BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
Junior trash
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I believe that it would save time. If it went to arbitration before an ET, then there is no right of appeal, it ends there.
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As far as all these suspensions are concerned if someone really can be bothered (I can’t currently) BASSA were foolish enough to detail a great long list of the various alleged transactions that have lead to the topic in hand. I specifically recall this as it was reproduced on this site and I printed it out (3 pages) and took it on a journey with me as some light reading with some friends for their amusement..!
They were far from minor matters in my view including written threats to blow slides, serious breaches of confidentially (VCC lists being passed about), acts of outright aggression towards other BA staff members, porn web sites etc – I remember wondering why BASSA released it as I didn’t think that it would generate sympathy from any reader.
I for one will not be particularly surprised that someone dismissed for threatening to blow a slide for example wouldn’t bother with a tribunal…
It’s also the case remember that the vast number of suspended staff are back at work with I assume no action or a warning at most?
They were far from minor matters in my view including written threats to blow slides, serious breaches of confidentially (VCC lists being passed about), acts of outright aggression towards other BA staff members, porn web sites etc – I remember wondering why BASSA released it as I didn’t think that it would generate sympathy from any reader.
I for one will not be particularly surprised that someone dismissed for threatening to blow a slide for example wouldn’t bother with a tribunal…
It’s also the case remember that the vast number of suspended staff are back at work with I assume no action or a warning at most?
ET in the South East
IMHO - There have probably been no ETs for sacked BA CC staff (in the context of this dispute).
The TW postcode (LHR) holds ETs at Reading. The UB post code (Water in Brains) holds ETs at Watford. Both Reading and Watford have months and months of delays.
My daughter is awaiting a date for an ET at Reading. Her claim was submitted last November - about 10 months ago, well before the BA sackings..
I believe that DH did not go to a full ET. I have not looked it up, but I believe it was some interim measure to ask for immediate re-instatement.
I'm sure that the Sun and the Mail will keep its readers up to date should any of the Heritage CSDs take BA to a Tribunal.
The TW postcode (LHR) holds ETs at Reading. The UB post code (Water in Brains) holds ETs at Watford. Both Reading and Watford have months and months of delays.
My daughter is awaiting a date for an ET at Reading. Her claim was submitted last November - about 10 months ago, well before the BA sackings..
I believe that DH did not go to a full ET. I have not looked it up, but I believe it was some interim measure to ask for immediate re-instatement.
I'm sure that the Sun and the Mail will keep its readers up to date should any of the Heritage CSDs take BA to a Tribunal.
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I don't quite see how you drew that conclusion from what Fincastle said, as essentially he said the same as me.
Shall I spell it out? It is my sincere opinion that the reason none of these people are going to employment tribunals is because they would all be thrown out on their arses.
Clear enough?
Do you have any alternative theory? Or do you subscribe to Litebulb's view that the procedure itself, despite being perfectly acceptable to both sides prior to this dispute, apparently has now conveniently become "flawed"?
Shall I spell it out? It is my sincere opinion that the reason none of these people are going to employment tribunals is because they would all be thrown out on their arses.
Clear enough?
Do you have any alternative theory? Or do you subscribe to Litebulb's view that the procedure itself, despite being perfectly acceptable to both sides prior to this dispute, apparently has now conveniently become "flawed"?
As for the BA cases, they may have been unfair or not. That is to be decided by others involved. If the Union lawyers (who make the decision to proceed) think they have a case then they will go forward........Until then, it's pointless stabbing in the dark...
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It was a direct reply to his assumption that because it was an agreed process and HR were involved that it was automatically fair.
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ChicoG - I agree with what AO has stated. I have spent a fair amount of time searching for an ET case for DH and have not found it. But if you have seen evidence of a fair dismissal, is it in the public domain?
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Not a final result by any means, but previously posted here:
Which implies to me that it's more than likely that he will fail at tribunal if he bothers going that far - something else I'm not sure about.
Duncan Holley's application to Watford Employment Tribunal for reinstatement was dismissed today. Holley had applied to be reinstated pending a full hearing of his unfair dismissal claim against BA claiming that the sole or principal reason for his dismissal was his trade union membership and activities. He asked the Tribunal to order the continuation of his employment pending a full hearing of his case. BA claimed that the reason for the dismissal was Holley's refusal to go to work when rostered on a number of times in December.
Judge Ryan denied the request saying he felt it was more likely than not that BA would demonstrate at trial that Mr Holley's dismissal was because of his refusal to come to work to perform his rostered duties and his refusal to attend meetings with his manager. Amongst other things he said "The claimant is simply not entitled to take into his own hands the decision whether to work or not".
Judge Ryan denied the request saying he felt it was more likely than not that BA would demonstrate at trial that Mr Holley's dismissal was because of his refusal to come to work to perform his rostered duties and his refusal to attend meetings with his manager. Amongst other things he said "The claimant is simply not entitled to take into his own hands the decision whether to work or not".
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"A massive industrial dispute, not seen since the 1970's if you believe what you read on here."
Or a hissy fit orchestrated by an incompetent union that has failed miserably to represent the interests of its' members.
Also if you believe what you read on here.
Or a hissy fit orchestrated by an incompetent union that has failed miserably to represent the interests of its' members.
Also if you believe what you read on here.
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Whilst looking, found this:
Good luck with that one, Holley.
And ironically, given that we are discussing the schism between Unite and BASSA:
Branch secretary Duncan Holley, said: 'We are looking for the green light for a strike ballot next week, which would encompass the Christmas period and there is every likelihood we will be out then.'
The dispute was originally over BA's 'survival' plans to slash costs. Most of the key issues have since been resolved over months of gruelling negotiations.
But the Unite union said the suspensions and sackings were unjustified. It warned that a renewed strike ballot was 'inevitable' unless there was a swift resolution of issues.
BA said the vast majority of staff who had been suspended were now back at work, although at least 13 have been sacked for 'serious cases of misconduct', subject to appeal.
It comes ahead of a mass meeting of BA cabin crew at Kempton Park race course near Sunbury-on-Thames next Monday, September 6.
BA was up 1.2p at 211p.
The dispute was originally over BA's 'survival' plans to slash costs. Most of the key issues have since been resolved over months of gruelling negotiations.
But the Unite union said the suspensions and sackings were unjustified. It warned that a renewed strike ballot was 'inevitable' unless there was a swift resolution of issues.
BA said the vast majority of staff who had been suspended were now back at work, although at least 13 have been sacked for 'serious cases of misconduct', subject to appeal.
It comes ahead of a mass meeting of BA cabin crew at Kempton Park race course near Sunbury-on-Thames next Monday, September 6.
BA was up 1.2p at 211p.
And ironically, given that we are discussing the schism between Unite and BASSA:
British Airways’ cabin crew union, Unite, said talks will take place next week to try to end the long-running dispute with the airline.
A spokesman for Unite said talks were being planned for next week but it could not specify the day.
He denied reports that the union was planning to ballot for more strike action over the half-term holidays or at Christmas.
“There are no plans for any strike ballots as we’re still trying to resolve the outstanding issues,” he said.”
A spokesman for Unite said talks were being planned for next week but it could not specify the day.
He denied reports that the union was planning to ballot for more strike action over the half-term holidays or at Christmas.
“There are no plans for any strike ballots as we’re still trying to resolve the outstanding issues,” he said.”
Last edited by ChicoG; 2nd Sep 2010 at 12:33.
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As an individual who has attended numerous Arbitrations regarding different issues I can state that, in my opinion, they most certainly do add another layer to any procedure.
The question isn't one of "...if you have nothing to hide, why not?" but more "..if you are following an agreed upon procedure that has worked consistently in the past, why?".
We are speaking of only 12/13 individuals here, with no public protest providing specifics of unfairness. Even Mr. Holley made a public statement that he made a conscious decision to repeatedly not report for rostered duty.
To create a separate class of employee based upon their Union membership is inappropriate and unnecessary.
The question isn't one of "...if you have nothing to hide, why not?" but more "..if you are following an agreed upon procedure that has worked consistently in the past, why?".
We are speaking of only 12/13 individuals here, with no public protest providing specifics of unfairness. Even Mr. Holley made a public statement that he made a conscious decision to repeatedly not report for rostered duty.
To create a separate class of employee based upon their Union membership is inappropriate and unnecessary.
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Acas - The Acas Arbitration Scheme
Whether this is what Unite had in mind, or just mediation in existing company processes, is where I may have misread the situation.
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From the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act;
Perhaps the outcome of the full hearing will depend on whether the judge feels that DH was taking part in industrial action when he refused to work.
Dave
(1) An employer shall permit an employee of his who is a member of an independent trade union recognised by the employer in respect of that description of employee to take time off during his working hours for the purpose of taking part in—
(a) any activities of the union, and
(b) any activities in relation to which the employee is acting as a representative of the union.
(2) The right conferred by subsection (1) does not extend to activities which themselves consist of industrial action, whether or not in contemplation or furtherance of a trade dispute.
(a) any activities of the union, and
(b) any activities in relation to which the employee is acting as a representative of the union.
(2) The right conferred by subsection (1) does not extend to activities which themselves consist of industrial action, whether or not in contemplation or furtherance of a trade dispute.
Dave
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An employer shall permit an employee of his who is a member of an independent trade union recognised by the employer in respect of that description of employee to take time off during his working hours for the purpose of taking part in—
(a) any activities of the union, and
(b) any activities in relation to which the employee is acting as a representative of the union.
(a) any activities of the union, and
(b) any activities in relation to which the employee is acting as a representative of the union.
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Litebulbs:
I may be mistaken, and will have to do some searching, but I seem to remember that what Unite wanted was an Acas representation present as an observer during the BA proceedings.
I'll see what I can find later...but I don't believe that Unite was asking for an ACAS arbitration process to replace the BA process.
I may be mistaken, and will have to do some searching, but I seem to remember that what Unite wanted was an Acas representation present as an observer during the BA proceedings.
I'll see what I can find later...but I don't believe that Unite was asking for an ACAS arbitration process to replace the BA process.
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The issue with Duncan taking time off arose after BASSA decided to withdraw from all the company forums, apart from health and safety. In Duncan's messages about his suspension he has made it clear that he thinks that union duties take precedence over the job he is employed to do and he hadn't done himself any favours in handing evidence to BA on a plate for his hearing next year.
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The issue with Duncan taking time off arose after BASSA decided to withdraw from all the company forums, apart from health and safety. In Duncan's messages about his suspension he has made it clear that he thinks that union duties take precedence over the job he is employed to do and he hadn't done himself any favours in handing evidence to BA on a plate for his hearing next year.