BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
pj67coll, you do not mention in which cabin you were sitting and service expectation is directly related.
We had chosen BA as they had the only direct flight between Phoenix and London but for both of us 10 hours in an economy seat is proably too much.
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This thread is concerned with the Cabin Crew strike at BA and not with the perceived skills of pilots at BA.
The wonderful thing about your perceptions is that they are your own, and personal and cannot be argued with. That said, it is wise to consider carefully before posting. The 'analysis' above of the two landings is subjective and based on faulty assumptions, a shortage of knowledge and a failure to understand what knowledge exists. The only indisputable fact is that the writer was alarmed.
Some research on posts in this, and other forums on PPRuNe will reveal the accepted position that a seat in the cabin and a degree of previous experience of flying as a passenger are not the appropriate criteria for judging the quality of a landing - or indeed any technical aspect of a flight.
The wonderful thing about your perceptions is that they are your own, and personal and cannot be argued with. That said, it is wise to consider carefully before posting. The 'analysis' above of the two landings is subjective and based on faulty assumptions, a shortage of knowledge and a failure to understand what knowledge exists. The only indisputable fact is that the writer was alarmed.
Some research on posts in this, and other forums on PPRuNe will reveal the accepted position that a seat in the cabin and a degree of previous experience of flying as a passenger are not the appropriate criteria for judging the quality of a landing - or indeed any technical aspect of a flight.
Mr Everard cannot have been dismissed for starting a website with the name pccc and posting porn on it.
Posting porn on the internet is not illegal in itself and BA does not own PCCC (I hope) so why did he get dismissed?
As someone who deals with a lot of disciplinaries, you can sack anyone for anything at any time quite legally. The issue however is whether a tribunal would feel the dismissal was unfair (note NOT unlawful).
So in ME's case BA can dismiss for whatever reason they choose.
Posting porn on the internet is not illegal in itself and BA does not own PCCC (I hope) so why did he get dismissed?
As someone who deals with a lot of disciplinaries, you can sack anyone for anything at any time quite legally. The issue however is whether a tribunal would feel the dismissal was unfair (note NOT unlawful).
So in ME's case BA can dismiss for whatever reason they choose.
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Regarding Mr E and a comment about posting porn, ie, it is not illegal to do so.
I would take a look at The Obscene Publications Act 1959.
I would very much doubt expert witness' are available as to its literary, artistic or scientific merits.
Just because its there and readily accessible does not mean it is not illegal. That's the problem with the tinterweb, what is legal in one country ir likely highly illegal in another country where it is viewed.
I would take a look at The Obscene Publications Act 1959.
I would very much doubt expert witness' are available as to its literary, artistic or scientific merits.
Just because its there and readily accessible does not mean it is not illegal. That's the problem with the tinterweb, what is legal in one country ir likely highly illegal in another country where it is viewed.
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The way BASSA described his actions were those of "offending a few of his fellow employees" or suchlike.
I would suggest that posting pornographic images with the deliberate intention of demeaning the PCCC, which clearly identified itself as being the website of responsible BA cabin crew, can at least be considered disgusting, rather than being "offensive".
And in doing so, I would argue that he is surely bringing the company's name into disrepute, which I assume is in breach of his contract.
No sympathy whatsoever. In fact I think he's a five star, fur-lined, ocean going idiot.
I would suggest that posting pornographic images with the deliberate intention of demeaning the PCCC, which clearly identified itself as being the website of responsible BA cabin crew, can at least be considered disgusting, rather than being "offensive".
And in doing so, I would argue that he is surely bringing the company's name into disrepute, which I assume is in breach of his contract.
No sympathy whatsoever. In fact I think he's a five star, fur-lined, ocean going idiot.
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Further, on the AGM votes, every single vote was over 90% in favour, including 99.73% voting to approve the report and the accounts.
I'm sure if they'd done one of loudmouthed, uncouth heckling, BASSA would have won hands down.
I'm sure if they'd done one of loudmouthed, uncouth heckling, BASSA would have won hands down.
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MONTGOLFIER.Of course. Too used to seeing C17s and C5's in heavy crosswinds in this neck of the woods. Wing down is very common . Didn't think re low wings.
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Unfair or wrongful dismissal is not legal. You can be wrongfully fairly dismissed and visa versa. One breaches common law, the other statute. Both are unlawful, in my opinion. However, I am only too willing to learn, so please explain where I may be wrong.
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Litebulbs, you are correctly picking him up on the use of the word legally, poor choice of words on his part. The message is however correct, in that an employer can sack however they like, just like a thief can steal from whom ever he likes, a price may need to be paid for both actions however, or not!
In the case of Mr Everard however and as someone who also has to (unfortunately) deal with a lot of disciplinary processes this would have been an easy one. The facts that we are aware of alone (there could well be other transgressions) would have certainly been enough. This chap linked both himself and his employer (and less importantly in my view the PCCC) to a web site presenting pornography. His continued employment was certainly in jeopardy from that point in.
As a Union rep yourself I’m sure that you wouldn’t consider his actions as being wise or productive to say the least. Indeed I’m surprised that a professional union hadn’t sacked him as a representative themselves long before BA were required to take action.
In the case of Mr Everard however and as someone who also has to (unfortunately) deal with a lot of disciplinary processes this would have been an easy one. The facts that we are aware of alone (there could well be other transgressions) would have certainly been enough. This chap linked both himself and his employer (and less importantly in my view the PCCC) to a web site presenting pornography. His continued employment was certainly in jeopardy from that point in.
As a Union rep yourself I’m sure that you wouldn’t consider his actions as being wise or productive to say the least. Indeed I’m surprised that a professional union hadn’t sacked him as a representative themselves long before BA were required to take action.
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From the other forum: DUGGIE FASHION
Apologies, still don't know how to link posts...
I find this highly offensive to our troops, ground and air, that are serving in the Afghan and Iraq theatres. Not to mention all those that fell at the Somme!
BA CC are not in the same class as the basic soldier on the ground or Airman in the air in any theatre.
In recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan ( and many before that), when a General's strategy has failed he is replaced with someone who has new ideas. You do not continue with a failed policy, waste more materials or expend more lives, because a leader is unable to admit personal failure. All Walsh can do now is prepare for war once again with his VCC foot soldiers pressed into action under the propaganda banner of "Backing BA". It is a strategy bogged down in another Somme like era.
BA CC are not in the same class as the basic soldier on the ground or Airman in the air in any theatre.
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Winch-control:
It's just more of the "same old same old" rhetoric that we have seen from the more militant members of BASSA used to deflect the fact that their arguments are rather empty of facts and very high in hyperbole.
I note that many members of the CC thread are trying to reason with this individual and will give them kudos for their efforts however its an exercise in futility.
Duggie Fashion is just another, in a long line of "new posters" on the Cabin Crew thread, there to repeat memorized lines and knee-jerk responses.
It would be nice if all of the references to BALPA could be eliminated as it just muddies the waters and has no more relevance to Cabin Crew and BASSA than the actions taken by the AFL-CIO.
BASSA and their supporters should debate regarding their issues rather than try to deflect from substantive responses by squealing "BALPA" at every opportunity.
It's just more of the "same old same old" rhetoric that we have seen from the more militant members of BASSA used to deflect the fact that their arguments are rather empty of facts and very high in hyperbole.
I note that many members of the CC thread are trying to reason with this individual and will give them kudos for their efforts however its an exercise in futility.
Duggie Fashion is just another, in a long line of "new posters" on the Cabin Crew thread, there to repeat memorized lines and knee-jerk responses.
It would be nice if all of the references to BALPA could be eliminated as it just muddies the waters and has no more relevance to Cabin Crew and BASSA than the actions taken by the AFL-CIO.
BASSA and their supporters should debate regarding their issues rather than try to deflect from substantive responses by squealing "BALPA" at every opportunity.
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Van Horck #619
Mr Everard cannot have been dismissed for starting a website with the name pccc and posting porn on it.
Posting porn on the internet is not illegal in itself and BA does not own PCCC (I hope) so why did he get dismissed?
Posting porn on the internet is not illegal in itself and BA does not own PCCC (I hope) so why did he get dismissed?
Also worth keeping in mind that there does not have to be any direct link between the employer and its employee in the specifics of any disrepute allegation. There is at least one decided case where an employer sacked workers for their behaviour completely independent of their work relationships. The case in question involved a number of Post Office workers who were caught on camera engaged in football hooliganism at the 2004 Euro Championships. They were sacked and their dismissals were upheld as fair.
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However, in the current climate at the world's favourite, I imagine that if any cabin crew employee crosses that imaginary line (that is always moving) and especially a union rep, then the full force of the disciplinary process will be actioned. So why give the employer reason?
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I agree it was not an action covered in glory, for which he has paid a heavy price. In my opinion too heavy, because I am sure in different circumstances he would still be employed.
Behavior like that is not, and should not, be tolerated. The only depressing thing is that he will now be parachuted into a cosy BASSA sinecure where he can continue to sponge of the people who pay union subs.
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LB
So why give the employer reason?
I don’t know anything about Mr Everards abilities as a representative but I’m forced to conclude based on what I do know that he can’t be that shrewd to have thought that his web site was a good idea – this does have to ask questions regarding the control of the reps also, was this a unilateral decision on his part or was it a sanctioned action by BASSA command and control?
I bloody hope not but don’t imagine that I’ll ever know.
No doubt that he feels foolish now and probably regrets his actions. As do most people that transgress in all walks of life. The best of us learn from it and try move on I guess. I hope he does.
Ignoring BA I have to suggest that the crew are better off without this representative as he has to possess questionable judgement at best, and this is the issue that causes me concern about unions behaviour on occasions, especially BASSA.
He is now being presented as some sort of martyr, unions should defend those in need and deserving of defence of course, but they should not defend those not deserving and should do so for the benefit of all the crew.
In my professional career I have been an employer of thousands, literally. I have in that role had to unfortunately dismiss probably hundreds over the years. I can describe all such dismissals, regardless of their specific details, with a single sentence “protecting the employment of those that behave appropriately, for those that don’t jeopardise the employment and prosperity of all”.
Alas I suspect Mr Everards disciplinary falls into that category. Just another sad chapter in this wholly sad dispute that has been so badly managed.
If as some suggest, Mr Walsh is an evil megalomaniac hell bent on reducing the T’s&C’s of all staff in all departments to Dickensian levels then BASSA’s management of the IA has only served to facilitate and accelerate same.
Fortunately I don’t believe he is, personally. Time will tell I guess.
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That is why you have unions and collective strength; unless you have already played the trump card at the start of the game.
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pmvw:
I must wholeheartedly agree. The attempts by some to excuse or minimize the actions of some of these individuals who have been dismissed (and there have been few dismissals) shows a great disconnect from the reality of business.
Mr. Everard created a pornographic website for the sole and singular purpose of disparaging BA Cabin Crew and BA itself.
A few months ago my husband's IT department came to him with a troubling report that one of his senior individuals had bypassed their filter (rather simply but creatively done I must say) and had been viewing pornography from his business owned computer. He was gone in two days. Done.
With leadership comes responsibility, not only to those you work for, but those you lead. BASSA treats their responsibility as some sort of silly child's game..Refuse to report for duty, texting during confidential negotiations, porn sites, inaccurate representations, etc., etc..
....and people still make excuses for them.
As for this comment:
No, Unions are for protecting workers and staff against REAL wrongs, for negotiating for the best possible position that allows both the workforce and the business to survive and thrive.
The Unions that my husband negotiates with would not have defended or excused a pornographic website set up to defame their co-workers and not one of his Reps would have participated in such conduct.
Not all Unions behave like BASSA.
Out in the real world of private industry, after behaviour like that he would have been out the door so fast he'd have to have his coat posted along later
Mr. Everard created a pornographic website for the sole and singular purpose of disparaging BA Cabin Crew and BA itself.
A few months ago my husband's IT department came to him with a troubling report that one of his senior individuals had bypassed their filter (rather simply but creatively done I must say) and had been viewing pornography from his business owned computer. He was gone in two days. Done.
With leadership comes responsibility, not only to those you work for, but those you lead. BASSA treats their responsibility as some sort of silly child's game..Refuse to report for duty, texting during confidential negotiations, porn sites, inaccurate representations, etc., etc..
....and people still make excuses for them.
As for this comment:
That is why you have unions and collective strength; unless you have already played the trump card at the start of the game.
The Unions that my husband negotiates with would not have defended or excused a pornographic website set up to defame their co-workers and not one of his Reps would have participated in such conduct.
Not all Unions behave like BASSA.
I agree until you get to the quite legally part. Could an employer dismiss somebody legally for being an English, Black, Lesbian, Disabled, Catholic, because she took time off of work whilst pregnant to look after a dependant, just because she was English, Black, Lesbian, Disabled and Catholic?
Unfair or wrongful dismissal is not legal. You can be wrongfully fairly dismissed and visa versa. One breaches common law, the other statute. Both are unlawful, in my opinion. However, I am only too willing to learn, so please explain where I may be wron
Apologies, I should have added the caveat of unless it's for reasons of race/colour/sexuality etc that are covered by separate legislation and which you can't sack for. However it would have to be proved that this were the case and it wasn't just for the fact that the staff member was completely useless.
Unfair dismissal is just that, it's unfair. There are no legal consequences for the employer other than to pay recompense as determined by an ET if found against the employer (or settle pre-tribunal which is what tends to happen more often). They don't get their job back. Our legal advisers are clear that in theory, whilst being unethical, we could if needed get rid of someone by firing them though we'd probably be tribunalled for it, but it isn't against the law, it just may be seen as unfair by a tribunal. There's really no such thing as common law when it comes down to it.
Whilst this does happen it clearly isn't anywhere you'd want to go unless there was a really big problem and it hasn't happened since I've been with the company.
Anyway, I digress, back to the thread!
Unfair or wrongful dismissal is not legal. You can be wrongfully fairly dismissed and visa versa. One breaches common law, the other statute. Both are unlawful, in my opinion. However, I am only too willing to learn, so please explain where I may be wron
Apologies, I should have added the caveat of unless it's for reasons of race/colour/sexuality etc that are covered by separate legislation and which you can't sack for. However it would have to be proved that this were the case and it wasn't just for the fact that the staff member was completely useless.
Unfair dismissal is just that, it's unfair. There are no legal consequences for the employer other than to pay recompense as determined by an ET if found against the employer (or settle pre-tribunal which is what tends to happen more often). They don't get their job back. Our legal advisers are clear that in theory, whilst being unethical, we could if needed get rid of someone by firing them though we'd probably be tribunalled for it, but it isn't against the law, it just may be seen as unfair by a tribunal. There's really no such thing as common law when it comes down to it.
Whilst this does happen it clearly isn't anywhere you'd want to go unless there was a really big problem and it hasn't happened since I've been with the company.
Anyway, I digress, back to the thread!
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Out in the real world of private industry, after behaviour like that he would have been out the door so fast he'd have to have his coat posted along later
The use of porn, and the known impact it can have as noted above, is what moves this case from being "a bit silly" to "gross misconduct/bringing BA into disrepute". If all he'd done was put together a spoof site without the porn, I doubt he'd have been sacked.
I doubt BA are complaining though. They've now got rid of 2 senior reps, apparently 4 more are on "gross misconduct" disciplinaries, which means they are certainly in danger of dismissal, leaving just 3 senior reps. I'll bet that any of those on long term sick will soon be leaving too. In that case, BA will have achieved what Unite has been unwilling or unable to do, namely rein in its dysfunctional branch leadership.
I find it informative that "BASSA Admin" extrapolates the loss of such people with the demise of the Union. There are quotes elsewhere about "if this goes on then there will be no Union left" or some such wording, the clear implication being that the senior reps are the Union. In fact, even with a degree of leakage, BASSA still appears to have almost 10,000 members in BA, and will continue to exist in some form as and when most or all of the senior reps have been removed. The challenge for the 10,000, as well as for Unite I would suggest, is to find new reps who actually see Union representation as a bottom up process, ie research the members' views, collate, develop a consensual position for presentation to management, report back etc. The current crop see it as top down, with the membership there simply to provide "muscle" on behalf of the leadership. Not a very modern approach to representation I would suggest.
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Litebulbs,
are you saying that unions are there to protect employees that don't behave in a professional manner, deliberately tries to ruin the reputation of their employer, thieving, bullying and/or a variety of other behaviours?
are you saying that unions are there to protect employees that don't behave in a professional manner, deliberately tries to ruin the reputation of their employer, thieving, bullying and/or a variety of other behaviours?