fireblade2000uk

I can remember many years ago flying from Madrid to LGW on a Dan Air Comet on Friday 13th. Over the Bay of Biscay I calmly (ish) walked up to the cabin door and just stood there. A stewardess asked me what was wrong and I said in a very calm voice "please ask the pilot to land the aeroplane. I want to get off." Whilst 95% of my brain was telling me not to be so stupid and to sit down, the 5% was so strong, so powerful that it took over the common sense. Fortunately she gently guided me to my seat and, sitting in the aisle beside me, spoke to me for the remainder of the flight. My fears seemed to vanish once she started speaking.
For 5 or 6 years after that I simply could not fly, panic attacks days before departure resulting in the cancellation of trips. I eventually attended one of the first BA fear of flying courses. I thought I knew a bit about the theory of flight having been in the Cadet Force at school and flown Chipmunks. The course was so enlightening, even down to explaining why it sounded like the nose wheel had a puncture on the takeoff run, the crew then moving the aircraft slightly left of centre (a bit like running on cats eyes when driving and then steering off them).
It was when we got on board an aircraft to complete the course, I suddenly realised that my fear was far more controlled than others. We were pushed back from the gate twice, having had to return to let people off! Having completed the course I started to fly as a passenger again, not just in big jets but helicopters and occasional smaller General Aviation aircraft. I never really enjoyed it but tried my best to cope. Then, one day whilst getting on a flight to the Lebanon, my fears returned. Having alerted the crew (and got on and off the aircraft about 3 times obviously whilst still at the gate) I eventually calmed myself enough using the techniques from the course to stay on board. After take-off the captain came back and spoke to me offering advice on relaxation etc. About an hour out of Beirut he invited me into the cockpit and I sat in the jump seat for the approach and landing. I have to stay I was enthralled, it was simply fantastic, and it had such a profound effect on me that I have flown without fear ever since.
I consider myself extremely fortunate that jumpseats were allowed to be used in the past. I knew that I would have to overcome my fear eventually, but what the crew did for me that day really did it for me and I can never thank them enough.
I did write to the airline and asked for my thnaks to be passed on but you never know if the message was delivered. I hope so.

beachfront71

You also have to remember that chances are all of us are going to have to board a flight multiple times during our life so with that in mind, if flying is truly a frightening episode do your self a favor and start coping with it now... not the days or weeks before you have to get on a plane.

It is just like any other event you may come across.. a job interview, running a marathon, remodeling your home, etc.. these are all sort of random acts but the point is you dont just wake up and do them, you prepare weeks, if not months, in advance before the big day comes around.

If flying makes you that anxious, approach it with a plan and just like someone who has trained hard for a marathon, you will feel confident and even excited for the task at hand when the day comes around.

ladylily63

I have been flying as a passenger for almost 40 years and wouldn't say I was fearful, just slightly apprehensive on boarding an aircraft.

I have encountered slight turbulence on most flights, however last May shortly after our departure from Malaga we had severe turbulence. Even the cabin crew looked scared which didn't reassure us much. The aircraft seemed to drop a considerable amount on a couple of occasions. It lasted about 15 mins which surprised me as I had always thought the pilot would do his best to get out of it if possible.

Would this have been caused by the mountains in the area? However I fly to Malaga frequently and have never experienced this before. Worse thing was there was no mention of it from the pilot after we had gone through it and stabilised, surely a reassuring announcement would be the done thing after such an event?

Now the silly questions

Is turbulence dangerous? and what is the worse case scenario

Do pilots ever get frightened by it?

Thank you and my apologies if my questions seem daft to you professionals!

redsnail

yourfather,

Correct, a 20 year old aircraft isn't necessarily less safe than a 2 month old one.

Re fatigue, our engineers use many techniques to detect it. For starters, many parts are "life'd" that is, they have a set time period they can be installed. After that, replace. There's boroscopes, x-rays and other non destructive methods to check the components.
Fatigue in components is relatively easy to catch, fatigue in people, a lot harder.

Turbine Engines rarely flame out. 2 reasons. Too much ice ingestion (it has to be A LOT) or lack of fuel. When there's a risk of icing or in clouds, we turn on the engine anti ice system and turn on the igniters. Unlike a car (piston engine), we (turbines) don't need the igniters (spark plugs) on all the time.

I strongly advise you to seek out Qantas' Fear of Flying course. It is well worth it. I used to assist on it every now and then.

ladylily,

Yeah, Malaga is known for it's turbulence and is caused by the mountains nearby. 15 min is a long time but if there's another aircraft above then they cannot climb.
Yes, a reassuring word from the flight deck would be useful, but if they're below 10,000' and trying to deal with Spanish ATC (controllers) as well as monitor what's going on, they just might have been a bit busy.

Turbulence dangerous? Only if you try and do something really silly in it. Hence flying in a thunderstorm is unwise. (Big cause of delays in summer)

I don't like it. I do my best to get out of it ASAP.

ladylily63

Thank you for your reply Redsnail, slightly reassuring but a bit disconcerting to hear that pilots don't like turbulence either

I understand what you mean about the pilots being busy but still think they could have done an announcement later on in the flight.

Best wishes

redsnail

ladylily,

Reason why we don't like it is because it spills our coffee. Must admit, I didn't worry about it so much when I flew freight. My pax think nothing of tapping us on the shoulders and asking when it will stop....

I can't answer why they didn't. Could be many reasons. I'm not going to speculate.

ladylily63

love your reply haha don't want any burns casualties on board

Final 3 Greens

As a FQTV (fly about 120 sectors per year), I reckon that many passengers are at least slightly nervous, this being an anecdotal conclusion from conversations with other passengers.

There are good reasons for this discomfort and I'd just like to say that its really nice to see people from the industry taking time to share knowledge and empathise with posters here.

FWOF

Well here's a topic I can certainly add value to.

Up to just over two years ago I was adamant I would never, ever fly again. I was convinced I would die, plumetting to the earth/sea to my death. I felt sure everyone felt the same, afterall, there are so many things that can go wrong on a plane, aren't there? My last flight prior to this ten year break was to Jamaica where I cried and sobbed all the way there and all the way back.

THEN I got offered a job in Belfast, which meant having the FLY. TWICE a week! So, I took it as I knew that I'd be flying with a colleague I love and trust. I'd never be able to fly alone.

The first flight I took (all of 35 mins) couldn't have been better. Smooth, perfect and more importantly, short. However, the moment we touched down my first thought was that I will never, EVER be able to get on a plane again! Well of course I did as I had to get home but on the day I landed I scoured the internet and found a site called Flying Without Fear. I ordered a book, a DVD and a set of CD's. When I got home I read the book cover to cover, twice. Watched the DVD and listened to the CD's which were superb. I used to be nervous of all the noises, things that were strange to me but clearly completely normal! I think I spent about £60, and it was worth it.

With regard to turbulence, I now look at it this way, and this is just as a PAX, as you've seen there are lots of superb answers from others above. So, my sensibility tells me that firstly the plane would never be flown into anything dangerous. I also understand that planes and wings are tested to levels that simply would never ever occur in the real world. Sure, it gives me a turn sometimes to look out the window and see the wings waggling away and bending all over the place, but if they didn't they'd snap off probably! Sometimes it's bumpy, sometimes bumpier than others, but it's just uncomfortable at best, and certainly not dangerous! Also the thing that gives me the greatest comfort is that the plane is flown by normal guys and girls for whom it's a day job. Same goes for cabin crew. They want to get home as much as we do!

Sadly, and I did this myself, when you're nervous you go looking for facts and figures. And you will find them, and lots of awful pictures and videos. What you won't hear on the news or find anywhere in the media is a screaming headline that says "TWENTY THOUSAND FLIGHTS WENT TODAY - ALL COMPLETELY NORMAL!". Of course, when accidents DO happen, and they do at times, it's newsworthy because it's so unusual! And I agree that you do have to consider it the same as getting in your car. I don't even think about, and yet hundreds of people every day are killed and injured in car accidents, or crossing the road.

So I'll close by saying that I'm still not cured so to speak, I'm not leaping up the steps two at a time! But I now take four flights a week, alone. I sit by the window, I listen to my iPod, I have a drink. I enjoy that the plane is either taking me to work or taking me home. If it's bumpy (very rarely, as we seem to get moved out of the way of it!), I just hold my drink so it doesn't spill! And when I get off at the end, I ALWAYS say thankyou to the cabin crew and any of the uniforms that are stood there.

Good luck!

charlie76

Thanks for this reply. You sound like me. I have a flight booked for next Thursday and from the minute its booked I am terrified. I m that bad that I almost wish that the flight will be cancelled.
I have just ordered some CDs and I have read the book which has helped a little.
I really hope that I can become a normal flyer like you.

Sockendon1

This is my first post...and as a very, VERY nervous flyer (I also cry before and during every take off! )...am compelled to write and say a huge 'Thank You' to the explanations given by all SLF and airline personnel in this thread..(whether you're up front and driving or pandering to my needs down in the main part of the tube )

As touched on here, I have been using this forum for a while to learn a bit more about what goes on in general, and I must say, have been helped immensley (sp?) by a number of the threads contained.

My main issue is also control, and in particular the lack of it I have over other SLF! You know the sort..for example - the ones who insist on using their phones until the VERY last second etc - at which point I'm trying to talk myself out of physically wrestling them to the ground and confiscating (and switching off ) the offending item! I've always been terrified that one mobile would cause the FD to cease operating completely and would result in the a/c plummeting 34,000ft - irrational I understand to those in 'the know' but a very real fear for me...

Recently I was helped by the FAQ's thread (some newbies do read them..) - covering this very topic and which after reading left me a little calmer and logical. In fact, 2 weeks ago on a flight from LAS to LGW I even managed not to have a major panic attack when the PAX behind me brought out his phone (switched on but in flight mode - I hope!! ) to show me pictures of his baby! What do they say? One step at a time....

So, thank you again to you all for your professionalism and patience with PAX such as I. Your work is always greatly appreciated although I may be too scared to show it at the time. I certainly couldn't/wouldn't do you job - not for anything!

Fly safe..

S

TightSlot

Welcome to PPRuNe Sockendon1 - and thanks for your first post (and reading the FAQ's )

SNS3Guppy

Is turbulence dangerous...it can be. Many things can be dangerous. Driving to buy groceries on a snowy day, for example. That can be dangerous. What does one do when the roads are slick and it's dangerous to drive? One slows down. We do the same thing in an airplane. We have speeds at which we can pass safely through turbulence.

Some years ago I was involved in a retardant drop on a wildfire southeast of Albuquerque, New Mexico (USA). We were on the lee side of a mountain range with some strong winds. Mountains produce strong turbulence. The turbulence on this drop was severe to extreme; it was bad enough that our vision was blurred from the violence. Our run-in was at low level, and due to terrain, downwind. We would likely have elected to go sit it out until the winds died down, but a very fast moving wildfire was about to overtake a community, and the retardant was badly needed on scene.

In our sister ship, following behind us, was an identical crew, consisting of captain, copilot, and flight engineer. The flight engineer was sitting on the forward edge of his seat, working the power levers...much like the gas pedal on your car. He wasn't able to wear his seat belt because he had to lean so far forward to operate the power levers during the drop. As they came off the drop, the captain called for power, and the power didn't increase. He glanced down at the power levers to find that there were no hands on them, and then glanced back at the flight engineer's seat to find the FE was gone.

The turbulence had thrown the FE out of his seat, against the overheat panel, and then back. On the way down he missed his seat. He was then thrown upward against the ceiling of the flight deck, narrowly missing the open overhead hatch. On the way down he missed the flight deck, hitting the stairs that lead into the cargo bay (C-130). He wrapped his arms around the legs of the first sling seat at the bottom of the stairs and held on.

I roomed with him that night in Albuquerque. He was sore, bruised. He looked like he'd been in a gang fight. None too happy.

What's the worse-case scneario with turbulence? The aircraft can break up.

Will that happen with you on board? No.

The situations in which you fly on an airliner are very different. The situation I just described was severe and extreme turbulence; we spent much of our time flying in those kind of conditions. In an airliner operation, you don't. In fact, seldom is anything more than "light chop" experienced. It's a little disconcerting when sitting in the passenger section of the airplane...but it's not dangerous in the least.

In daily airline operations, what we see as a "rough ride" isn't remotely close to turbulence that presents any kind of hazard. We still take it very seriously, though. Passenger comfort comes into play long before turbulence becomes dangerous...so we're passing messages back and forth in flight between aircraft and with air traffic control, looking for reports of the best ride, best altitude, etc.

Most of the time when you're in cruise in an airliner and you experience turbulence, what you're feeling is air rubbing on air. A current of air, much like a current of water, is moving next to faster or slower air...or air moving in a different direction. Where currents of air moving in different directions meet, a boundary of turbulence sometimes develops. It's a little like the swirling or eddy's you see in a stream, and the result is very much the same as if you were to ride down the stream on a raft or small boat. The ripples and bumps you might feel on the raft are akin to what you experience in the airplane. You can feel them, but they're not dangerous. If you think about what's going on, it's nothing more than a very sturdy airplane moving through air.

I described a worse-case scenario above. I realize you're looking for comfort and solace, and a worse-case scenario isn't it. However, it's honest...yes, turbulence can do bad things. No, you won't be exposed to the kind of turbulence that can do bad things. Hopefully that's the comforting part. There's dangerous turbulence, and then there's uncomfortable turbulence. Uncomfortable turbulence for most airline operations is any turbulence at all...we really do try hard to avoid it...but we're operating in the atmosphere, and it's a turbulent place.

Another way to think about it is riding on a car along a rough road. On a washboard dirt road, one might feel like the bumps and jolts are going to take the car apart. If one isn't careful, I suppose that's possible in theory. But the car is taking hard bumps from solid objects, over and over. In the air, it's a different story. There aren't any hard bumps; it's all air. Some bumps may feel hard, but all that's out there is air. Air isn't hard. The airplane has inertia and mass; it passes through the air and leaves it behind, much like turbulence.

When I was a teenager, I began spraying crops. We refer to it as aerial application, or crop dusting; using an airplane to dispense agricultural chemicals. I was young, and to keep me in line my employer had me fly formation between two experienced pilots. Me in trail of my boss, and another pilot in trail of me. We flew very close to each other. At each end of the field we would pull up and make a steep turn to return to the same field, going the other way. In that turn, sometimes I would catch the wake of the airplane ahead. The wake around the wingtip is referred to as a wingtip vortice; it's swirling air that can have the effect of moving an airplane sideways, or rolling it. A few times I found this wake in the steep turn, and even though I applied full controls to stop the roll, it pitched me over anyway. This was very disconcerting; we were only 75 to 150' above the ground in the turn to start with.

I expressed my concerns to my boss, a man who had been in the business for many years. Quite frankly, it was making me very nervous. He used two model airplanes to teach formation techniques, and picking up those same model airplanes, he proceded to show me that the airplane had inertia. Even if I flew into a vacum, he said, where there was no more lift and no more support for the airplane (a condition that doesn't really exist, of course)...the airplane still had mass and inertia. It would keep on moving forward until it came to "good air" again.

Sure, bumps occured. But the airplane didn't stop flying because of them. It passed right through, carried there by inertia that meant no matter what the airplane might encounter, it would still be there and flying a moment later when that burble of air was long gone. Just as it is in your airliner. Those aeronautical swirls and eddys that make up turbulence are under the wing for a fraction of a second and gone...the wing doesn't really care, and the airplane keeps on flying all the same. It's just air.

Does it make crews concerned? I don't care for turbulence. I don't like to be uncomfortable any more than you do. I look for places where there is little or no turbulence, and where it's safest to fly. Where it's most comfortable. I slow the airplane down in turbulence for both safety and comfort, and always respect the aircraft limitations by a wide, and healthy margin. Whomever is piloting your airplane on a given day does the same thing.

Take a deep breath. Get some air flowing over you. Look out at a distant point instead of focusing inside the airplane, if you can. Think of something that makes you feel better. Slowly let out that deep breath. Then do it again. The airplane encountered turbulence long before you boarded, and it will long after you leave. Enjoy your stay. You're safe.

Pilotinmydreams

The Discovery Channel did a series about the making of the Airbus A380 and one of the episodes had a section about stress testing the wings. Have a look at that if you can find it and you'll never worry about them snapping again. They bent the things up to destruction - you'll not believe how far they bent before they finally gave up!

archieraf

I am a nervous flyer and unfortunately have to fly quite regularly. Normally I'm travelling alone so don't have a companion to chat to and take my mind off things or grab onto when the going gets tough.

My last flight was on a Wideroe twin prop Dash aircraft, the crew are Norwegian so the first announcements are always made in Norwegian and then followed by a repeat in English. As my grasp of the Norwegian language is not great I rely on the English ones for complete information.

Half way over the North Sea to Norway there was an announcement from the flight deck which sounded different to the more familiar ones I've encountered so I listened up for the version in English. When it came I almost wished that I hadn't as it went along these lines..........."Ladies & gentlemen, we are experiencing a certain amount of icing on the aircraft which is perfectly normal but you may notice some unusual noises as pieces of ice may come off and hit the fuselage which will sound..........then there was a long pause as the member of crew was obviously struggling to find the right phrase in English to explain what it would sound like, before he continued.............something like machine gun fire hitting the fuselage"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a nervous flyer I didn't particularly wish to know what machine gun fire hitting the fuselage would sound like, nor did I have previous machine gun fire hitting a fuselage experience to compare it to - not being a war veteran. However, it did actually make me smile. It also made me think about the airmen who have flown in combat and the things that they had endured which kind of put me in my place a bit and helped me cope better with the flight.

Sometimes laughter really is the best medicine! Thanks to everyone who has shared the way they cope with being a nervous flyer, it all helps.


archieraf

G SXTY

That's priceless archieraf, thanks for sharing it with us. I fly the same aircraft type (Q400) and will have to remember that line for my own p.a. next time we get prop icing!

Like most funny noises on aeroplanes, ice being thrown off the propellers sounds a lot more dramatic than it really is. The props on the Dash have electric heating mats which are switched on whenever we are likely to encounter icing conditions. These are very effective, and ice is usually melted before it has a chance to build up. Occasionally however, ice builds quickly enough to form sizeable chunks, which are then thrown off by a combination of heat and centrifugal force. Standard procedure is then to increase prop rpm from cruise to maximum, which prevents ice re-accumulating. All perfectly harmless (you may have noticed that the fuselage has ice-protection panels in line with the props specifically for this) but it can be a bit disconcerting, particularly for nervous passengers.

My advice if you are nervous, or want to know what that funny noise is that spooks you, is to ask the cabin crew if you can visit the flightdeck at the end of the flight. Time permitting, we are all happy to have a quick chat after we've landed, and if we can help put your mind at rest, it's good PR for us and will hopefully make you feel happier next time you fly.

Flying for a living, there's a risk for us pilots of getting a bit blasé and forgetting that some of our passengers fly very rarely - and a few are absolutely terrified by the experience. Those people have my utmost sympathy.

archieraf

Glad to be able to add to your repertoire G SXTY

Thanks also for your advice and reassurance. I never like to bother the crew as I know they have plenty other things to do and I don't like to draw attention to myself and make a fuss. Much better to sit quietly (terrified) and hope the drinks trolley comes round very soon! A small glass of wine certainly helps the situation for me.

It definately helps when there are announcements to explain anything unusual or if there is going to be a bumpy spell during the flight, then I realise what is going on is normal, know what to expect and it's easier to try and keep calm, so thanks to all crews who do that. What I'm always afraid of is grabbing hold of the person sitting next to me. I almost did that recently when we suddenly hit turbulence, it was the kind that gives you that reflex action to hold on and I almost grabbed the arm of the man next to me instead of the armrest!

I take several flights every other month and some I manage to cope better than others. I do think that the increased security measures and the lack of continuity, even from one trip to the next from the same airport, add to the stress of flying these days. It's much harder to arrive at an airport and feel your able to relax prior to a flight now than it used to be.

One day I WILL enjoy a flight from start to finish.

archieraf

MNBluestater

Why are you carrying this "baggage" with you all these years. McDonnell Douglas was bought and merged with Boeing in 1997.

They don't even make DC-10's anymore, not even the McDonnell updated version, the MD-11 anymore, since Boeing bought them. Because they are gas hogs, 727's , DC10's and 747's are being phased out quite a bit, worldwide.

I wouldn't worry too much.

MNBluestater

Hi, I am an 8 year flight attendant . As most things in life, knowledge is power. Try at least to learn the basics of flight so you understand how an airplane flies and why it does what it does.

Tell the flight attendant greeting you that you are a first time flyer or skittish flyer and ask to see the pilots and say hi. Usually just putting a face to who's flying the plane is all you need. Just don't chitchat forever, they have preflight work to do, a flight plan to review and checklists to complete.

If I get questions, I tell them what I have picked up through the years, in as plain and simple language as I can, with a few smiles and jokes thrown in, if I can get away with it. You have to be able to read people. I get a piece of scratch paper, I tell them about the concept of lift, I draw a "side view" of a wing , and show the shape of the wing and how lift works. I draw a picture of an aircraft, I again tell them about drag, lift, and thrust, and how thrust pretty much gets the whole thing going, and how there is nothing like it when the aircraft is powering up on takeoff and lets loose. I pretty much avoid gravity, because, duh, people already know about that and that's what they fear anyway.

I tell them about flaps required for takeoff and landing (like how a bird flares before landing) and the spoilers that come up on landing. If I have time, I tell them about the ailerons, rudder and elevator.

As for turbulence, I ask them what they see when they run their hand through the water in the sink or the bathtub--it moves ! Or if they've watched the eddys or rapids in a river. Then I tell them that that is what air is like, it's always moving and that the plane has to fly through that.

As for emergencies, well, the most emergencies that I have had are medical in nature, and thankfully, I have always had medical personnel on board to help with the more serious stuff. I have had two engine shutdowns, precautionary, one for temp and one due to a faulty warning switch in the cockpit. 2 very short emerg briefings as a result, no big deal (in eight years of flying.)

I feel much more comfortable flying than driving to work -- at least I know that the person flying the plane isn't high on drugs, reckless, or listening to their cellphone instead of paying attention to what they're doing. Commercial pilots aren't hired for being daredevils , they're hired for their knowledge of systems, flying, common sense and coolheadedness.

Aircraft these days are highly maintained, the systems have multiple levels of redundancy, and they go through rigorous checks periodically--the whole jet gets almost dismantled in a "heavy maintenance" check. Anytime something is mechanically wrong with the plane, the Captain writes it up in the logbook--his professional responsibility--and the mechanic checks it, fixes it, signs the book that it is fixed --again, his responsibility--and the Captain has to sign off on that. It is a system of checks and balances. This all happens before the aircraft even leaves the gate.

As for weather, well, modern technology is now used to keep airlines away from storms. And even if rough air is involved, the frame is built to flex to accommodate the "bumps"--think of a Popsicle stick vs. a firm plastic tube, what is more likely to break under bending ?

Finally--you can worry, worry, worry, about anything and where does that get you ? A ruined day and fatigue and that's all. I made a pact with God a long time ago, it's all in his hands anyway, and if it's time for him to take me home, well, that's that, I can't do much about it.

So "sit back , relax, and enjoy the flight" -- hopefully that's what flying will bring you next time !

vendetta

Yeah, I'll remain in my seat for 10 hours, sure. And then I end up with a thrombosis when I get off the plane. It is no good to sit for such a long amount of time, so why are you giving that advise?

Then why are there still plane crashes? Especially in these hard financial times I worry that the airlines cut corners on safety and maintenance...