BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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[This is probably more destined for the CC thread, but I am precluded from posting there because of my status] ... but ...
this discussion only appears to continue when someone from the BASSA/Unite side posts a comment elsewhere that results in it being copied in here and a set of comments following.
These people are never going to enter proper debate, as their
agenda is set.
If we were all to ignore the DH/LM/MissM's of this world, this whole dispute would fade into the abyss/hyperspace where it belongs.
By responding, we just feed the trolls and keep up their delusions that the dispute actually continues - it doesn't - BASSA have been destroyed (100%) and they are irrelevant.
So, what I am saying is, by commenting here, is that we give BASSA fuel to continue their campaign, so by stopping rising to the boring same old rhetoric from MissM etc, this thread would soon dry up due lack of interest.
STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS.
this discussion only appears to continue when someone from the BASSA/Unite side posts a comment elsewhere that results in it being copied in here and a set of comments following.
These people are never going to enter proper debate, as their
agenda is set.
If we were all to ignore the DH/LM/MissM's of this world, this whole dispute would fade into the abyss/hyperspace where it belongs.
By responding, we just feed the trolls and keep up their delusions that the dispute actually continues - it doesn't - BASSA have been destroyed (100%) and they are irrelevant.
So, what I am saying is, by commenting here, is that we give BASSA fuel to continue their campaign, so by stopping rising to the boring same old rhetoric from MissM etc, this thread would soon dry up due lack of interest.
STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS.
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What evidence do you have on all reps and unionists being liars and cheats?
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Well I might get some agreement here. That man is definitely not the future of Unite. I just hope all that can vote in this particular election, do.
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I broadly concur with TopBunk ... there is nothing new to be said until after the meeting/rally/whatever on the 6th.
What is, sadly, happening IMO is that frustration with the ongoing uncertainty is getting people to let of some blasts of ill-directed steam. That doesn't help anyone, and simply leads to more bickering.
What say you? Shall we all sit back quietly for a week, until there's something new and meaningful [or otherwise] to discuss?
What is, sadly, happening IMO is that frustration with the ongoing uncertainty is getting people to let of some blasts of ill-directed steam. That doesn't help anyone, and simply leads to more bickering.
What say you? Shall we all sit back quietly for a week, until there's something new and meaningful [or otherwise] to discuss?
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Ah call100
It would seem that you were hiding your union credentials and fighting as all union reps fight and not allow anyone an opinion that conflicts with your own.
I wasn't wrong to say that Scargill had been expelled. But you can certainly chastise the Mail if you wish.
Miners' hero Arthur Scargill expelled from union because he doesn't qualify | Mail Online
In my experience I stand by the statement about union reps (and shop stewards) standing together. They always have although occasionally some like Simpson put their foot in and invite the Socialist Working Party into a private meeting. That is not unionism. That was crass stupidity and embarrassed ACAS and BA, especially when he twittered all through the meeting!! Anyway, as you are obviously a staunch union man there is no further argument - it will be too one sided for me I'm afraid.
It would seem that you were hiding your union credentials and fighting as all union reps fight and not allow anyone an opinion that conflicts with your own.
I wasn't wrong to say that Scargill had been expelled. But you can certainly chastise the Mail if you wish.
Miners' hero Arthur Scargill expelled from union because he doesn't qualify | Mail Online
In my experience I stand by the statement about union reps (and shop stewards) standing together. They always have although occasionally some like Simpson put their foot in and invite the Socialist Working Party into a private meeting. That is not unionism. That was crass stupidity and embarrassed ACAS and BA, especially when he twittered all through the meeting!! Anyway, as you are obviously a staunch union man there is no further argument - it will be too one sided for me I'm afraid.
You are wrong about it being one sided (not like you to be wrong!). For the record I am not in the same camp as Scargill.
The Socialist workers party were not invited to the meeting they gate crashed. (Ooops wrong again)...
I have never hidden any Union credentials and made it clear where I'm coming from.(Oh dear! Wrong again)
I have not supported the BASSA dispute and have on several occasions criticised their methods. (wrong of you again!!). So, no, we do not always agree and therefore do not always stand together regardless of the issue.
If I was you I'd stop digging, but I doubt that will happen.
AlpineSkier @call100
I generally agree with you about the generalisation, but some commentary is valid when it incorporates Len mcCluskey who was prominent in the multi-page UNITE flyer.
I recall that early on in this dispute ( and this is from memory) he said something like " I've been involved in an lot of strikes.............."
Now this may just have been blow-hard nonsense of the type also used by politicians when talking to their faithful, but I got the feeling that he does see strike action as the real power of unions instead of negotiation and the desired outcome being a win for the workers with a bloody nose for the "bosses" rather than a negotiated settlement.
Can you tell me perhaps if there has been any discussion in TU circles why McC disappeared so quickly from the BA/BASSA fray ?
My cynical view is that when he saw it was heading towards a rout he pulled strings and , as a candidate for the top job, was allowed to retire gracefully without having this rotting albatross hanging round his neck. Am I warm ?
I generally agree with you about the generalisation, but some commentary is valid when it incorporates Len mcCluskey who was prominent in the multi-page UNITE flyer.
I recall that early on in this dispute ( and this is from memory) he said something like " I've been involved in an lot of strikes.............."
Now this may just have been blow-hard nonsense of the type also used by politicians when talking to their faithful, but I got the feeling that he does see strike action as the real power of unions instead of negotiation and the desired outcome being a win for the workers with a bloody nose for the "bosses" rather than a negotiated settlement.
Can you tell me perhaps if there has been any discussion in TU circles why McC disappeared so quickly from the BA/BASSA fray ?
My cynical view is that when he saw it was heading towards a rout he pulled strings and , as a candidate for the top job, was allowed to retire gracefully without having this rotting albatross hanging round his neck. Am I warm ?
As has you say, at that level everything is Political. It has little to do with day to day work negotiations any more than who wins the General Election. I have never used a Political view to interfere with a negotiation as I have never just voted for one party out of blind loyalty.
I don't think the majority of Union members (Any Union) could name the people at the top and I'm sure they are not interested.
So even when commenting about McCluskey it is not fair to generalise. I realise that different strokes for different folks is apt in situations like this and that there are many different opinions. We will never all agree, what a dull world it would be if we did??!
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Uniforms and Briefings
Having just read the thread BA - Singapore, regarding the crew being too busy discussing the strikes and the BA-Bassa situation, than to provide a proper service and attend to the customers - ('in so many words'; in case of any picking nits being about 
) - BA should bring in the following changes.
Instruct all uniformed staff that only the standard uniform may be worn - any deviation from this, such as Bassa lanyards, to be replaced with the correct item in exchange for the non standard item - staff not allowed to commence work until any non standard items replaced.
All briefings to be carried out under the authority and presence of the Captain, which will also help to bind the entire crew as one team entity. CSD's and SCCM's to ensure that the uniform standard is maintained at all times.
I firmly believe that this would help bring about a new team spirit and identify and remove some of the festering diversive influences currently at work.
) - BA should bring in the following changes.Instruct all uniformed staff that only the standard uniform may be worn - any deviation from this, such as Bassa lanyards, to be replaced with the correct item in exchange for the non standard item - staff not allowed to commence work until any non standard items replaced.
All briefings to be carried out under the authority and presence of the Captain, which will also help to bind the entire crew as one team entity. CSD's and SCCM's to ensure that the uniform standard is maintained at all times.
I firmly believe that this would help bring about a new team spirit and identify and remove some of the festering diversive influences currently at work.
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Just read the latest instructions to the masses from DH on the other thread, apart from the usual threats etc., one thing appears to be emerging - a true Basil Fawlty style "Zis Iss Your Furhrer Speaking" - trouble is he means it - which seems to be an escalation of manner to one which I would expect to be shown in someone with serious mental problems. Although many have previously made comments about 'losing it', I believe that now he has and the sooner Unite disband Bassa the better, before the calls are made to go to war!
Last edited by Entaxei; 31st Aug 2010 at 11:46. Reason: spell (casting)
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call100:
Forgive me for being a tad suspicious about the SWP somehow appearing by chance, with knowledge of exactly where to go, immediately after being addressed at their meeting by a BASSA member.
The fact that they were also present and welcome at Bedfont says much about BASSA...though its not as if an individual doesn't have a variety of incidents to cause their opinion of BASSA to be one of general disgust.
While I am certainly not anti-union, I do believe the only way Cabin Crew and BA are going to have a hope of success in the future is either a total change out of the militant leaders of BASSA, or the elimination of BASSA altogether.
Forgive me for being a tad suspicious about the SWP somehow appearing by chance, with knowledge of exactly where to go, immediately after being addressed at their meeting by a BASSA member.
The fact that they were also present and welcome at Bedfont says much about BASSA...though its not as if an individual doesn't have a variety of incidents to cause their opinion of BASSA to be one of general disgust.
While I am certainly not anti-union, I do believe the only way Cabin Crew and BA are going to have a hope of success in the future is either a total change out of the militant leaders of BASSA, or the elimination of BASSA altogether.
While I am certainly not anti-union, I do believe the only way Cabin Crew and BA are going to have a hope of success in the future is either a total change out of the militant leaders of BASSA, or the elimination of BASSA altogether
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call100
The Mail, The Telegraph, The Guardian, you may not like, but they report what they report whether it is true or not. Its been said and that’s what we 'listen to' - like it or not
Very true.
Anyway, I am afraid I draw the line at responding to sarcastic twaddle. Clearly you are not capable of holding a debate without resorting to snide. We have had enough of that. Not for me thanks.
The Mail, The Telegraph, The Guardian, you may not like, but they report what they report whether it is true or not. Its been said and that’s what we 'listen to' - like it or not
From Diplome
Forgive me for being a tad suspicious about the SWP somehow appearing by chance, with knowledge of exactly where to go, immediately after being addressed at their meeting by a BASSA member.
Forgive me for being a tad suspicious about the SWP somehow appearing by chance, with knowledge of exactly where to go, immediately after being addressed at their meeting by a BASSA member.
Anyway, I am afraid I draw the line at responding to sarcastic twaddle. Clearly you are not capable of holding a debate without resorting to snide. We have had enough of that. Not for me thanks.
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Calling all reps and unionists liars and cheats will probably bring about a reaction, rather than a debate.
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I have to agree with Litebulbs here. I would hazard a guess that in Union life, as in normal life, most people are honest and hard working, delivering their very best for the people they represent. There will also be a small minority of rogues, that sadly, is human nature.
What lies in between are those who choose to hold a different set of political ideals to ourselves. That does not make them criminal or negligent, indeed they are often honest and passionate and zealous in their cause.
What is not at issue here is the honesty or integrity of union reps in general. There may be one or two who are rogues, more driven by personal agendas than that of looking after their members best interests. I am sure most here would place DH in this camp, but did he start off that way off that way or has his ill judged actions pushed him into self interest?
You simply cannot go from the specific to the general and hope to maintain credibility. One union rep is corrupt ergo all union reps are corrupt, just makes no sense.
I despise what BASSA is doing to BA, but I do not think that the reps are malicious and corrupt. They are horribly misguided and are doing irrepparable damage to their own union but I do believe that they are passionate and committed individuals striving for what they believe in
What lies in between are those who choose to hold a different set of political ideals to ourselves. That does not make them criminal or negligent, indeed they are often honest and passionate and zealous in their cause.
What is not at issue here is the honesty or integrity of union reps in general. There may be one or two who are rogues, more driven by personal agendas than that of looking after their members best interests. I am sure most here would place DH in this camp, but did he start off that way off that way or has his ill judged actions pushed him into self interest?
You simply cannot go from the specific to the general and hope to maintain credibility. One union rep is corrupt ergo all union reps are corrupt, just makes no sense.
I despise what BASSA is doing to BA, but I do not think that the reps are malicious and corrupt. They are horribly misguided and are doing irrepparable damage to their own union but I do believe that they are passionate and committed individuals striving for what they believe in
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Litebulbs
I go back aways. When unions were driven by power hungry shop stewards and shopfloor reps. Things were dire and much harm was done. Some of that exists now if your head is in the 70's and 80's.
I am convinced that Unite is, and therefore so is BASSA, trying very hard to bring back the bad old days. As for liars and cheats: "BA are just circling 747's to make them look busy", "there are 24 jumbos parked at Cardiff" and endless other stuff on here and the CC thread. All proven to be untrue but Unite listened to them and followed, with DH pulling their strings. I probably did sound as generalising but there is a myriad of claim and counter claim based on lies. Made up tales of woe when none existed but the intention was to make it sound as rough as possible. The bitternes was not invented, it existed in the raw and in such a case it breeds more and more angst and I know from experience the breeding grounds are entrenched in these two unions and they are making it much much worse than it is.
Now we have a threat of another strike according to Unite. What for? The reinstatement of staff travel and re-instatement of the miscreant reps. Why?
That was NEVER a reason - it was created by the staff themselves. The other reasons have long gone away. They long for another strike! For God's sake why?
BA will never go down and they won't bow to either Unite or BASSA. BASSA will not win because they have dug a hole so deep that they cannot get out. But will they stop this stupidity - NO! But it WILL end that's for sure - in tears and heartbreak, broken homes and bills galore. That's what unions can do.
I do agree with the thought that McCluskey won't win the election as Gen Sec of Unite. But if not him - who?
I go back aways. When unions were driven by power hungry shop stewards and shopfloor reps. Things were dire and much harm was done. Some of that exists now if your head is in the 70's and 80's.
I am convinced that Unite is, and therefore so is BASSA, trying very hard to bring back the bad old days. As for liars and cheats: "BA are just circling 747's to make them look busy", "there are 24 jumbos parked at Cardiff" and endless other stuff on here and the CC thread. All proven to be untrue but Unite listened to them and followed, with DH pulling their strings. I probably did sound as generalising but there is a myriad of claim and counter claim based on lies. Made up tales of woe when none existed but the intention was to make it sound as rough as possible. The bitternes was not invented, it existed in the raw and in such a case it breeds more and more angst and I know from experience the breeding grounds are entrenched in these two unions and they are making it much much worse than it is.
Now we have a threat of another strike according to Unite. What for? The reinstatement of staff travel and re-instatement of the miscreant reps. Why?
That was NEVER a reason - it was created by the staff themselves. The other reasons have long gone away. They long for another strike! For God's sake why?
BA will never go down and they won't bow to either Unite or BASSA. BASSA will not win because they have dug a hole so deep that they cannot get out. But will they stop this stupidity - NO! But it WILL end that's for sure - in tears and heartbreak, broken homes and bills galore. That's what unions can do.
I do agree with the thought that McCluskey won't win the election as Gen Sec of Unite. But if not him - who?
Last edited by RTR; 31st Aug 2010 at 15:37.
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Juan Togeh
Whilst I see your point of view Juan, being a simple soul, logic dictates to me that if these people are 'misguided', indeed horribly as you put it, one has to question their collective and individual grasp of simple concepts. Suffice to say "There are none so blind as those who 'refuse' to to see" with apologies from one who knows the physical feeling.
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RTR
I understand what you are saying and no doubt there is a fair amount of truth in it. But we are not in the 70's and 80's now. Legislation is in place to prevent the wholesale return of industrial power and I see it getting more restrictive, rather than less, through the term of this Government, especially if a uberleftie gets the top job at Unite.
The two sides are in a fight and it is getting dirty, well it has been for a while. I would imagine that both sides are not going to come out of it smelling of roses, but it is obvious that one side has made a far better job of it, than the other.
The two sides are in a fight and it is getting dirty, well it has been for a while. I would imagine that both sides are not going to come out of it smelling of roses, but it is obvious that one side has made a far better job of it, than the other.
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Juan Toguh:
Regarding this statement:
With all due respect I would assert that one can be "passionate" and also "malicious".
My personal observation is that BASSA reps seem to have knowingly mislead their membership, thinking not of what harm they could be doing to the individuals they are supposed to be protecting, and more of their personal egos and positions.
I can find no other explantion for the messages submitted by Mr. Holley, the advice given by Ms. Malone, the actions during negotiations, etc., etc..
Regarding this statement:
I despise what BASSA is doing to BA, but I do not think that the reps are malicious and corrupt. They are horribly misguided and are doing irrepparable damage to their own union but I do believe that they are passionate and committed individuals striving for what they believe in
My personal observation is that BASSA reps seem to have knowingly mislead their membership, thinking not of what harm they could be doing to the individuals they are supposed to be protecting, and more of their personal egos and positions.
I can find no other explantion for the messages submitted by Mr. Holley, the advice given by Ms. Malone, the actions during negotiations, etc., etc..
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Arthur Scargill's Leadership
An indication of the NUM's membership decline is that, whereas at the time of the strike it had nearly 300,000 members, that figure is now down to about 1,500.
Francis Beckett, co-author of Marching to the Fault Line, the most recent history of the dispute, said:
"Arthur Scargill took a proud and powerful trade union, and, by sheer hubris and a failure to think through what he was doing, turned it into a shadow of its former self; he created sectarianism and gave rise to a union that was so divided that it started turning in on itself."
Neither Scargill nor the union were (sic) available for comment.
Francis Beckett, co-author of Marching to the Fault Line, the most recent history of the dispute, said:
"Arthur Scargill took a proud and powerful trade union, and, by sheer hubris and a failure to think through what he was doing, turned it into a shadow of its former self; he created sectarianism and gave rise to a union that was so divided that it started turning in on itself."
Neither Scargill nor the union were (sic) available for comment.
QED Die Fuhrer DH
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Diplome and Oneye,
I agree with you both, I was making a general point re unions. I do think that the majority of the BASSA reps are wrong but not malicious or stupid or corrupt
As the loons who write BASSAs stuff are fond of historical allusions, the situation is akin to Europe in the thirties where the intelligent, politically aware saw the choice as either facism or communism. Neither proved to be the correct choice but at the time that is all anyone could see. This dispute has caused a polarization of opinion, it does not mean that one side is right and the other wrong merely that they reflect each other.
As I said in my opening lines there are some that are obviously both corrupt and malicious, sadly for BASSA they are the ones that are pulling the strings. Unions have, in the UK, been an incredible force for good - furthering workers rights and protecting the health and safety, and fighting for recompense when required. However, they became too powerful thinking that they ran the manufacturing industries of Britain and their actions effectively destroyed these industries. The unions through good intentions destroyed the jobs they were fighting for, shipbuilding is a classic example of this.
Yet those very unions that destroyed shipbuilding were trying to provide safety and security in long term jobs. The union leaders were acting with the best of intentions but with limited vision, certainly they had no strategic vision. All of the same can be said of BASSA. As to all their reps being malicious and corrupt, I think you are overstating the case. It is certain that DH has a massive vested interest in not settling on the current deal as he will remain out of a job if he does, he has to fight for reps to be re-instated. He has also proven himself to be petty minded. LM, by allowing him to continue with his drivel, is also be suspect, but then where does that put TW and DS - they have also stood by while DH has bullied.
Ultimately all of this means, I suppose, that this is not a simple matter that can be condensed into a few soundbites.
I agree with you both, I was making a general point re unions. I do think that the majority of the BASSA reps are wrong but not malicious or stupid or corrupt
As the loons who write BASSAs stuff are fond of historical allusions, the situation is akin to Europe in the thirties where the intelligent, politically aware saw the choice as either facism or communism. Neither proved to be the correct choice but at the time that is all anyone could see. This dispute has caused a polarization of opinion, it does not mean that one side is right and the other wrong merely that they reflect each other.
As I said in my opening lines there are some that are obviously both corrupt and malicious, sadly for BASSA they are the ones that are pulling the strings. Unions have, in the UK, been an incredible force for good - furthering workers rights and protecting the health and safety, and fighting for recompense when required. However, they became too powerful thinking that they ran the manufacturing industries of Britain and their actions effectively destroyed these industries. The unions through good intentions destroyed the jobs they were fighting for, shipbuilding is a classic example of this.
Yet those very unions that destroyed shipbuilding were trying to provide safety and security in long term jobs. The union leaders were acting with the best of intentions but with limited vision, certainly they had no strategic vision. All of the same can be said of BASSA. As to all their reps being malicious and corrupt, I think you are overstating the case. It is certain that DH has a massive vested interest in not settling on the current deal as he will remain out of a job if he does, he has to fight for reps to be re-instated. He has also proven himself to be petty minded. LM, by allowing him to continue with his drivel, is also be suspect, but then where does that put TW and DS - they have also stood by while DH has bullied.
Ultimately all of this means, I suppose, that this is not a simple matter that can be condensed into a few soundbites.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 31st Aug 2010 at 17:48.
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call100
The Mail, The Telegraph, The Guardian, you may not like, but they report what they report whether it is true or not. Its been said and that’s what we 'listen to' - like it or not
Very true.
Anyway, I am afraid I draw the line at responding to sarcastic twaddle. Clearly you are not capable of holding a debate without resorting to snide. We have had enough of that. Not for me thanks.
The Mail, The Telegraph, The Guardian, you may not like, but they report what they report whether it is true or not. Its been said and that’s what we 'listen to' - like it or not
Very true.
Anyway, I am afraid I draw the line at responding to sarcastic twaddle. Clearly you are not capable of holding a debate without resorting to snide. We have had enough of that. Not for me thanks.
Anyway, to move on.....I'm not sure that there is any leadership within BASSA. Too many 'reps' are making individual statements and responding on forums and nothing seems to be joined up.
I've never been involved in negotiations or IA where we would have allowed the maverick actions that BASSA reps seem to indulge in.
There are checks and balances to ensure IA is a last resort. Something has broken down and needs fixing ASAP.
I agree that it's either fixed or BASSA will cease to exist by attrition. Hopefully someone will step forward and take the flak and turn it around....Slim hope, but, there is still time, just.
Last edited by call100; 31st Aug 2010 at 16:35.