Overwing Exits and Frequent Fliers?
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Overwing Exits and Frequent Fliers?
I was positioning (in uniform) recently between ORD / ATL on American and I was interested to see that they put both of us crew at the overwing exit on a little Embraer jet thing. I position 5 - 10 times a month and it made me think that here was an airline that perhaps thought safety AND put it into practice??? It got me to wondering just how many airlines out there have a policy to put deadhead or positioning crew in these safety critical seats?
It appears that there are very few ..... a colleague relates that he was similarly positioning with a large German airline and mentioned at check-in that he was current 747 crew and he was given a seat in the emergency exit row. When he got to the aircraft however he was contacted and moved to a centre aisle seat to be replaced as a Frequent Flyer who was overweight and had requested that seat! Clearly commercial interest TOTALLY over-rode any thought about safety in that particular operation.
Putting a trained cabin or flight deck member on these seats would surely enhance safety enormously in the event of an evacuation or security event so why not prompt your safety department to put their money where their mouth is?
Does anybody know if their airline has any policy regarding these seats (other than putting Frequent Flyers in them?)
It appears that there are very few ..... a colleague relates that he was similarly positioning with a large German airline and mentioned at check-in that he was current 747 crew and he was given a seat in the emergency exit row. When he got to the aircraft however he was contacted and moved to a centre aisle seat to be replaced as a Frequent Flyer who was overweight and had requested that seat! Clearly commercial interest TOTALLY over-rode any thought about safety in that particular operation.
Putting a trained cabin or flight deck member on these seats would surely enhance safety enormously in the event of an evacuation or security event so why not prompt your safety department to put their money where their mouth is?
Does anybody know if their airline has any policy regarding these seats (other than putting Frequent Flyers in them?)
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You will find that some of the large, and not so large, US airlines are offering those Exit Row seats to those that will pay extra for them?? How's that for safety??
The rule of speaking and understanding?? the language etc., and the ability to perform the exit opening apparently still apply but current and qualified people may not necessarily be the ones in those seats.
The mighty dollar wins over common sense, yet again.
Speedbird 48.
The rule of speaking and understanding?? the language etc., and the ability to perform the exit opening apparently still apply but current and qualified people may not necessarily be the ones in those seats.
The mighty dollar wins over common sense, yet again.
Speedbird 48.
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I position 5 - 10 times a month and it made me think that here was an airline that perhaps thought safety AND put it into practice???
Many frequent flyers do your number of sectors in a week, are highly intelligent, are familiar with the type of aircraft they are on, have been briefed on the operation of the exit and hold leadership roles in their organisations.
So tell me what extra qualities positioning pilots have over these kind of people?
You won't be competing with me, as I sit in the front cabin, but I reckon I would do as good a job as you, in following the cabin crew instructions.
Many frequent flyers do your number of sectors in a week, are highly intelligent, are familiar with the type of aircraft they are on, have been briefed on the operation of the exit and hold leadership roles in their organisations.
So tell me what extra qualities positioning pilots have over these kind of people?
You won't be competing with me, as I sit in the front cabin, but I reckon I would do as good a job as you, in following the cabin crew instructions.
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"Many frequent flyers do your number of sectors in a week, are highly intelligent ...." (Final 3 greens)
So all those Emergency Training days are a waste of time ..... all we have to do is sit and listen to the Cabin Crew briefing
(my post refers to "trained cabin or flight deck member" and is not a "pilot" thing nor does it imply that Frequent Flyers lack leadership skills or intelligence)
So all those Emergency Training days are a waste of time ..... all we have to do is sit and listen to the Cabin Crew briefing
(my post refers to "trained cabin or flight deck member" and is not a "pilot" thing nor does it imply that Frequent Flyers lack leadership skills or intelligence)
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Originally Posted by Final 3 Greens
Many frequent flyers do your number of sectors in a week, are highly intelligent, are familiar with the type of aircraft they are on, have been briefed on the operation of the exit and hold leadership roles in their organisations.
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Some frequent flyers do know what to do. I fly up to 300 times a year as a commercial passenger. I do know how to open the door. On many airlines you will find errors on the safety cards if you care to look.
The FAA overwing exit routine is particularly irritating as we killed enough passengers in Manchester 85 to find out about that. Still, the airlines won't change because the FAA does not require it.
Most major western airlines have a policy now for frequent flyers. Airlines always retain the right to deny you access to such rows if you do not speak the native language, are unfit etc.
If you really wanted to make a difference to this type of exit, perhaps you would be kind enough to brief those of us sitting there exactly what exit commands you are going to give us to open the door in the first place.
"The color of the exit lighting may vary." Too bloody right it varies, it varies to tell you that there is a door there, but please do not impart useful information like that into the passengers! Just let them think that it is normal.
Next time you get on BA out of LGW on a 737, try spotting at least five errors on the card. This card is somewhat worse than the last version....
Try standing up in a Dash 8 at the underwing exit and opening the door, unless you are a dwarf, you won't manage it if you are my height. However, the card shows that is what you have to do...
Try the hand positions on half the cards, you end up with your arms crossed and dropping the door...
I have flown on around 75 airlines on every continent. On Air Gambia, the used to open the overwing exits during the stops in Banjul as a form of air conditioning...but at least they had a flight engineer to put them back in again.
You know Victor, it really should be easy!
Rant off.
The FAA overwing exit routine is particularly irritating as we killed enough passengers in Manchester 85 to find out about that. Still, the airlines won't change because the FAA does not require it.
Most major western airlines have a policy now for frequent flyers. Airlines always retain the right to deny you access to such rows if you do not speak the native language, are unfit etc.
If you really wanted to make a difference to this type of exit, perhaps you would be kind enough to brief those of us sitting there exactly what exit commands you are going to give us to open the door in the first place.
"The color of the exit lighting may vary." Too bloody right it varies, it varies to tell you that there is a door there, but please do not impart useful information like that into the passengers! Just let them think that it is normal.
Next time you get on BA out of LGW on a 737, try spotting at least five errors on the card. This card is somewhat worse than the last version....
Try standing up in a Dash 8 at the underwing exit and opening the door, unless you are a dwarf, you won't manage it if you are my height. However, the card shows that is what you have to do...
Try the hand positions on half the cards, you end up with your arms crossed and dropping the door...
I have flown on around 75 airlines on every continent. On Air Gambia, the used to open the overwing exits during the stops in Banjul as a form of air conditioning...but at least they had a flight engineer to put them back in again.
You know Victor, it really should be easy!
Rant off.
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Strikes me as a " I'm crew and deserve more legroom/comfort than the slf complaint"
Not all frequent flyers ignore the safety briefing. I frequently fly three legs in one journey, same airline, same aircraft and sometimes same crew. I listen attentively each time.
If sat in the emergency exit row I also refresh my memory by reading AGAIN the safety leaflet provided.
s37
Not all frequent flyers ignore the safety briefing. I frequently fly three legs in one journey, same airline, same aircraft and sometimes same crew. I listen attentively each time.
If sat in the emergency exit row I also refresh my memory by reading AGAIN the safety leaflet provided.
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If you really wanted to make a difference to this type of exit, perhaps you would be kind enough to brief those of us sitting there exactly what exit commands you are going to give us to open the door in the first place.
On the flip side:
I´ve flown Iberia and seen mothers with babies placed in these rows with the biggest joke being they were told to put bags in the overhead bins but babies on laps were fine
BA would on a good day tell you to read the instructions on the seat back in front of you (no mention of don´t open in the event of fire) or on a bad day say "Do you realise you are in an emergency exit row?" answer "Yes" BA: "Ok, good".
As for safety cards.... I´ve always thought there should be a supplemental card for those seats in emergency exit rows....
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I think in any emergency situation everyones performance varies, nobody knows how they will go on the day.
I think what people would be hoping for is that in an emergency when the S hits the fan, that at least the basic (albeit robotic) training of crew will kick in. Not to say that any joe blogs isnt cabable of doing it, its just that sometimes reversionary training seems to help.
From many incident reports, we can see that even the best highly trainined cabin crew stuff up at times. We have also seen that able bodied passengers at times can get in the way despite their best intentions.
I think the advantage of having a crew member be it pilot or otherwise (aircraft and airline specific ??) in those seats would be an advantage. They would be in tune with the rest of the cabin procedures, the specific warning phrases that some airlines use to evaluate the situation, and the evacuation provisions. Also they may be more aware of the specific dangers of opening exits into external threats.
After having listened to conversations between frequent flyers, it is amazing with some of the crap they come up with about aeroplane operations and performance!
I think what people would be hoping for is that in an emergency when the S hits the fan, that at least the basic (albeit robotic) training of crew will kick in. Not to say that any joe blogs isnt cabable of doing it, its just that sometimes reversionary training seems to help.
From many incident reports, we can see that even the best highly trainined cabin crew stuff up at times. We have also seen that able bodied passengers at times can get in the way despite their best intentions.
I think the advantage of having a crew member be it pilot or otherwise (aircraft and airline specific ??) in those seats would be an advantage. They would be in tune with the rest of the cabin procedures, the specific warning phrases that some airlines use to evaluate the situation, and the evacuation provisions. Also they may be more aware of the specific dangers of opening exits into external threats.
After having listened to conversations between frequent flyers, it is amazing with some of the crap they come up with about aeroplane operations and performance!
What would pilot or cabin crew do if a passenger were to complain that an overweight person sitting in an overwing exit row was a potential hazard?
Are we saying that they couldn't open the door (in good time) or that they wouldn't get through the exit at all?
Mickjoebill
Are we saying that they couldn't open the door (in good time) or that they wouldn't get through the exit at all?
Mickjoebill
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Clarence Oveur
How do you know that the people who ignore the briefings are frequent travellers?
What an illogical comment.
Offa
So all those Emergency Training days are a waste of time ..... all we have to do is sit and listen to the Cabin Crew briefing
I dare say that special forces training and fitness levels would even further improve the relatively safety of the aircraft, in fasct why don't the airlines carry a spare pilot on short haul flights, just in case both crew die?
The authorities mandate parameters and meeting those assures a level of safety that is acceptable to the public.
So in this context, the emergency training days are superfluous, so long as the crew and the people sitting in the emergency exit rows meet the requirements of the regulations.
How do you know that the people who ignore the briefings are frequent travellers?
What an illogical comment.
Offa
So all those Emergency Training days are a waste of time ..... all we have to do is sit and listen to the Cabin Crew briefing
I dare say that special forces training and fitness levels would even further improve the relatively safety of the aircraft, in fasct why don't the airlines carry a spare pilot on short haul flights, just in case both crew die?
The authorities mandate parameters and meeting those assures a level of safety that is acceptable to the public.
So in this context, the emergency training days are superfluous, so long as the crew and the people sitting in the emergency exit rows meet the requirements of the regulations.
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After having listened to conversations between frequent flyers, it is amazing with some of the crap they come up with about aeroplane operations and performance!
Having listened to crew talking, I've also heard some amazing crap about aeroplane operations and performance.
Remind me about cabin crew commanded evacuations due to tail pipe fires?
Having listened to crew talking, I've also heard some amazing crap about aeroplane operations and performance.
Remind me about cabin crew commanded evacuations due to tail pipe fires?
It is indeed despicable that some carriers charge extra for these seats, as if it is some sort of bonus to be there. In fact it is an obligation to fellow passengers. It has spread through the holiday charter world. Do Virgin Atlantic still do it ? In any reasonable aviation world the CAA would have stamped this one out pronto.
I know that some pax (frequent or not) pay no attention to the safety briefing, but on the other hand there are a number of us who do, and who engage our fellow passengers who make comments about it being "useless" in informed discussion on the point (which tends to go along the lines of "if you were flying GA with me and I said "hey ho the checklist is useless, never had a problem", how confident would you feel).
If you are cabin crew you may have spotted me one day, I'm the one who when you say "life vest" actually feels under the seat to see it is there
Like D I above I like spotting the errors in the documented procedures, or just the plain stupities.
A very few carriers placard the overwing exits with their weight, although it's an awkward position to get into only to be surprised you have to swing half a hundredweight.
Even fewer have any clear instruction to look out of the window first to see if the exit route is clear of fire. Now there are not many plaudits for Ryanair around, but this is one thing they do mark up.
In passing, if you are qualified crew, is the most effective position to be at the exit where you will be first out and then gone from the scene ? Should you not be maybe one row behind, from where you can direct the mass in how to get through the exit most efficiently.
I know that some pax (frequent or not) pay no attention to the safety briefing, but on the other hand there are a number of us who do, and who engage our fellow passengers who make comments about it being "useless" in informed discussion on the point (which tends to go along the lines of "if you were flying GA with me and I said "hey ho the checklist is useless, never had a problem", how confident would you feel).
If you are cabin crew you may have spotted me one day, I'm the one who when you say "life vest" actually feels under the seat to see it is there
Like D I above I like spotting the errors in the documented procedures, or just the plain stupities.
A very few carriers placard the overwing exits with their weight, although it's an awkward position to get into only to be surprised you have to swing half a hundredweight.
Even fewer have any clear instruction to look out of the window first to see if the exit route is clear of fire. Now there are not many plaudits for Ryanair around, but this is one thing they do mark up.
In passing, if you are qualified crew, is the most effective position to be at the exit where you will be first out and then gone from the scene ? Should you not be maybe one row behind, from where you can direct the mass in how to get through the exit most efficiently.
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Having listened to crew talking, I've also heard some amazing crap about aeroplane operations and performance
Actually I reckon all Frequent flyers should be directed to PPRUNE, after a couple of sessions reading this, they will be fit to operate in lieu of cabin crew, and pretty soon fly the jets too!
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A very few carriers placard the overwing exits with their weight, although it's an awkward position to get into only to be surprised you have to swing half a hundredweight.
26kgs is a figure that comes to mind for the 737 - think it was Luxair, but can't exactly remember - it was a few years since I saw the placard.
Talking of Ryanair, they operate the 737 NG and the overwing exit swings up and out when operated - this strikes me as being much better than having to pull, twist, push and chuck in the classics and the minibuses.
26kgs is a figure that comes to mind for the 737 - think it was Luxair, but can't exactly remember - it was a few years since I saw the placard.
Talking of Ryanair, they operate the 737 NG and the overwing exit swings up and out when operated - this strikes me as being much better than having to pull, twist, push and chuck in the classics and the minibuses.
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Actually I reckon all Frequent flyers should be directed to PPRUNE, after a couple of sessions reading this, they will be fit to operate in lieu of cabin crew, and pretty soon fly the jets too!
Well I wouldn't go so far, but I don't reckon I'd command an evac due to a tail pipe fire and I could feed the dog in a bus.
Well I wouldn't go so far, but I don't reckon I'd command an evac due to a tail pipe fire and I could feed the dog in a bus.
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What would pilot or cabin crew do if a passenger were to complain that an overweight person sitting in an overwing exit row was a potential hazard?
I probably should have said something, but it's really not my job is it?
BMI are very good at asking if you're comfortable sitting in an exit row, and will ensure you've read the instructions for sitting there. Have experienced BMI crew moving passengers away from exit rows if they were unfit to operate the door (too young, old, fat or stupid).
BMI does not charge extra for the exit row.
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Well 3 Greens, there are many ways to spot a FF. The manifest is one. Annoyance at not being considered on par with professional crew is another.
Familiarity breeds contempt.
Familiarity breeds contempt.