Andrea's suspension immediately, failing which the consequences will rest entirely with management
If "All" Andrea did was shake a tin, then I would have thought she will get a slap on the wrist and will be re-instated.... but first the process (which the trade union agreed upon) has to be applied. And this means she is suspended pending a review of her actions, and those who were affected by it.
Quite how Andrea felt her actions of asking for money for sacked employees were justifiable, when it was in her workplace, from individuals who have possibly been bullied by those sacked members in the first place, and was done whilst being paid by her employer is beyond me....
Last edited by Richard228; 24th Nov 2010 at 10:28. Reason: only two spelling errors today!
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Might I suggest that the actions of Tomato Man and princess Lala have caused these people to lose their jobs in part, by their lack of guidance in acceptable behaviour during the dispute.
In that case maybe they, and Duncan in particular, should be donating the money he is still (presumably) raking in from the BASSA members to help the offspring of those he has, in part, caused to be sacked or suspended.
If that was done, there would be no need for collections in the CRC or elsewhere.
Just a thought, after all if Duncan is not prepared to do that, one may question his objectives and motivation.
Toodle pip ..
In that case maybe they, and Duncan in particular, should be donating the money he is still (presumably) raking in from the BASSA members to help the offspring of those he has, in part, caused to be sacked or suspended.
If that was done, there would be no need for collections in the CRC or elsewhere.
Just a thought, after all if Duncan is not prepared to do that, one may question his objectives and motivation.
Toodle pip ..
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Unite/BASSA/Amicus's Next Move?
The story left off with both BASSA & AMICUS refusing to recommend or submit BA's current offer to their members while Unite (TW) had declared this is as good as its going to get.
AMICUS & BASSA then came up with two different independent statements (not exactly formally structured counter offers) summarising their demands. AMICUS's was far more stringent than BASSA's which, combined with Unite's hard fought over original BA offer, meant that the three entities were at internal dispute over exactly what they wanted.
There was a brief statement to the effect that, in spite of breaking his agreement with BA, TW would take a counter offer back to BA but it is not clear what that counter offer would contain or whether that happened yet.
Unite then held its leadership ballot and is about to make an official announcement of its new GS - Len McCluskey.
A copy of a private congratulatory message purporting to be from DH to LM, which also delivered a curiously worded statement of grovelling with a veiled threat, appeared briefly on the other CC thread but was then deleted.
It was interesting to note that TW was still Unite's political spokesman today in attempting to score points over "Whip Around Gate".
BA's current offer is still on the table despite not being recommended by, or offered to, the Union and its Branch's members and contrary to the agreement bewteen BA & TW.
Over to you Unite/BASSA/AMICUS, your move .........
AMICUS & BASSA then came up with two different independent statements (not exactly formally structured counter offers) summarising their demands. AMICUS's was far more stringent than BASSA's which, combined with Unite's hard fought over original BA offer, meant that the three entities were at internal dispute over exactly what they wanted.
There was a brief statement to the effect that, in spite of breaking his agreement with BA, TW would take a counter offer back to BA but it is not clear what that counter offer would contain or whether that happened yet.
Unite then held its leadership ballot and is about to make an official announcement of its new GS - Len McCluskey.
A copy of a private congratulatory message purporting to be from DH to LM, which also delivered a curiously worded statement of grovelling with a veiled threat, appeared briefly on the other CC thread but was then deleted.
It was interesting to note that TW was still Unite's political spokesman today in attempting to score points over "Whip Around Gate".
BA's current offer is still on the table despite not being recommended by, or offered to, the Union and its Branch's members and contrary to the agreement bewteen BA & TW.
Over to you Unite/BASSA/AMICUS, your move .........
Last edited by AV Flyer; 24th Nov 2010 at 21:56.