BA Cabin Crew Strike Threats (Merged)
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One of the two joint UNITE union leaders has admitted that a 12 day strike was maybe "a bit over the top". Some BA CC have been quoted as saying they were not aware they were voting for a 12 day strike. A number of those who voted were not elegible to do so therefore will not vote in any future ballot.
In view of the above and the lack of public sympathy for the strike is it not possible (probable even) that the re-ballot result could be very different due to many UNITE CC members having second thoughts?
In view of the above and the lack of public sympathy for the strike is it not possible (probable even) that the re-ballot result could be very different due to many UNITE CC members having second thoughts?
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It doesn't really surprise me that BASSA / Unite couldn't hold a valid ballot. I left Unite over a year ago and still receive all sorts of junk from them about members' free life insurance etc. I wrote back but still get this c**p, now I just return it.
Maybe they are in breach of the data protection act?
Maybe they are in breach of the data protection act?
Paxing All Over The World
Andy_S
Off Topic.
Someone deregulated the City of London in 1986. Not the sole cause but a big one. As with most politicians, by the time the birds come home to roost they are retired. A bit like CEOs really ...
As for the anti-Thatcherite rant, if you really believe that the current banking crisis is her fault 20 years after she left office, then you really are deluded.
Someone deregulated the City of London in 1986. Not the sole cause but a big one. As with most politicians, by the time the birds come home to roost they are retired. A bit like CEOs really ...
So IMO the current administration have a great deal of culpability. But unfortunately some people will never see that; in their eyes Thatcher is 100% responsible for everything bad that's ever happened or ever will happen. I just don't find that a very rational point of view.
Sorry to go off topic.....
Like many other people
'How would you feel if your 'terms and conditions' are altered when you have based your life, mortgage and family on the conditions you signed up for 10 years ago?'
Title says it all (includes myself). So you are special and deserve a guarantee ? Never heard that people are made redundant ? Change has to be addressed, like it or not, and some change is inevitable.
Title says it all (includes myself). So you are special and deserve a guarantee ? Never heard that people are made redundant ? Change has to be addressed, like it or not, and some change is inevitable.
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For those of you interested, below is the judgement made in the High Court yesterday:
According to BA, Unite included in the balloting constituency a significant number of volunteers for redundancy who were known by it to be leaving BA's employment by the relevant date; in its notice of ballot Unite failed to provide accurate figures with regard to the total numbers of employees that it reasonably believed would be entitled to vote in the ballot; and in its notice of industrial action it had failed to provide accurate figures with regard to those employees who might be induced to take part in the strike. Unite relied on s.232(b) of the Act, claiming that any failure to comply with statutory requirements was accidental.
Held:
Application granted.
British Airways Plc v Unite the Union
Queen's Bench Division
17 December 2009
Case Digest
Summary: Interim injunctions; Industrial action; Industrial action against airlines over Christmas period; Non-compliance with statutory requirements for ballots; Balance of convenience
Abstract: The applicant airline (BA) applied for an interim injunction to restrain the respondent trade union (Unite) from proceeding with industrial action based on the result of a ballot.
BA had embarked on a cost-cutting and efficiency exercise and had sought to reduce its cabin crew headcount. Litigation ensued, but in advance of the trial Unite called for a 12-day strike over the Christmas period.
Notice of intention to ballot cabin crew for the strike, the notice of the results and notice of industrial action was provided to BA. BA claimed that Unite had not complied with the requirements for a ballot under the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 s.227 , s226A and s.234A .
BA had embarked on a cost-cutting and efficiency exercise and had sought to reduce its cabin crew headcount. Litigation ensued, but in advance of the trial Unite called for a 12-day strike over the Christmas period.
Notice of intention to ballot cabin crew for the strike, the notice of the results and notice of industrial action was provided to BA. BA claimed that Unite had not complied with the requirements for a ballot under the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 s.227 , s226A and s.234A .
According to BA, Unite included in the balloting constituency a significant number of volunteers for redundancy who were known by it to be leaving BA's employment by the relevant date; in its notice of ballot Unite failed to provide accurate figures with regard to the total numbers of employees that it reasonably believed would be entitled to vote in the ballot; and in its notice of industrial action it had failed to provide accurate figures with regard to those employees who might be induced to take part in the strike. Unite relied on s.232(b) of the Act, claiming that any failure to comply with statutory requirements was accidental.
Held:
(1) There were breaches of technical statutory requirements by Unite. Unite could not rely on the defence under s.232(b) of the Act, and nor could it say that it had taken such steps as were reasonably practicable for the purposes of s.227, s226A and s.234A.
Unite was in possession of information concerning employees who had volunteered for redundancy. In the light of that information it was aware, or ought to have been aware, that the figures provided to BA included those who opted for voluntary redundancy and thus included Unite's members who were not entitled to vote. It was practicable and reasonable to enquire as to which members were leaving BA's employment.
Unite had never issued instructions to members about not voting if they were leaving BA's employment by the relevant date, despite having had opportunities to do so.
Further, there was insufficient evidence that any inaccuracy in the information provided was due to intransigency on BA's part. Evidence showed that Unite was clearly on notice that its figures were inaccurate and that the balloting process was flawed.
(2) The balance of convenience lay in favour of granting the injunction sought by BA. Damages were not an adequate remedy for BA and the a strike over the 12 days of Christmas was fundamentally more damaging to BA and the wider public than a strike taking place at almost any other time of the year.
Unite was in possession of information concerning employees who had volunteered for redundancy. In the light of that information it was aware, or ought to have been aware, that the figures provided to BA included those who opted for voluntary redundancy and thus included Unite's members who were not entitled to vote. It was practicable and reasonable to enquire as to which members were leaving BA's employment.
Unite had never issued instructions to members about not voting if they were leaving BA's employment by the relevant date, despite having had opportunities to do so.
Further, there was insufficient evidence that any inaccuracy in the information provided was due to intransigency on BA's part. Evidence showed that Unite was clearly on notice that its figures were inaccurate and that the balloting process was flawed.
(2) The balance of convenience lay in favour of granting the injunction sought by BA. Damages were not an adequate remedy for BA and the a strike over the 12 days of Christmas was fundamentally more damaging to BA and the wider public than a strike taking place at almost any other time of the year.
Application granted.
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One has a lot of sympathy for any workers here who want to strike if faced with the possibility of redundancies. Only the employer knows who is going to be made redundant. If the union advises members who have applied for redundancy not to vote, but the employer keeps them on, the union is also in technical breach as it has not balloted members it is inducing to strike. If that was the case, in front of this judge BA would be expected to win the same injunction, especially over Christmas, when the judge appears to say laws have different importance.
At no stage does it appear the judge considered the undisputed fact that over 50% of the members who will be employees on 22nd December voted in a secret ballot to strike. This fundamental right to withdraw labour has been ignored in favour of technical breaches (disputed) which would not have affected the final result of a canvasing of the wishes of the workers.
BALPA will be one of the next unions, imo, to take militant action in BA, and should take note. They will also probably be striking for the same reasons the cabin crew strike, an attack on terms and conditions which are completely out of whack with reality.
This just prolongs the inevitable though and, IMO, demonstrates that the powers that be will keep a brain dead BA alive and on life support as long as they can. While BA moves from crisis to crisis we could have had new airline(s) getting going and providing a decent service from LHR, and who knows, the regions too.
At no stage does it appear the judge considered the undisputed fact that over 50% of the members who will be employees on 22nd December voted in a secret ballot to strike. This fundamental right to withdraw labour has been ignored in favour of technical breaches (disputed) which would not have affected the final result of a canvasing of the wishes of the workers.
BALPA will be one of the next unions, imo, to take militant action in BA, and should take note. They will also probably be striking for the same reasons the cabin crew strike, an attack on terms and conditions which are completely out of whack with reality.
This just prolongs the inevitable though and, IMO, demonstrates that the powers that be will keep a brain dead BA alive and on life support as long as they can. While BA moves from crisis to crisis we could have had new airline(s) getting going and providing a decent service from LHR, and who knows, the regions too.
Why is that so difficult to understand?
I would have sympathy with anyone who faces involuntary redundancy. But no-one does in this case. Of course, if the unions persist down this self destructive course then that may change.
Paxing All Over The World
Scumbag
I agree - but that is what happens in 99% of the occasions, both in commerce and government and charities and voluntary organisations. (i.e. where humans are involved!)
BA is nearing the end of it's natural life span (90 years as they celebrated this year) but the problem is that very few companies / organisations reach 100. There are just too many humans with too much history involved and the previous factors that spurred their growth, now weigh them down. Since BA failed to make a significant merger (AA thwarted by govts) they are destined to be a small player and exist in name only.
If the govts of the world wanted airlines to be strong into the future, employ a reasonable number of people and not have too many flights (= green) then they should immediately support the implementation of the new global airlines called Oneworld, Star Alliance, Sky Team and so on.
Won't happen of course and BA will just have to continue managing decline whilst pretending otherwise. The CC issue is only one of the steps on the road and by no means the critical one.
This just prolongs the inevitable though and, IMO, demonstrates that the powers that be will keep a brain dead BA alive and on life support as long as they can. While BA moves from crisis to crisis we could have had new airline(s) getting going and providing a decent service from LHR, and who knows, the regions.
BA is nearing the end of it's natural life span (90 years as they celebrated this year) but the problem is that very few companies / organisations reach 100. There are just too many humans with too much history involved and the previous factors that spurred their growth, now weigh them down. Since BA failed to make a significant merger (AA thwarted by govts) they are destined to be a small player and exist in name only.
If the govts of the world wanted airlines to be strong into the future, employ a reasonable number of people and not have too many flights (= green) then they should immediately support the implementation of the new global airlines called Oneworld, Star Alliance, Sky Team and so on.
Won't happen of course and BA will just have to continue managing decline whilst pretending otherwise. The CC issue is only one of the steps on the road and by no means the critical one.
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BA will never collapse, the UK government would stop it long before it came to this.
If they let this go into something like such would be a really bad embarrassment for the UK.
Politics rules here.
Bet someone has pen ready to write the check if or when things get this bad.
The union maybe would have had more public support if they would have elected for in industrial action after the holidays, too many customers that would not end up agreeing with travel plans interrupted during the holidays.
Just my view.
If they let this go into something like such would be a really bad embarrassment for the UK.
Politics rules here.
Bet someone has pen ready to write the check if or when things get this bad.
The union maybe would have had more public support if they would have elected for in industrial action after the holidays, too many customers that would not end up agreeing with travel plans interrupted during the holidays.
Just my view.
Last edited by Earl; 20th Dec 2009 at 19:14.
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"BA will never collapse, the UK government would stop it long before it came to this.
If they let this go into something like such would be a really bad embarrassment for the UK.
Politics rules here people."
Living in the past there.
Did the government Stop Rover going bust?
Did they stop the massive job losses at corus?
Did they stop Globespan going bust or any of the other airlines?
Did the belgium Government stop Sabena going bust?
did the government stop all the other buisnesses in this country going bust?
Besides the fact that the EU will not allow government intervention (unless its thier own personal money in their bank accounts of course) the political will from the two main political parties (you can't get a fag paper between thier views these days) is not there to save a private industry
If they let this go into something like such would be a really bad embarrassment for the UK.
Politics rules here people."
Living in the past there.
Did the government Stop Rover going bust?
Did they stop the massive job losses at corus?
Did they stop Globespan going bust or any of the other airlines?
Did the belgium Government stop Sabena going bust?
did the government stop all the other buisnesses in this country going bust?
Besides the fact that the EU will not allow government intervention (unless its thier own personal money in their bank accounts of course) the political will from the two main political parties (you can't get a fag paper between thier views these days) is not there to save a private industry
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Wow Sabena warkman?
You go back a long way.
Hope they BA work it out with public support.
Doing this during Christmas makes more enemies than friends.
In this business you have to choose the battles correctly and with proper timing.
Maybe they chose this time for the most severe impact.
But they ended up pissing off the traveling public.
A later date maybe would have gotten better results and contract issues.
Just my view.
BTW I Think the people that wanted to strike had conditions that needed to be addressed.
But I see the public side also and during Christmas is not a good time to do this, as most depend on getting home, do it later.
Otherwise B/A will be known as the Grinch That Sole Christmas.
Get it together.
You go back a long way.
Hope they BA work it out with public support.
Doing this during Christmas makes more enemies than friends.
In this business you have to choose the battles correctly and with proper timing.
Maybe they chose this time for the most severe impact.
But they ended up pissing off the traveling public.
A later date maybe would have gotten better results and contract issues.
Just my view.
BTW I Think the people that wanted to strike had conditions that needed to be addressed.
But I see the public side also and during Christmas is not a good time to do this, as most depend on getting home, do it later.
Otherwise B/A will be known as the Grinch That Sole Christmas.
Get it together.
Last edited by Earl; 20th Dec 2009 at 19:44.
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If the government stopped BA from going under, I think the "Bearded Wonder" might have something to say - as indeed would Michael O'Leary (mind you, he always has something to say!)
The most likely scenario I can see is, just like Sabena (SN Brussels) and Swissair (Swiss), the government would let BA go under and then resurrect something from the fallout - BA Lite perhaps!
I am also pretty sure that former union troublemakers would not be offered positions with the new airline (which is exactly what happened with SN and Swiss!)
The most likely scenario I can see is, just like Sabena (SN Brussels) and Swissair (Swiss), the government would let BA go under and then resurrect something from the fallout - BA Lite perhaps!
I am also pretty sure that former union troublemakers would not be offered positions with the new airline (which is exactly what happened with SN and Swiss!)
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For me, long before the srike proposal I voted with my credit card. BA may make pots of money with business class and good for them. I cant afford business class and therefore use economy. In this thread there have been some comments from gold /exec/ but very few from economy wallahs like me. BA is an awful airline to fly economy with. Combined with Heathrow its worse than sticking pins in your eyes and listening to Bjork. Unfortunately I have little choice than to fly from Heathrow but I prefer Aeroflot.
If Walsh and Unite want to engage in willy-waving (no pun intended) then let them get on with it. I actively avoid BA anyway so them going to the wall wont concern me in the slightest.
I'm surprised that Untie (pun intended) have managed to pursue a strike action on very dodgy legal grounds. They should know better.
As for the comments about the government bailing BA out - they wont, as they dont have any money to do so. Another big rescue act is simply not possible.
If Walsh and Unite want to engage in willy-waving (no pun intended) then let them get on with it. I actively avoid BA anyway so them going to the wall wont concern me in the slightest.
I'm surprised that Untie (pun intended) have managed to pursue a strike action on very dodgy legal grounds. They should know better.
As for the comments about the government bailing BA out - they wont, as they dont have any money to do so. Another big rescue act is simply not possible.
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For me, long before the strike proposal I voted with my credit card. BA may make pots of money with business class and good for them. I cant afford business class and therefore use economy. In this thread there have been some comments from gold /exec/ but very few from economy wallahs like me.
I could guess that Economy pax know what to expect - cramped seating, moderate food, possibly some IFE if it's working. Their primary expectation is, of course, that the airline conveys them safely from A to B.
Business pax pay substantially more for the privilege of decent seating. The food and IFE isn't that much better. And, from my recent experiences in Long-haul, the quality of service isn't much better either.
As with you and your destination[s], I have no choice but to fly from LHR. And the only airlines serving my destination are BA, VS ... and CO and United. And I'm expected to pay an arm and a leg to BA for poor service and the risk of my travel plans being disrupted by striking CC?
I guess I'll get used Branson's red/purple interior colour scheme
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"BA will never collapse"
Administration (law) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
depends what you mean by "collapse"
"Politics rules here."
Indeed however if the tories win the next election having Gordons browns best mate in one of unite's top jobs and supplying 15% of labours funding isn't going to help much
Administration (law) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
depends what you mean by "collapse"
"Politics rules here."
Indeed however if the tories win the next election having Gordons browns best mate in one of unite's top jobs and supplying 15% of labours funding isn't going to help much
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Somehow I dont think flatpack admin will work for BA. Might be ok when a restaurant goes bust or a football club bites the dust - but a FTSE quoted company needing global suppliers, CAA licensing, issues over who actually owns Heathrow slots. Aint gonna happen
BA has an incurable disease called 'Legacy'. It wont be around in existing form in 2 years.
As a financier was quoted yesterday, along the lines of
'BA is a massive pension deficit with a few old aircraft attached to it'
BA has an incurable disease called 'Legacy'. It wont be around in existing form in 2 years.
As a financier was quoted yesterday, along the lines of
'BA is a massive pension deficit with a few old aircraft attached to it'
Fleet Age
Both the FT and The Economist (how upmarket am I) had pieces on BA's position. Reckons the 747 fleet is on average only 5 years away from retirement which adds to financing woes.
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Both the FT and The Economist (how upmarket am I) had pieces on BA's position. Reckons the 747 fleet is on average only 5 years away from retirement which adds to financing woes.
There are also Boeing Dreamliners on order and re-jigging the equipment used on routes according to demand is already being planned!
There is a bit of a capital issue, but BA has been putting money aside for that - providing BASSA and the management don't have a long, drawn-out, bitter dispute!
I hope not!