BA Cabin Crew Strike Threats (Merged)
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A lot of folk on here lining up to take a pop at WW. Why exactly? These financial problems aren't his fault. Fixing them is his problem. If you were in his shoes how would you tackle the current financial issues. maybe you could offer some guidance..........
I wouldn't want his job for all the tea in China. but wish him the very best of British. Worth every penny
I wouldn't want his job for all the tea in China. but wish him the very best of British. Worth every penny
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common sense in short supply!
My dad used to call it common sense. Today it's called risk management but it amounts to the same thing. Faced with a nasty choice, the wise thing is to do the safest thing with potentialy the least destructive outcome!
With risk management forming so much of the daily avaition business you might have thought that supposedly sensible people will have have chosen the least damaging option when faced with a strike ballot, but no. Seems that common sense is actually in very short supply in B.A.
Let us hope that they make better decisions operationally than they do politically or we get get armed doors opened on the ground, hot coffee poured into passengers laps and heaven knows what else!
With risk management forming so much of the daily avaition business you might have thought that supposedly sensible people will have have chosen the least damaging option when faced with a strike ballot, but no. Seems that common sense is actually in very short supply in B.A.
Let us hope that they make better decisions operationally than they do politically or we get get armed doors opened on the ground, hot coffee poured into passengers laps and heaven knows what else!
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Precisely.
When do you expect anyone to strike? When it least affects your opposition? Arthur S tried that
A strike is a negotiating tool like anything else - it doesn't seem to work very well on unreasonable men like Willie, I'm sure that's another KPI ticked off and another hundred grand in the bonus pot.
More seriously, the whole thing is symptomatic of the UK today. We all shout for spending cuts and hard choices to be made.....but only as long as they don't affect us. When someone stands up for their rights, their CONTRACTUAL rights, the general public only perceive how it affects them, and squeal like stuck hogs.
There was no sympathy for BA pilots over Open Skies, yet they all believed they had a strong ethical and legal case, and the strike they promised would certainly have forced BA to change their minds (and saved them money too
) but the pilots were shot down with a very similar tactic.
Willie uses the same thing, (admittedly BASSA management don't seem to have thought this through very well) again, and fellow employees show zero support.
Bottom line is that the BA business model is doomed anyway, period, end-of-story, but that doesn't mean anyone should be volunteering to work for free while Walsh, the Senior Management and the Board trouser the amounts they deem a fair day's bonus!
Never mind, all the crews will have plenty of time for discussion around the pool while they rest from their horrendous single sector to Sharm!
When do you expect anyone to strike? When it least affects your opposition? Arthur S tried that
A strike is a negotiating tool like anything else - it doesn't seem to work very well on unreasonable men like Willie, I'm sure that's another KPI ticked off and another hundred grand in the bonus pot.More seriously, the whole thing is symptomatic of the UK today. We all shout for spending cuts and hard choices to be made.....but only as long as they don't affect us. When someone stands up for their rights, their CONTRACTUAL rights, the general public only perceive how it affects them, and squeal like stuck hogs.
There was no sympathy for BA pilots over Open Skies, yet they all believed they had a strong ethical and legal case, and the strike they promised would certainly have forced BA to change their minds (and saved them money too
) but the pilots were shot down with a very similar tactic. Willie uses the same thing, (admittedly BASSA management don't seem to have thought this through very well) again, and fellow employees show zero support.
Bottom line is that the BA business model is doomed anyway, period, end-of-story, but that doesn't mean anyone should be volunteering to work for free while Walsh, the Senior Management and the Board trouser the amounts they deem a fair day's bonus!
Never mind, all the crews will have plenty of time for discussion around the pool while they rest from their horrendous single sector to Sharm!
Red Herring
Jetset lady.
Whilst SSH may not be entirely representative of BA's 'Spanish practices' LCA (Larnaca) certainly is. Under five hours donw, nightstop and five scheduled back. Nice work if you can get it.
How do Easy, Monarch and the others who go there and back get away with it. Market forces methinks, but then BA CC wouldn't know too much about that.
Whilst SSH may not be entirely representative of BA's 'Spanish practices' LCA (Larnaca) certainly is. Under five hours donw, nightstop and five scheduled back. Nice work if you can get it.
How do Easy, Monarch and the others who go there and back get away with it. Market forces methinks, but then BA CC wouldn't know too much about that.
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I think its high time that BA cabin crew realise that they have been sold a complete dummy by their union. They should also realise that the incompetant buffoons running their union do not decerve their support. The kind of action that the union was pushing them into was never going to get a ounce of support from BA customers especially at this very stressfull time of year. I believe that the membership of Unite should consider legal action against their leadership for selling them this complete farce!
I have supported cabin crew as much as possible throughout my career but I'm afraid on this occasion I cannot suport what Unite were proposing. The industry is suffering from many forces against it (terrorisim, financial and climate change lunnies) the last thing it needs now is a long strike over Christmas by the best paid cabin crew in the UK with while not perfect are the best terms and conditions available for the job in thde UK.
For those that think Willie Walsh is sitting back sipping his cognac think again he is probably a little relieved that this attempt to destroy BA has failed and he can now get on with the job of trying to keep BA afloat for another few weeks. He has an almost impossible task and for the sake of all BA staff lets hope he can do it!
I have supported cabin crew as much as possible throughout my career but I'm afraid on this occasion I cannot suport what Unite were proposing. The industry is suffering from many forces against it (terrorisim, financial and climate change lunnies) the last thing it needs now is a long strike over Christmas by the best paid cabin crew in the UK with while not perfect are the best terms and conditions available for the job in thde UK.
For those that think Willie Walsh is sitting back sipping his cognac think again he is probably a little relieved that this attempt to destroy BA has failed and he can now get on with the job of trying to keep BA afloat for another few weeks. He has an almost impossible task and for the sake of all BA staff lets hope he can do it!
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It's a cultural thing at BASSA, mainly HEATHROW as Gatwick is a better vibe in my experience. Given that every department has been forced to face up to the real world, Cabin Crew couldn't expect to be allowed to escape cost cutting to rebalance the operation to be competitive.
There is an institution within BA that genuinely and honestly thinks they are better than everyone else and they deserve to get paid more.If enough people believe that within a culture, they'll take confrontation to the wire as BASSA have been past masters at. They forced out the last CEO who tired to take them on in Bob Ayling.
BASSA say they want to take the airline back to the good old days of excellent service, except they REFUSE to acknowledge the cost involved and that people can REALLY get better service for less elsewhere. Skytrax and pprune feedback suggests BA aren't really that great and they are seen to be arrogant and up themselves.
Hence they've been found out and their little bubble of fantasy, re-inforced by the BASSA propaganda machine, an effective one let's be honest, just smacked full tilt into the real world and is now on P3 of the Daily Mail being given out on flights.... BA can't afford to pay cabin crew at that rate as they need the money to save the company, pension fund and renew and aging fleet of B747-400s. If they don't do all three it's game over.
The fact that forward bookings must be drying up, as let's be honest, there's enough risk in my life without betting a three figure sum on a flight that may not go..... As to business customers, do you really think the competition is sitting idly by? They can scent weakness and smell blood. Do you really think people will be flocking back this summer? If not what's the survival plan for the winter?
There is an institution within BA that genuinely and honestly thinks they are better than everyone else and they deserve to get paid more.If enough people believe that within a culture, they'll take confrontation to the wire as BASSA have been past masters at. They forced out the last CEO who tired to take them on in Bob Ayling.
BASSA say they want to take the airline back to the good old days of excellent service, except they REFUSE to acknowledge the cost involved and that people can REALLY get better service for less elsewhere. Skytrax and pprune feedback suggests BA aren't really that great and they are seen to be arrogant and up themselves.
Hence they've been found out and their little bubble of fantasy, re-inforced by the BASSA propaganda machine, an effective one let's be honest, just smacked full tilt into the real world and is now on P3 of the Daily Mail being given out on flights.... BA can't afford to pay cabin crew at that rate as they need the money to save the company, pension fund and renew and aging fleet of B747-400s. If they don't do all three it's game over.
The fact that forward bookings must be drying up, as let's be honest, there's enough risk in my life without betting a three figure sum on a flight that may not go..... As to business customers, do you really think the competition is sitting idly by? They can scent weakness and smell blood. Do you really think people will be flocking back this summer? If not what's the survival plan for the winter?
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Originally Posted by dollydaydream
I am sure you know that if BA had cancelled any flights then full refunds would have been due.
Promising a refund if a flight is cancelled is almost worthless.
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I agree but in saying that I was addressing a particular point Capot had made regarding business travel.
However, it appears the wedding will be attended, the honeymoon will take place, hotel rooms will be slept in and hire cars will be driven - I refer once again to the phrase 'jumping the gun'.
However, it appears the wedding will be attended, the honeymoon will take place, hotel rooms will be slept in and hire cars will be driven - I refer once again to the phrase 'jumping the gun'.
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BASSA? Unite? BA?
As a 'retired' J-Class pax who travels on holiday regularly, I really don't care ... once I've burned my remaining 'BA Miles' I shall fly with a different airline. "The customer is always right" and will, inevitably and with no realistic option in my case [LHR-IAD], become a Virgin customer.
Congratulations to all concerned. Idiots.
[oops - @ JetSet Lady ... LGW/JER is absolutely superb, it's the long-haul LHR-IAD duckies I take issue with. Fantastic service, Ma'am. Thank you, as I declare on all questionnaires and at the door.
As a 'retired' J-Class pax who travels on holiday regularly, I really don't care ... once I've burned my remaining 'BA Miles' I shall fly with a different airline. "The customer is always right" and will, inevitably and with no realistic option in my case [LHR-IAD], become a Virgin customer.
Congratulations to all concerned. Idiots.
[oops - @ JetSet Lady ... LGW/JER is absolutely superb, it's the long-haul LHR-IAD duckies I take issue with. Fantastic service, Ma'am. Thank you, as I declare on all questionnaires and at the door.
Last edited by Two-Tone-Blue; 17th Dec 2009 at 18:47.
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XT668 / Sygyzy
In defence of Jetset Lady (i've already had this discussion with her before the strike). Charter Airlines go round trip to SSH/LXR and to an extent LCA based on times that suit the crew, i.e. day time at times best for reporting.
BA times are driven by slots a lot of the time and market demand for business travellers. i.e. you can go round trip to ATH but BA want to leave ATH at 0600 so it makes it difficult sometime. There is always the case that many Charter airlines also slip crews in these far flung destinations. Comparing them to the likes of Easy and Monarch is easy and i'm sure given half the chance their Cabin Crew would prefer to slip than do a round trip.
Again in defence of BA CC there was a pretty poor article in the Mail today saying BA C only work an average of 20 hours a week, and 900 in a year. It was of course talking flying hours and this is driven by the working time directive. If your doing 900 hours on long haul your working hard for sure.
On the anti CC bit i'm sure if the CC who voted against knew the Union was going to call a 12 day of Xmas strike they would have not voted but that's what their Union is paid to decide
Hopefully common sense has prevailed but BA is still going to loose a lot of money as i've just made half dozen changes away fom BA today and going on other Airlines so to an extent some damage has been done
In defence of Jetset Lady (i've already had this discussion with her before the strike). Charter Airlines go round trip to SSH/LXR and to an extent LCA based on times that suit the crew, i.e. day time at times best for reporting.
BA times are driven by slots a lot of the time and market demand for business travellers. i.e. you can go round trip to ATH but BA want to leave ATH at 0600 so it makes it difficult sometime. There is always the case that many Charter airlines also slip crews in these far flung destinations. Comparing them to the likes of Easy and Monarch is easy and i'm sure given half the chance their Cabin Crew would prefer to slip than do a round trip.
Again in defence of BA CC there was a pretty poor article in the Mail today saying BA C only work an average of 20 hours a week, and 900 in a year. It was of course talking flying hours and this is driven by the working time directive. If your doing 900 hours on long haul your working hard for sure.
On the anti CC bit i'm sure if the CC who voted against knew the Union was going to call a 12 day of Xmas strike they would have not voted but that's what their Union is paid to decide
Hopefully common sense has prevailed but BA is still going to loose a lot of money as i've just made half dozen changes away fom BA today and going on other Airlines so to an extent some damage has been done
Mr Angry from Purley, pretty much the same view as you:
I do not believe that BA CC voted knowing that a 12 day strike would be held immediately.
The threat of action leading up to the ballot and the on/off strike with more to come in January has done enormous harm to the airline. I do really fear that Willie will let BA go to the wall and then arise as BA2010. New contracts all round, no support for the pensions - very attractive.
XT668, Used to do Eilat round trip in BA 757 - well Caledonian: same thing for the pilots.
I do not believe that BA CC voted knowing that a 12 day strike would be held immediately.
The threat of action leading up to the ballot and the on/off strike with more to come in January has done enormous harm to the airline. I do really fear that Willie will let BA go to the wall and then arise as BA2010. New contracts all round, no support for the pensions - very attractive.
XT668, Used to do Eilat round trip in BA 757 - well Caledonian: same thing for the pilots.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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You know, Willie Walsh and Bassa deserve each other. They both view confrontation as negotiation.
I suspect that the HC did them both a BIG favour.
I suspect that the HC did them both a BIG favour.
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When BEA Airtours (then BA Airtours) started, we worked to the BEA CC Industrial Document (bettered CAP371). It worked, CC & company made money. BALPA PLC & the BASSA LC were all in the game. we flew, we made, money, no fly, no money.
Tis about time that the 'Hounslow Bus Garage' CC got the real world in their sights, lets face it, they still think they are working for 'Britain's Only Airborne Circus'. T'ain't Imperial Airways any more
I rest my case.
PS I was there once
Not CC though
Tis about time that the 'Hounslow Bus Garage' CC got the real world in their sights, lets face it, they still think they are working for 'Britain's Only Airborne Circus'. T'ain't Imperial Airways any more
I rest my case.
PS I was there once
Not CC though
I walked away from BA, in one respect, when they simply priced themselves out of contention against their rivals. But I can't deny feeling guilty ever since due to not supporting what was once a supreme airline and - when it really meant something internationally - the respected British national flag carrier.
One can only speak as one knows, or finds. It's a long time since I have encountered the prototype snotty BA CC of old. The vast majority encountered in recent years have been as good as any airline's CC, and absolutely better than most.
But as glorified teabag squeezers can one expect much intellectual rigour and savee from them? Absolutely not. Demonstrably so in the way so many opted for a quiet life, laid back and voted for "industrial action" without a clue either precisely what it was, nor what dimensions such action might assume once decided by a maniacally self-exciting union, led by self-important posturing DHs.
CC contacts tell of their genuine horror at hearing the union announce TWELVE consecutive days of strike action, totally disproportionate to a vast number of the rank and file's expectations at the time they were balloted. It seems for many more that the vociferously hostile media and public reaction to the CC's vote and Unite's loony strike announcement has shocked them to the core. If you live amongst a working group buoyed up and blinded by its own sense of combined mistreatment and entitlement, you will hear precious little counter-argument (aka common sense). This evening many CC are surely shocked to discover the awful reality - they ARE a pampered and cossetted group who have been living it up on borrowed time.
And that time has just run out.
I hope BA can sue Unite - and especially BASSA - for the grievous bodily brand damage and lost earnings they have brainlessly and vindictively inflicted upon their fellow staff members in other divisions of what is still, intrinsically, one of the world's great airlines.
iwalkedaway (but against this background, never regretted it)
One can only speak as one knows, or finds. It's a long time since I have encountered the prototype snotty BA CC of old. The vast majority encountered in recent years have been as good as any airline's CC, and absolutely better than most.
But as glorified teabag squeezers can one expect much intellectual rigour and savee from them? Absolutely not. Demonstrably so in the way so many opted for a quiet life, laid back and voted for "industrial action" without a clue either precisely what it was, nor what dimensions such action might assume once decided by a maniacally self-exciting union, led by self-important posturing DHs.
CC contacts tell of their genuine horror at hearing the union announce TWELVE consecutive days of strike action, totally disproportionate to a vast number of the rank and file's expectations at the time they were balloted. It seems for many more that the vociferously hostile media and public reaction to the CC's vote and Unite's loony strike announcement has shocked them to the core. If you live amongst a working group buoyed up and blinded by its own sense of combined mistreatment and entitlement, you will hear precious little counter-argument (aka common sense). This evening many CC are surely shocked to discover the awful reality - they ARE a pampered and cossetted group who have been living it up on borrowed time.
And that time has just run out.
I hope BA can sue Unite - and especially BASSA - for the grievous bodily brand damage and lost earnings they have brainlessly and vindictively inflicted upon their fellow staff members in other divisions of what is still, intrinsically, one of the world's great airlines.
iwalkedaway (but against this background, never regretted it)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan Tugoh
The legal finding was that the error of procedure was entirely and easily avoidable
Originally Posted by Juan Tugoh
The legal finding was that the error of procedure was entirely and easily avoidable
It was? - if you are balloting large numbers of employees then in the timelag between sending out the ballots and counting them there are bound to be some whose service ends. The only way around that is to cease having secret ballots - not a wise move IMHO.
The union made no attempt to warn anyone about NOT voting if they were no longer in the company.
It was also stated that due to the union screw up the CC were vulnerable to instant dismissal re breach of contract.
So it maybe that BA going to court saved the CC from an unintended outcome.
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Sygyzy/XT668,
My charter crew friend has just picked up a 9 day Mombassa. Whilst she is supping her cocktails, round the pool, I will work two bullet Bermudas and have two days off. Do I begrudge her that? God no! I hope she has a fabulous trip. It's all swings and roundabouts, no matter what airline you work for. Can we please drop the subject now, as it's detracting from the real issues at hand?
Jsl
P.S. Mr Angry from Purley, thank you for trying!
My charter crew friend has just picked up a 9 day Mombassa. Whilst she is supping her cocktails, round the pool, I will work two bullet Bermudas and have two days off. Do I begrudge her that? God no! I hope she has a fabulous trip. It's all swings and roundabouts, no matter what airline you work for. Can we please drop the subject now, as it's detracting from the real issues at hand?
Jsl
P.S. Mr Angry from Purley, thank you for trying!
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Dolly DD
Please understand that when a business is faced with a probability of more than about 5% that a lot of flights it has booked may be cancelled, with consequent contractual breaches potentially costing hundreds of thousands of pounds, it is a matter of simple risk management to eliminate that risk by, as you put it, "jumping the gun".
Even some leisure or VFR passengers travelling for an important family event could well feel that the risk of missing that event by waiting to see what might happen was too high, and that they must "jump the gun".
Until today, the probability of massive disruption was much higher than the probability that the strike would be called off. If it were up to the union, the strike would still be going ahead.
As things are now, a strike is still threatened at some undetermined date in the next few months when the union has sorted out its ballot procedures. Its members may well be less supportive now, but the risk is still there. In these circumstances, booking and paying in advance for any flight on BA more than a few days ahead is an act of madness. There does not have to be a stoppage; just the threat is enough to put BA into the bankruptcy the union appears to be seeking.
Please understand that when a business is faced with a probability of more than about 5% that a lot of flights it has booked may be cancelled, with consequent contractual breaches potentially costing hundreds of thousands of pounds, it is a matter of simple risk management to eliminate that risk by, as you put it, "jumping the gun".
Even some leisure or VFR passengers travelling for an important family event could well feel that the risk of missing that event by waiting to see what might happen was too high, and that they must "jump the gun".
Until today, the probability of massive disruption was much higher than the probability that the strike would be called off. If it were up to the union, the strike would still be going ahead.
As things are now, a strike is still threatened at some undetermined date in the next few months when the union has sorted out its ballot procedures. Its members may well be less supportive now, but the risk is still there. In these circumstances, booking and paying in advance for any flight on BA more than a few days ahead is an act of madness. There does not have to be a stoppage; just the threat is enough to put BA into the bankruptcy the union appears to be seeking.
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Glad for all travelling this Christmas that the strike is off.
In future these outdated tactics will not affect me. As I posted (much) earlier - here's one Gold Card business class traveller who has become ABBA - anything but BA!
In future these outdated tactics will not affect me. As I posted (much) earlier - here's one Gold Card business class traveller who has become ABBA - anything but BA!