BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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As I understand it, crew wishing to accept BA's latest offer had to provide a certificate to the effect they were not union members at the date the offer was declared. As BA have played this whole thing with a straight bat, I'm convinced they would not want to be seen enciting union members to accept the offer outside the collective bargaining unit.
Now, I have little doubt some will have done so and perhaps been a little economic with the accualite. Even so, their certificate will enable the company to keep its hands clean if they did.
Now, I have little doubt some will have done so and perhaps been a little economic with the accualite. Even so, their certificate will enable the company to keep its hands clean if they did.
A Sky News reporter outside Unite HQ says she has spoken to a senior official of the union. When asked why so few had voted they stated that, those that didn't vote were not affected by the staff travel dispute so stepped aside to let their colleagues express their opinion. So the spin goes on.
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Tony Woodley
According to Tony Woodley 85% of CC have voted no to the BA offer. I've always suspected that he isn't the brightest but he has now confirmed that he is totally stupid!
Moving on, as Mr Walsh obviously isn't going to change his mind as to what is on offer, then presumably there will be yet another ballot for IA. Will the Bassa lemmings finally realise that the game is over or is that just wishful thinking?
Moving on, as Mr Walsh obviously isn't going to change his mind as to what is on offer, then presumably there will be yet another ballot for IA. Will the Bassa lemmings finally realise that the game is over or is that just wishful thinking?
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Abstention
It's interesting how people can put slants on votes like this. If the vote was No - 3,449, Accept - 1,686, Abstain - 4,622 (based on a quoted membership of 9,757 from above) then possibilities are:
"Only 17% of members voted to accept"
"83% of members did not accept the offer"
"65% of members did not vote to reject the offer"
"Only 35% of members voted against the offer"
"67% of votes cast were to reject the offer"
"Only 33% of votes were to accept the offer"
Pick whatever suits your agenda and run with it
FWIW (and I have no brief for BASSA whatsoever) I've very little time for abstentions and am generally of the view that if you abstain then you are implicitly accepting the decision of those who bother to vote.
This ballot says to me that 67% of those with an opinion they can be bothered to register don't accept the offer. Quite why they don't, and quite why nearly half of the membership of a union branch involved in an acrimonious dispute can't be bothered to vote are both beyond me.
Own goal from the abstainers IMHO.
"Only 17% of members voted to accept"
"83% of members did not accept the offer"
"65% of members did not vote to reject the offer"
"Only 35% of members voted against the offer"
"67% of votes cast were to reject the offer"
"Only 33% of votes were to accept the offer"
Pick whatever suits your agenda and run with it
FWIW (and I have no brief for BASSA whatsoever) I've very little time for abstentions and am generally of the view that if you abstain then you are implicitly accepting the decision of those who bother to vote.
This ballot says to me that 67% of those with an opinion they can be bothered to register don't accept the offer. Quite why they don't, and quite why nearly half of the membership of a union branch involved in an acrimonious dispute can't be bothered to vote are both beyond me.
Own goal from the abstainers IMHO.
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Regarding the branch secretary, why didn't he just go on strike? Then he would have had all the time in the world to fulfill his union duties AND show his support for his "comrades".
What's that I hear you say?
What's that I hear you say?
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I think BA have made every effort to engage in meaningful discussions, but they could not sit around and wait for BASSA to "grow up" as you put it. They were haemorrhaging cash and needed to make cost cuts.
If BASSA had played ball to start with, the current situation would not exist.
They want to return things to the way they were. BA do not want to, and they are correct.
The only people that need to group up here are the BASSA reps that have lead their staff so poorly.
If, as you say, there are reps who feel this could have been sorted out a long time ago, they should communicate that fact to their fellow members and try and oust the idiots that have made so many pathetic mistakes in their desperate attempts at clinging on to power (and, lest we forget, their share of the members' subscriptions).
If BASSA had played ball to start with, the current situation would not exist.
They want to return things to the way they were. BA do not want to, and they are correct.
The only people that need to group up here are the BASSA reps that have lead their staff so poorly.
If, as you say, there are reps who feel this could have been sorted out a long time ago, they should communicate that fact to their fellow members and try and oust the idiots that have made so many pathetic mistakes in their desperate attempts at clinging on to power (and, lest we forget, their share of the members' subscriptions).
If BA had played ball the dispute would not have happened, easy statements to make. Your one sided view is just as appalling as BASSA's.
Both sides had some very valid points. Had two different sets of people been around the table the dispute would not have escalated.
You will never accept this as your attitude is entrenched as those you condemn. You will never understand the moderate argument any more than a BASSA rep. Equally you will never accept that BA have not been the shining light you think they are. Which is why I said we should agree to disagree....
Paxing All Over The World
In this report: BBC News - BA cabin crew reject latest pay offer
Tony Woodley: "This is now a wake-up call for Willie Walsh"
May I politely suggest to Mr Woodley that Mr Walsh woke up some time ago ...
The Union still seems to be of the view that it is only WW that is against them, yet the Board of mgmt have hired him and declared their support. All the other working groups have renegotiated. I ran out of words several 'astonisheds' and 'gobsmackeds' ago. Luckily, I am not going to be using BA for the rest of this year.
Tony Woodley: "This is now a wake-up call for Willie Walsh"
May I politely suggest to Mr Woodley that Mr Walsh woke up some time ago ...
The Union still seems to be of the view that it is only WW that is against them, yet the Board of mgmt have hired him and declared their support. All the other working groups have renegotiated. I ran out of words several 'astonisheds' and 'gobsmackeds' ago. Luckily, I am not going to be using BA for the rest of this year.
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Is there any way of finding out what is the true (audited) membership figure for BASSA?
We hear that 12500+ were sent ballot papers – BASSA’s site state they have 9750+ members, one presumes the other 2750 were AMICUS members.
Duggie Fashion on the other thread “This was merely a consultative ballot and the reason for the low return was probably due to many people not receiving or returning their ballot papers in time.
I live in Germany and only received my ballot 5 days ago.”
Surely the idea of any ballot is that all members can participate!
3419 voted no to reject the offer
1686 voted to accept
12600 cabin crew in total – 7459 did not vote.
I find it very strange that in a dispute such as this so many people would abstain from voting – your jobs are on the line – I cannot believe you would not cast your vote.
How many cabin crew do not belong to the union – add that to the total who voted to accept.
We hear that 12500+ were sent ballot papers – BASSA’s site state they have 9750+ members, one presumes the other 2750 were AMICUS members.
Duggie Fashion on the other thread “This was merely a consultative ballot and the reason for the low return was probably due to many people not receiving or returning their ballot papers in time.
I live in Germany and only received my ballot 5 days ago.”
Surely the idea of any ballot is that all members can participate!
3419 voted no to reject the offer
1686 voted to accept
12600 cabin crew in total – 7459 did not vote.
I find it very strange that in a dispute such as this so many people would abstain from voting – your jobs are on the line – I cannot believe you would not cast your vote.
How many cabin crew do not belong to the union – add that to the total who voted to accept.
A new "front"?
Can't see this has been reported here: Racism claim opens new front in BA dispute | Business | The Guardian another variant British Airways (LON:BAY) Ballot Out Today
To summarise "CrewDefense" have filed a discrimination suit because they've had to give up living in Scotland, USA etc and move nearer to Heathrow.
To summarise "CrewDefense" have filed a discrimination suit because they've had to give up living in Scotland, USA etc and move nearer to Heathrow.
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Of the 3419 that voted to reject the offer how many will be willing to go on strike? The question is not how many will vote to strike but how many will actually be willing to strike. 50% ? Add to the normal loss of pay striking this time may result in the loss of your employment.
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100 Academics
On that other forum, the current Bassa troll is claiming the "support of 100 academics," railing about Union busting.
Academics? Many young folk espouse Socialist ideals, then, as life experience grows, become more practical. The cloistered academic, with no real experience of life outside academe, does not mature in quite the same way.
One wonders how many of these Dons with unsaleable degrees will soon be be forced out into the real world for the first time in their lives?
Academics? Many young folk espouse Socialist ideals, then, as life experience grows, become more practical. The cloistered academic, with no real experience of life outside academe, does not mature in quite the same way.
One wonders how many of these Dons with unsaleable degrees will soon be be forced out into the real world for the first time in their lives?
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Duggie:
Strange that: He gives his location as UK. I wonder if this is another of the many inaccuracies in his posts.
compared with:......
Didn't the offer made in June LAST YEAR match that of other departments? including a share offer? If it was good enough to be a "much sweeter" offer to the other departments, how come Bassa rejected it without even consulting their members?
“This was merely a consultative ballot and the reason for the low return was probably due to many people not receiving or returning their ballot papers in time.
I live in Germany and only received my ballot 5 days ago.”
I live in Germany and only received my ballot 5 days ago.”
What I find touching here is that somehow the pilots, engineers and other groundstaff who are cheering Willie on, seem to think that they will be immune from his attentions later on? If he beats the cabin crew, the rest of you will simply roll over and get it where the sun don't shine.
Other departments settled because they were offered a much sweeter deal than cabin crew. Have you got new employees coming in on new contracts with much lower pay and inverior T&C's? No I didn't think so.
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What would be interesting to know is how many people signed and returned the individual offers that BA sent to all cabin crew. Only BA knows the answer to this, and I suspect they're not going to share with the rest of us. However, given the large number of non-voters in the Union ballot, I'd have a small bet that large numbers of actual Union members have accepted the deal as individuals, signed the "I wasn't in the Union, honest" declaration, and sent back to BA. If this is the case, then why would they bother voting in the Union ballot? Indeed, if they did they'd be at greater risk of losing the deal if Unite could show they'd done this when they're really subject to the collective agreement. I guess the accuracy of my theory will become apparent if and when Unite ballots for more strikes.
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An alternative explanation
It could be that the poor response was due to the number of cabin crew who were
a) on leave
b) live overseas and did not recieve their ballot papers in sufficient time to be able to return them in the time available
c) did not return their votes in sufficient time to make the deadline.
or the fact that they were incapable of putting an x in a box
I'm not sure who was charged with sending out the ballot papers, the union or the body charged with counting the results. One thing that is certain is that Unite sent out more ballot papers than they have members.
a) on leave
b) live overseas and did not recieve their ballot papers in sufficient time to be able to return them in the time available
c) did not return their votes in sufficient time to make the deadline.
or the fact that they were incapable of putting an x in a box
I'm not sure who was charged with sending out the ballot papers, the union or the body charged with counting the results. One thing that is certain is that Unite sent out more ballot papers than they have members.
Last edited by Colonel White; 20th Jul 2010 at 22:05. Reason: missed a bit
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Compulsory reply to ballots or VOID
Once again I post this annomaly
I left the Union when I changed from engineer to clerk About ten years ago
It was TGWU, then I belive Amicus, which changed to Unite
The last BA IA I was asked to renew my fees ?
Last week I wa again asked to renew my fees
Now for ten years I have not had a peep out of them, Yet now they are asking for money
They must be needing mugs cash I think
At the moment I am stuck between a rock and a hard place
My employer HMRC is going beyond the pale, with T&C constructive dismissals to meet reduced staffing levels
The Union are beyond the pale with their demands in the current climate
I am in the Union because I am seriously afraid of dismissal, when absent through illness (rule abscent more than twice a year either one day or five each time or OR absent more than ten working days at once)
Or UNION wanting more than any normal person would request in current climes
I do vote, but it is lost amongst the abstainers 3000 yes IA 2500 no IA 20000 did not bother
Then you have the ones who do not join the Union pay nothing but get all the benefits others have forfeited income for
Sheesh what a world
I have only done three Long distance (to me! Dubai) return BA flights this year ECONOMY and the best was on a strike day, even after the aprehension of not getting to my destination on time
All were good, just the strike day, was more pleasant, staff doing that little bit extra than tea coffee You For COFFEE
Jack McH
I left the Union when I changed from engineer to clerk About ten years ago
It was TGWU, then I belive Amicus, which changed to Unite
The last BA IA I was asked to renew my fees ?
Last week I wa again asked to renew my fees
Now for ten years I have not had a peep out of them, Yet now they are asking for money
They must be needing mugs cash I think
At the moment I am stuck between a rock and a hard place
My employer HMRC is going beyond the pale, with T&C constructive dismissals to meet reduced staffing levels
The Union are beyond the pale with their demands in the current climate
I am in the Union because I am seriously afraid of dismissal, when absent through illness (rule abscent more than twice a year either one day or five each time or OR absent more than ten working days at once)
Or UNION wanting more than any normal person would request in current climes
I do vote, but it is lost amongst the abstainers 3000 yes IA 2500 no IA 20000 did not bother
Then you have the ones who do not join the Union pay nothing but get all the benefits others have forfeited income for
Sheesh what a world
I have only done three Long distance (to me! Dubai) return BA flights this year ECONOMY and the best was on a strike day, even after the aprehension of not getting to my destination on time
All were good, just the strike day, was more pleasant, staff doing that little bit extra than tea coffee You For COFFEE
Jack McH
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Call100:
Had ONE different set of people been one side of the table, the dispute would not have escalated.
Bear in mind the crux of this was the issue of working one down, something Gatwick have managed to do without any problem.
This dispute is a result of (a) BA having to make cost cuts, which IMHO they tried to do without pay cuts, compulsory redundancies, etc. and (b) the LHR BASSA reps who basically had no intention of giving an inch.
But yes, we should agree to disagree.
Had two different sets of people been around the table the dispute would not have escalated.
Bear in mind the crux of this was the issue of working one down, something Gatwick have managed to do without any problem.
This dispute is a result of (a) BA having to make cost cuts, which IMHO they tried to do without pay cuts, compulsory redundancies, etc. and (b) the LHR BASSA reps who basically had no intention of giving an inch.
But yes, we should agree to disagree.
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JMacHL said:-
Then you have the ones who do not join the Union pay nothing but get all the benefits others have forfeited income for
Then you have the ones who do not join the Union pay nothing but get all the benefits others have forfeited income for
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Theory
Regarding the very high numbers of none voters for the very important consultative ballot on the offer.
If i was a BASSA member who did not believe in the stance being taken, it is concievable that I may have signed the individual offer sent to my from BA (stating i was not a union member) And when the ballot papers arrived simply threw them away, allowing me to hand on heart say i did not vote (true) because i had resigned form the union <pick a date>.
When questioned regarding continued payments to the union i would look astonished and outraged." I never noticed, im gonna ring them immediately and put a flea in their ear". If questioned regarding the apparent lack of communication indicating a desire to remove myself from the union. I would firmly explain the phone call, email, letter of such and such date was sufficient and if they couldn't find it or didn't act on it, well, it sort of reinforces my reasons for leaving such a shambolic union. Of course if not questioned I would find it prudent to "discover my continued membership" and inform the union toot sweet .
Now who would BA believe? the person wanting to sign a new contract and work for them or the rabble intent on damaging the company?
Oh and I would be joining PCCC if for nothing else to be kept upto date on whats happening.
If i was a BASSA member who did not believe in the stance being taken, it is concievable that I may have signed the individual offer sent to my from BA (stating i was not a union member) And when the ballot papers arrived simply threw them away, allowing me to hand on heart say i did not vote (true) because i had resigned form the union <pick a date>.
When questioned regarding continued payments to the union i would look astonished and outraged." I never noticed, im gonna ring them immediately and put a flea in their ear". If questioned regarding the apparent lack of communication indicating a desire to remove myself from the union. I would firmly explain the phone call, email, letter of such and such date was sufficient and if they couldn't find it or didn't act on it, well, it sort of reinforces my reasons for leaving such a shambolic union. Of course if not questioned I would find it prudent to "discover my continued membership" and inform the union toot sweet .
Now who would BA believe? the person wanting to sign a new contract and work for them or the rabble intent on damaging the company?
Oh and I would be joining PCCC if for nothing else to be kept upto date on whats happening.
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Travelling on BA
Dear Duncan / Duggie
I'm travelling LHR - SIN on 22 August. Please call a strike for that date so that I can travel with CC who actually want to be there.
Cheers!
Julia
I'm travelling LHR - SIN on 22 August. Please call a strike for that date so that I can travel with CC who actually want to be there.
Cheers!
Julia
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Brand new to this thread but I have read the other thread from the very start and as someone on the outside of this dispute I am rather disheartened with what I read.
It would seem that the BA CC fall into 3 distinct groups, BASSA hardliners, BASSA sheep and the BASSA timid. I know that is an gross over simplification of a very complex situation but sat on the outside it's what appears to be the case.
Based on the latest figures it would seem the BASSA timid are, and probably always have been, in the majority so for the life of me I cannot understand why those at the helm of the PCCC are not jumping up and down identifying themselves. This would give all those BASSA timid and other non union CC members a beacon to head for and send a real message to the minority of hardliners that there is a real alternative.
No offence was intended for the use of the word timid and I apologise in advance but I could not really think of another suitable descriptor
It would seem that the BA CC fall into 3 distinct groups, BASSA hardliners, BASSA sheep and the BASSA timid. I know that is an gross over simplification of a very complex situation but sat on the outside it's what appears to be the case.
Based on the latest figures it would seem the BASSA timid are, and probably always have been, in the majority so for the life of me I cannot understand why those at the helm of the PCCC are not jumping up and down identifying themselves. This would give all those BASSA timid and other non union CC members a beacon to head for and send a real message to the minority of hardliners that there is a real alternative.
No offence was intended for the use of the word timid and I apologise in advance but I could not really think of another suitable descriptor