Arrogant posters
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Does anyone else among the passengers here share my concern at a few (certainly not all) of the pilots posting here?
Their dismissive comments about passengers being "idiots" and "not fit for the gene pool" for example....
This concerns me on at last two levels:
1) Is it a good idea to have such contempt for those who pay your wages? (the name Gerald Ratner comes to mind here - Google it if you don't know the story)
2) (and this is what really worries me) do these pilots take the attitude of "I am a genius who can do no wrong" into the cockpit with them? Now that, for me, is a really scary thought...
What do other passengers think?
Their dismissive comments about passengers being "idiots" and "not fit for the gene pool" for example....
This concerns me on at last two levels:
1) Is it a good idea to have such contempt for those who pay your wages? (the name Gerald Ratner comes to mind here - Google it if you don't know the story)
2) (and this is what really worries me) do these pilots take the attitude of "I am a genius who can do no wrong" into the cockpit with them? Now that, for me, is a really scary thought...
What do other passengers think?
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I am both a regular passenger AND a regular pilot. I come to this part of the forum to answer questions and pass on some of the knowledge that I have ammased over an almost 20 year career.
Whilst it is a joy to answer some passenger questions it can become frustrating when people on here choose to ignore your explanation over their own assumptions or perceptions.
I certainly treat all people (and their questions) with total resepct, up to the point where I am ignored.
RIX
Whilst it is a joy to answer some passenger questions it can become frustrating when people on here choose to ignore your explanation over their own assumptions or perceptions.
I certainly treat all people (and their questions) with total resepct, up to the point where I am ignored.
RIX
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I think we need straight talking on any forum. We need flight deck personnel to fire from the hip. We need to hear it as it is.
These folk spend a great deal of their lives and a lot of money on learning their profession before they can enter the flight deck, leave alone take command of a very expensive piece of machinery and be responsible for countless lives, in the air and on the ground.
It is also their responsibility, when on duty, to represent the company they are currently working for, dealing with the public, under those terms can be mighty frustrating I venture to suggest.
Long live the flight deck person who tells it as it is and may I always be on his/her flight.
These folk spend a great deal of their lives and a lot of money on learning their profession before they can enter the flight deck, leave alone take command of a very expensive piece of machinery and be responsible for countless lives, in the air and on the ground.
It is also their responsibility, when on duty, to represent the company they are currently working for, dealing with the public, under those terms can be mighty frustrating I venture to suggest.
Long live the flight deck person who tells it as it is and may I always be on his/her flight.
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I feel there is a difference between "telling it like it is" and abusive and derogatory language.
I certainly don't see language like this on other forums I frequent.
I certainly don't see language like this on other forums I frequent.
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Does anyone else among the passengers here share my concern at a few (certainly not all) of the pilots posting here?
Their dismissive comments about passengers being "idiots" and "not fit for the gene pool" for example
Is it a good idea to have such contempt for those who pay your wages
I work in a service industry, where the above correlation regarding my wages is used, in similar circumstances the customer is usually correct in about 10% of disputes. In fact in a lot of circumstances if we were to "do what the customer wants" we would be breaking the law.
Nor do individuals have the right to speak on others behalfs. If I have a concern I will raise it on my own behalf.
(and this is what really worries me) do these pilots take the attitude of "I am a genius who can do no wrong" into the cockpit with them? Now that, for me, is a really scary thought
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent.
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@west lakes -sorry, I cannot quote here for some reason.
- I did not say it was right for pax to make insulting and abusive comments either. If they do, should the "professionals" lower themselves to the same level?
- Whether the customer is correct or not, abusing him is not the answer. Certainly in a one on one situation (unlike here) it would simply be a provocation and make matters worse. (I also work in a service industry by the way, like most people these days). If someone really feels such contempt for his customers, perhaps he is in the wrong business?
- I did not say it was right for pax to make insulting and abusive comments either. If they do, should the "professionals" lower themselves to the same level?
- Whether the customer is correct or not, abusing him is not the answer. Certainly in a one on one situation (unlike here) it would simply be a provocation and make matters worse. (I also work in a service industry by the way, like most people these days). If someone really feels such contempt for his customers, perhaps he is in the wrong business?
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"I feel there is a difference between "telling it like it is" and abusive and derogatory language."
Hi Machino61.
Would you be able to give an example?
I can honestly say that as far as I can see, all the friends, collegues and fellow Pilots I've flown with hold professional pride in the highest regard. From my own experience, the crew I've flown with really value every single person that gets on board in so much as their safety (which is our job granted) and their custom. It's a bit cutting to assume that if you have had a direct response to a question on this forum, then we are all a bunch of cowboys in the flight deck. I would imagine than any genuine well meaning question would receive such a response so long as a disagreement didn't take place whether you're a passenger or not. Just remember this is an Industry Forum not an official Airline Public enquiry website, where although all are welcome, an honest and open viewpoint can be expressed. It's part of the attraction of the site. It's the online equivalent of walking into an airline crew room at the end of the eve after everyone's done 6 sectors
As a comparison, I know of several cases where public have spoken to flight crew as if they were dirt under their shoes. Most crew sigh, take it in their stride and accept that it's a product of today's consumer market. I suspect that today's low cost market has driven the attitude the general public has of air travel down, owing to the fact they are treated like cattle by said airlines.
Hi Machino61.
Would you be able to give an example?
I can honestly say that as far as I can see, all the friends, collegues and fellow Pilots I've flown with hold professional pride in the highest regard. From my own experience, the crew I've flown with really value every single person that gets on board in so much as their safety (which is our job granted) and their custom. It's a bit cutting to assume that if you have had a direct response to a question on this forum, then we are all a bunch of cowboys in the flight deck. I would imagine than any genuine well meaning question would receive such a response so long as a disagreement didn't take place whether you're a passenger or not. Just remember this is an Industry Forum not an official Airline Public enquiry website, where although all are welcome, an honest and open viewpoint can be expressed. It's part of the attraction of the site. It's the online equivalent of walking into an airline crew room at the end of the eve after everyone's done 6 sectors
As a comparison, I know of several cases where public have spoken to flight crew as if they were dirt under their shoes. Most crew sigh, take it in their stride and accept that it's a product of today's consumer market. I suspect that today's low cost market has driven the attitude the general public has of air travel down, owing to the fact they are treated like cattle by said airlines.
Last edited by Wireless; 8th Sep 2008 at 09:37.
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I think a part of the problem is in perception
I had a "discussion" with a customer a few months ago where I was actually exceeding our minimum requirements, to be met with a very forceful comment of "you can't do that"
I then had to explain in measured tones that I had every legal right to do what I proposed, I did not have to consult or actually tell the customer either. Customer then got angry having it explained as it is.
There is (still?) a perception that the customer is always right, in a lot of cases where legislation is involved that is not the case.
A case in point is the "Stupid Passenger Comments" thread in Cabin Crew.
The title is perhaps over the top, but the thread starter chose that. But look at it this way: -
Was it intended to mean primarally
Stupid passengers & their comments
or Passenger's stupid comments.
The first is perceived as insulting, the second is the probable intent.
(and don't tell me that anyone in any industry doesn't make a bit of comment about the unusual or off the wall conversations we all have with customers)
I had a "discussion" with a customer a few months ago where I was actually exceeding our minimum requirements, to be met with a very forceful comment of "you can't do that"
I then had to explain in measured tones that I had every legal right to do what I proposed, I did not have to consult or actually tell the customer either. Customer then got angry having it explained as it is.
There is (still?) a perception that the customer is always right, in a lot of cases where legislation is involved that is not the case.
A case in point is the "Stupid Passenger Comments" thread in Cabin Crew.
The title is perhaps over the top, but the thread starter chose that. But look at it this way: -
Was it intended to mean primarally
Stupid passengers & their comments
or Passenger's stupid comments.
The first is perceived as insulting, the second is the probable intent.
(and don't tell me that anyone in any industry doesn't make a bit of comment about the unusual or off the wall conversations we all have with customers)
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I feel the problems are caused when people with nothing more than a few "hours" on Microsoft FSX come to the "Rumour & News" section of the forum and give unqualified comments about something they clearly know nothing about.
If the questions or comments were posted in the Passenger/SLF part of the forum we would probably see less lashings by the flight crew.
That said I am not defending abusive comments in any way however, if you take a look through some of the postings especially in the Spanair accident or the Ryanir Depressurisation incident then you will see how frustrating it can be for the flight crews.
In my own field of expertise ( Film sound engineering ) I sometimes feel like strangling people who spout off about a subject they clearly know nothing about.
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Originally Posted by marchino641
Is it a good idea to have such contempt for those who pay your wages?
Jsl
Last edited by jetset lady; 8th Sep 2008 at 12:44.
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Respect for paying wages.
I tip my hat to ya guvna. Shine your shoes Sir?
What about those involved in the BA777 incident. Wonder if they had the same attitude towards their Pilots and Cabin crew after they came away unharmed. Respect is a two way thing after all. I don't know of anyone I work with who has contempt for the passengers we carry. Quite the opposite. We go through an extraordinary amount of training to make sure you're safe after all. Respect is a two way street.
I tip my hat to ya guvna. Shine your shoes Sir?
What about those involved in the BA777 incident. Wonder if they had the same attitude towards their Pilots and Cabin crew after they came away unharmed. Respect is a two way thing after all. I don't know of anyone I work with who has contempt for the passengers we carry. Quite the opposite. We go through an extraordinary amount of training to make sure you're safe after all. Respect is a two way street.
Last edited by Wireless; 8th Sep 2008 at 12:29.
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I was pondering further over lunch and came up with this scenario
So you are the MD of a new airline, amongst all the other bits you need (aircraft, sales, routes etc.) you need crew.
So how many do you need and why?
Flight deck, well you need a pilot, but you think well trains and other forms of transport only have one driver, but you need two on the flight deck for passenger safety and because various legislation tells you you need them.
Cabin Crew, well you only fly short sectors, ground staff can get folks to their seats so why do you need cabin crew, for safety reasons and because legislation says you do.
Fine, now the flight crew have to be "locked" in by legislation so rarely are seen by the passengers. In fact the only evidence they exist is if they are seen through the F/D window on boarding and in the form of disembodied voices on the PA system.
So you've got some employees in the cabin, legally they are there to ensure passenger safety so, in theory, could sit around during the flight doing nothing else.
Ah, but you think, lets give them something else to do!
Lets get them to give/sell food to the passengers
Lets get them to sell duty free to the passengers
Lets get them to manage the IFE system
as if we do this it might encourage passengers to fly with us again.
Silly I know, but at the end of the day the prime reason crews are on aircraft is to ensure your safety not to serve your every need - a fact that a lot of passengers either don't know or if they use this site seem to forget
So you are the MD of a new airline, amongst all the other bits you need (aircraft, sales, routes etc.) you need crew.
So how many do you need and why?
Flight deck, well you need a pilot, but you think well trains and other forms of transport only have one driver, but you need two on the flight deck for passenger safety and because various legislation tells you you need them.
Cabin Crew, well you only fly short sectors, ground staff can get folks to their seats so why do you need cabin crew, for safety reasons and because legislation says you do.
Fine, now the flight crew have to be "locked" in by legislation so rarely are seen by the passengers. In fact the only evidence they exist is if they are seen through the F/D window on boarding and in the form of disembodied voices on the PA system.
So you've got some employees in the cabin, legally they are there to ensure passenger safety so, in theory, could sit around during the flight doing nothing else.
Ah, but you think, lets give them something else to do!
Lets get them to give/sell food to the passengers
Lets get them to sell duty free to the passengers
Lets get them to manage the IFE system
as if we do this it might encourage passengers to fly with us again.
Silly I know, but at the end of the day the prime reason crews are on aircraft is to ensure your safety not to serve your every need - a fact that a lot of passengers either don't know or if they use this site seem to forget
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Arrogant posters
Do any of the aviation professionals here share my concern at most of the people posting here who think because they have taken a few passenger flights are now fit to act as aircraft accident investigators and pronounce opinions on safety issues as they do, all the while their anonymous background absolutely shielding the fact that they don't know what they are talking about?
This forum could quite as easily been a Doctor professional discussion forum. We would end up with people pretending they are Doctors advising on procedures, suggesting new ideas, demanding safety changes, and all the while they are really an accountant, or a dog trainer, or a plumber. Some of these plumbers can pretend they are fully trained pathologists, able to examine in minute detail what went wrong in the surgical disaster. Look at some of the threads in Rumours and News for evidence of non-professionals insisting they know better how to operate aeroplanes than professionals, or considering themselves to be 'accident investigators'. They take over the discussions completely!
That is why certain professionals get so impatient with these idiots- it gets dangerous giving them such a loud voice. But unless we have a forum where access is tightly controlled, people can get away with this nonsense.
As for paying my wages, passengers give me no pay! My employer pays me to complete the task allotted to me, which I do. Passengers pay the airlines, not the employees. When we understand that, passengers will be happier, and the employees will be happier. Try telling a Ryanair stewardess that you pay her wages. What sort of answer do you think you will get?
This forum could quite as easily been a Doctor professional discussion forum. We would end up with people pretending they are Doctors advising on procedures, suggesting new ideas, demanding safety changes, and all the while they are really an accountant, or a dog trainer, or a plumber. Some of these plumbers can pretend they are fully trained pathologists, able to examine in minute detail what went wrong in the surgical disaster. Look at some of the threads in Rumours and News for evidence of non-professionals insisting they know better how to operate aeroplanes than professionals, or considering themselves to be 'accident investigators'. They take over the discussions completely!
That is why certain professionals get so impatient with these idiots- it gets dangerous giving them such a loud voice. But unless we have a forum where access is tightly controlled, people can get away with this nonsense.
As for paying my wages, passengers give me no pay! My employer pays me to complete the task allotted to me, which I do. Passengers pay the airlines, not the employees. When we understand that, passengers will be happier, and the employees will be happier. Try telling a Ryanair stewardess that you pay her wages. What sort of answer do you think you will get?
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Sadly there are as many if not more SLF in here who too are arrogant and feel that as armchair pilots on MS Flight Sim they feel they have all the answers and can argue with the true professionals! And heaven forbid they have a golfing buddy who is a pilot because then they have all the ammunition they need!!!!!
As for pilots thinking most passengers are idiots, well they are not the ones who generally have to put up with the passengers from take off to touch down so they are more than likely just basing that assumption on what has been told about a few by the cabin crew inbetween coffee runs. Now only the cabin crew have the right to refer to all passengers as idiots!!!!
As for pilots thinking most passengers are idiots, well they are not the ones who generally have to put up with the passengers from take off to touch down so they are more than likely just basing that assumption on what has been told about a few by the cabin crew inbetween coffee runs. Now only the cabin crew have the right to refer to all passengers as idiots!!!!
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I passenger a lot. I sit there in horror watching people holding up papers during the safety briefing, reading, wiping kids noses, looking out of the window etc, while the cabin crew gamely go through the full briefing pantomime. They don't even look around and clock the nearest exit! These people I would call fools, idiots, twerps. It's something that could save your life. They fulfil the definition of those words. Come the time they actually need the emergency equipment in anger, they are confused sheep! 'What do I do with the oxygen mask?' 'Do I pull it, untangle it, stand up and breath into it?' 'Where's my nearest exit?' And as for Hadow seeing to his son first? Such people shouldn't be allowed out without a helmet on with a message on it 'please take care of me because I'm a bit stupid!'.
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Not only commercial pax I can assure you!!
Try the military side !!
A5hole senior officers who treated AAC helicopters as taxis.
So bad that observers had to open the door for them and if the rotor height allowed salute !!
Then one day there was a great big inclined drive failure - the taxi driver did an amazing job and came to rest albeit on his side at the edge of a field.
Praise for outstanding airmanship ??
Not a chance - "Could you radio for my staff car"
A5hole senior officers who treated AAC helicopters as taxis.
So bad that observers had to open the door for them and if the rotor height allowed salute !!
Then one day there was a great big inclined drive failure - the taxi driver did an amazing job and came to rest albeit on his side at the edge of a field.
Praise for outstanding airmanship ??
Not a chance - "Could you radio for my staff car"
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That's true. It is annoying and dispiriting for the crew when all they see is the backs of the newspapers during the safety demo. Also what winds me up is everyone getting up before we've cut the fuel, killed the fires and flicked the pax belts sign. Bloody funny if we had a brake hyd failure (happened to me once) and we jumped the stand haha!
Please don't don't do these things
Please don't don't do these things