Overwing Exits and Frequent Fliers?
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I probably should have said ...outrage at not being considered on par with professional crew is another....
I would seem that there are some who are so self-absorbed with their own self-importance, that even suggesting that a trained individual is preferable to a non-trained individual, is considered a personal insult.
There are some rather absurd arguments put forward in an apparent "you are not better than me" attempt.
3 Greens,
You seem to believe that this whole argument is revolving around you, despite it being about FF in general.
What psychological judgement would that lead to?
I would seem that there are some who are so self-absorbed with their own self-importance, that even suggesting that a trained individual is preferable to a non-trained individual, is considered a personal insult.
There are some rather absurd arguments put forward in an apparent "you are not better than me" attempt.
3 Greens,
You seem to believe that this whole argument is revolving around you, despite it being about FF in general.
What psychological judgement would that lead to?
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Clarence
I hate to be the one to point this out to you, but crews are not professionals, although they are paid for doing their job. Tradesmen if you like.
So if it is a matter or establishing "who is best", to interpret your comments, why would I worry about someone's perception of whether I was on a par with a job that requires 2 GCSEs as an academic qualification and which is not included in a recognised profession, when I am a member of two professions?
I said in post #4 "you won't be competing with me, as I sit in the front cabin, but I reckon I would do as good a job as you, in following the cabin crew instructions."
Along with OFBSLF and others, I reckon that impact of most FQTVs sitting in a window seat is pretty miniscule and as the licensing authorities seem to think that any able bodied (presumably mentally competent) person can open an over wing exit.
As others have said on this thread, we appear to have crew trying to use smoke and mirrors to mystify something that is pretty straightforward.
The regs say what is necessary, end of.
I hate to be the one to point this out to you, but crews are not professionals, although they are paid for doing their job. Tradesmen if you like.
So if it is a matter or establishing "who is best", to interpret your comments, why would I worry about someone's perception of whether I was on a par with a job that requires 2 GCSEs as an academic qualification and which is not included in a recognised profession, when I am a member of two professions?
I said in post #4 "you won't be competing with me, as I sit in the front cabin, but I reckon I would do as good a job as you, in following the cabin crew instructions."
Along with OFBSLF and others, I reckon that impact of most FQTVs sitting in a window seat is pretty miniscule and as the licensing authorities seem to think that any able bodied (presumably mentally competent) person can open an over wing exit.
As others have said on this thread, we appear to have crew trying to use smoke and mirrors to mystify something that is pretty straightforward.
The regs say what is necessary, end of.
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Hello,
ChristiaanJ wrote:
- If you're right, shouldn't be aircraft seat belts be designed like car safety belts?
This is a very interesting remark and a logic answer.
So ...are the cars safety belts wrong designed or instead the aircraft passengers safety belts ????
Regards.
... well it's a well known fact in an emergency that passengers go to unfasten their seat belt as tho they were in a car, as its the only one they are familiar with.
- If you're right, shouldn't be aircraft seat belts be designed like car safety belts?
This is a very interesting remark and a logic answer.
So ...are the cars safety belts wrong designed or instead the aircraft passengers safety belts ????
Regards.
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I hate to be the one to point this out to you, but crews are not professionals, although they are paid for doing their job. Tradesmen if you like.
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just tradesmen now?
What's wrong with being a tradesman? Its an honourable occupation.
If you think that length of training is an arbiter...
How many years training to be a doctor?
How many years training to be an accountant?
How many years training to be psychiatrist?
What's wrong with being a tradesman? Its an honourable occupation.
If you think that length of training is an arbiter...
How many years training to be a doctor?
How many years training to be an accountant?
How many years training to be psychiatrist?
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What is wrong with you? You were the one who was making the implication there was something wrong with it by stating air crew are not professionals...I give up, you are obviously posting on here just to wind up as many people as possible 
Last edited by perkin; 27th Jul 2007 at 18:45. Reason: spelling
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Perkin
OBFSLF has already pointed out that you misrepresent things.
It seems to me that you do not read the comments properly before you answer.
It was Clarence Oveur who suggested that frequent travellers feel a sense of outrage at not being on a par with 'professional' crew.
I am pointing out that being operating crew of an aircraft is not considered a profession - fact.
I also asked the the question why, as a professional, I would worry about a non professional's perception. Answer, I don't particularly. Neither do I look down on them either.
My opinion is, along with others here, that the impact of most FQTVs sitting in a window seat is pretty miniscule and the licensing authorities seem to think that any able bodied (presumably mentally competent) person can open an over wing exit.
And for the complete avoidance of doubt, I very rarely sit in an overwing exit as I tend to travel business class (where available), so I don't have a vested interest.
OBFSLF has already pointed out that you misrepresent things.
It seems to me that you do not read the comments properly before you answer.
It was Clarence Oveur who suggested that frequent travellers feel a sense of outrage at not being on a par with 'professional' crew.
I am pointing out that being operating crew of an aircraft is not considered a profession - fact.
I also asked the the question why, as a professional, I would worry about a non professional's perception. Answer, I don't particularly. Neither do I look down on them either.
My opinion is, along with others here, that the impact of most FQTVs sitting in a window seat is pretty miniscule and the licensing authorities seem to think that any able bodied (presumably mentally competent) person can open an over wing exit.
And for the complete avoidance of doubt, I very rarely sit in an overwing exit as I tend to travel business class (where available), so I don't have a vested interest.
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According to the Cambridge dictionary a profession is:
and a tradesman is:
Now you decide which applies to an aircraft crew...
any type of work which needs special training or a particular skill, often one which is respected because it involves a high level of education
someone who works in a trade which needs skill at using your hands, usually in the building industry
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Those are two poor definitions, over simple.
The following (from Wikipedia) is a good stab......
A professional is a worker required to possess a large body of knowledge derived from extensive academic study (usually tertiary), with the training almost always formalized.
Professions are at least to a degree self-regulating, in that they control the training and evaluation processes that admit new persons to the field, and in judging whether the work done by their members is up to standard. This differs from other kinds of work where regulation (if considered necessary) is imposed by the state, or where official quality standards are often lacking. Professions have some historical links to Guilds in these regards.
Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace - they are expected to utilize their independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities.
This holds true even if they are employees instead of working on their own.
Typically a professional provides a service (in exchange for payment or salary), in accordance with established protocols for licensing, ethics, procedures, standards of service and training / certification.
The following (from Wikipedia) is a good stab......
A professional is a worker required to possess a large body of knowledge derived from extensive academic study (usually tertiary), with the training almost always formalized.
Professions are at least to a degree self-regulating, in that they control the training and evaluation processes that admit new persons to the field, and in judging whether the work done by their members is up to standard. This differs from other kinds of work where regulation (if considered necessary) is imposed by the state, or where official quality standards are often lacking. Professions have some historical links to Guilds in these regards.
Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace - they are expected to utilize their independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities.
This holds true even if they are employees instead of working on their own.
Typically a professional provides a service (in exchange for payment or salary), in accordance with established protocols for licensing, ethics, procedures, standards of service and training / certification.
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Some airliner crashes are survivable; and it is toward survivable crashes that I address the following comments. In no way should they be construed as critical of the bravery of any female.
It only speaks to their physical limitations.
IMHO Airlines abandoned the issued of passenger safety following a survivable airliner crash when they changed the status of female flight attendants, informing them they were no longer on the aircraft for the “convenience” of the passengers but for their “safety”.
There have been reports that following an airliner crash, female flight attendants were found leading passengers to safety, but in most cases it is a passenger found helping female flight attendants among others, out of the wreckage.
If the airlines employed flight attendants for the safety of passengers following a survivable crash, I strongly suggest they would not be 120 lb females.
I am a normal heterosexual male, but in this instance I would happily forgo the nubile female in favour of a 200 lb fit male who would be quite capable of dragging my 185 lb stunned arse out of a crashed airliner, and then go back for more.
Regards,
White Bear.
It only speaks to their physical limitations.
IMHO Airlines abandoned the issued of passenger safety following a survivable airliner crash when they changed the status of female flight attendants, informing them they were no longer on the aircraft for the “convenience” of the passengers but for their “safety”.
There have been reports that following an airliner crash, female flight attendants were found leading passengers to safety, but in most cases it is a passenger found helping female flight attendants among others, out of the wreckage.
If the airlines employed flight attendants for the safety of passengers following a survivable crash, I strongly suggest they would not be 120 lb females.
I am a normal heterosexual male, but in this instance I would happily forgo the nubile female in favour of a 200 lb fit male who would be quite capable of dragging my 185 lb stunned arse out of a crashed airliner, and then go back for more.
Regards,
White Bear.
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Interesting argument about the exit row seats but fairly irrelevent, these seats are for fare paying passengers so, by definition, anyone sitting there requires no special skills other than being able bodied.
As for the meaning of a 'Profession' my definition would be a career or post that requires a professional qualification ,so that would exclude cabin crew, though I don't think they would claim that their job is part of a 'profession' That said doing your job professionally is a definition that can be applied to any type of post, and most people would aspire to that. Strictly speaking I suppose that flight deck crew do not possess a professional qualification as such.
As for the meaning of a 'Profession' my definition would be a career or post that requires a professional qualification ,so that would exclude cabin crew, though I don't think they would claim that their job is part of a 'profession' That said doing your job professionally is a definition that can be applied to any type of post, and most people would aspire to that. Strictly speaking I suppose that flight deck crew do not possess a professional qualification as such.
Paxing All Over The World
F3G agreed to close the matter and SXB promptly reopened it - and that included the can of worms ... 
SBX says 'my definition' and that is important. It is also relevant that the word is currently changing it's definition in popular understanding. This has happened for understandable reasons, part being that the British political class of the 1980s undermined the words trade and tradesman. Now, everyone wants to be a professional but they choose a career that is not a profession. Hence the definition of the word migrating.
In the UK and, I suspect, many other English speaking countries, the professions are those such as medicine and the law. F3G set out a good description of why they are such. I might strive for a professional approach to my work but I am not a member of a profession. Those that think F3G is trying to antagonise have, in my view, misunderstood that he is trying to clarify the correct use of English. We all understand that words change their meanings over time and this might be one of them but the change is not complete by any means.
SBX says 'my definition' and that is important. It is also relevant that the word is currently changing it's definition in popular understanding. This has happened for understandable reasons, part being that the British political class of the 1980s undermined the words trade and tradesman. Now, everyone wants to be a professional but they choose a career that is not a profession. Hence the definition of the word migrating.
In the UK and, I suspect, many other English speaking countries, the professions are those such as medicine and the law. F3G set out a good description of why they are such. I might strive for a professional approach to my work but I am not a member of a profession. Those that think F3G is trying to antagonise have, in my view, misunderstood that he is trying to clarify the correct use of English. We all understand that words change their meanings over time and this might be one of them but the change is not complete by any means.
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PAXBoy
At the risk of thread drift and purely to reinforce your comment that implies some confusion over which are the professions, I thought it would be interesting to look at who can sign off a passport photo...
# Accountant
# Articled clerk of a limited company
# Assurance agent of recognised company
# Bank/building society official
# Barrister
# British Computer Society (BCS) - Professional grades which are Associate (AMBCS), Member (MBCS), Fellow (FBCS) (PN 25/2003)
# Broker
# Chairman/director of limited company
# Chemist
# Chiropodist
# Christian Science practitioner
# Commissioner of oaths
# Councillor: local or county
# Civil servant (permanent)
# Dentist
# Designated Premises Supervisors
# Director/Manager of a VAT registered Charity
# Director/Manager/Personnel Officer of a VAT registered Company
# Engineer (with professional qualifications)
# Fire service official
# Funeral director
# Insurance agent (full time) of a recognised company
# Journalist
# Justice of the Peace
# Legal secretary (members and fellows of the Institute of legal secretaries)
# Local government officer
# Manager/Personnel officer (of limited company)
# Member of Parliament
# Merchant Navy officer
# Minister of a recognised religion
# Nurse (SRN and SEN)
# Officer of the armed services (active or retired)
# Optician
# Person with honours (e.g. OBE MBE etc.)
# Personal Licensee Holders
# Photographer (professional)
# Police officer
# Post Office official
# President/Secretary of a recognised organisation
# Salvation Army officer
# Social worker
# Solicitor
# Surveyor
# Teacher, lecturer
# Trade union officer
# Travel agency (qualified)
# Valuers and auctioneers (fellow and associate members of the incorporated society)
# Warrant officers and Chief Petty Officers
Can anyone see any logic in this lot? I certainly cannot
At the risk of thread drift and purely to reinforce your comment that implies some confusion over which are the professions, I thought it would be interesting to look at who can sign off a passport photo...
# Accountant
# Articled clerk of a limited company
# Assurance agent of recognised company
# Bank/building society official
# Barrister
# British Computer Society (BCS) - Professional grades which are Associate (AMBCS), Member (MBCS), Fellow (FBCS) (PN 25/2003)
# Broker
# Chairman/director of limited company
# Chemist
# Chiropodist
# Christian Science practitioner
# Commissioner of oaths
# Councillor: local or county
# Civil servant (permanent)
# Dentist
# Designated Premises Supervisors
# Director/Manager of a VAT registered Charity
# Director/Manager/Personnel Officer of a VAT registered Company
# Engineer (with professional qualifications)
# Fire service official
# Funeral director
# Insurance agent (full time) of a recognised company
# Journalist
# Justice of the Peace
# Legal secretary (members and fellows of the Institute of legal secretaries)
# Local government officer
# Manager/Personnel officer (of limited company)
# Member of Parliament
# Merchant Navy officer
# Minister of a recognised religion
# Nurse (SRN and SEN)
# Officer of the armed services (active or retired)
# Optician
# Person with honours (e.g. OBE MBE etc.)
# Personal Licensee Holders
# Photographer (professional)
# Police officer
# Post Office official
# President/Secretary of a recognised organisation
# Salvation Army officer
# Social worker
# Solicitor
# Surveyor
# Teacher, lecturer
# Trade union officer
# Travel agency (qualified)
# Valuers and auctioneers (fellow and associate members of the incorporated society)
# Warrant officers and Chief Petty Officers
Can anyone see any logic in this lot? I certainly cannot
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F3G
No logic whatsoever.......
Bearing in mind that countersigning a passport application is a statement of the truth it's interesting that Journalists and MP's are authorised to do so
No logic whatsoever.......
Bearing in mind that countersigning a passport application is a statement of the truth it's interesting that Journalists and MP's are authorised to do so
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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"Strictly speaking I suppose that flight deck crew do not possess a professional qualification as such."
The definition of profession, according to the OED, is a calling or occupation.
Can't speak for other countries but the requirements for a British Airline Transport Pilots Licence do, according to education professionals, (there are two in my family, both well respected), satisfy the requirements for the academic side of a professional qualification. After the academic side there is a requirement for one thousand five hundred hours of relevant flying before the licence can be issued. Licence issue is only the beginning, third mates on a tramp steamer will have a Master's Ticket.
Now comes the experience required and the ability to pass six monthly and command assessment checks, not to mention a command course before said individual can be a captain.
Not sure what the basis of your reasoning is SXB, but I certainly believe, along with most, if not all my pilot colleagues, that I am a qualified professional.
The definition of profession, according to the OED, is a calling or occupation.
Can't speak for other countries but the requirements for a British Airline Transport Pilots Licence do, according to education professionals, (there are two in my family, both well respected), satisfy the requirements for the academic side of a professional qualification. After the academic side there is a requirement for one thousand five hundred hours of relevant flying before the licence can be issued. Licence issue is only the beginning, third mates on a tramp steamer will have a Master's Ticket.
Now comes the experience required and the ability to pass six monthly and command assessment checks, not to mention a command course before said individual can be a captain.
Not sure what the basis of your reasoning is SXB, but I certainly believe, along with most, if not all my pilot colleagues, that I am a qualified professional.
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I wouldn't waste too much energy on this one parabellum.
It's a poor attempt by someone who obviously feels belittled to do the same to our profession.
Obviously someone with such a sense of self-importance that he will invariably end up talking about himself or think he is being talked about. Or is that a sign of low self-esteem? The two are easily confused. You should have seen post #60 before it was edited.
It's a poor attempt by someone who obviously feels belittled to do the same to our profession.
Obviously someone with such a sense of self-importance that he will invariably end up talking about himself or think he is being talked about. Or is that a sign of low self-esteem? The two are easily confused. You should have seen post #60 before it was edited.
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Parabellum
I was simply reacting to the previous posters opinions as to what is actually a 'Profession' and I don't think anyone here is doubting the professionalism of flight crew. You can't compare the established 'professions' with flight crew, they are just too different. Most 'professions' are based on a very long period of academic study, which then forms the (most) basis of their work in the future. Flight crew have a relatively short period of study followed by a relatively long period of 'other' training and this is the reason why most definitions exclude pilots from the 'profession' group of careers.
I'm not suggesting that one is better or more valuable than the other, it's all relative. One look at many of groups which belong to a 'profession' clearly indicates that comparisons are clearly irrelevant.
Not sure what the basis of your reasoning is SXB, but I certainly believe, along with most, if not all my pilot colleagues, that I am a qualified professional.
I'm not suggesting that one is better or more valuable than the other, it's all relative. One look at many of groups which belong to a 'profession' clearly indicates that comparisons are clearly irrelevant.
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Shall we try to put this one to bed?
http://www.dfes.gov.uk/europeopen/eu...ies_list.shtml
An airline pilot is a skilled individual who takes on a good deal of responsibility and discharges his/her duties with careful judgement.
However, it is an occupation that is not a regulated profession.
http://www.dfes.gov.uk/europeopen/eu...ies_list.shtml
An airline pilot is a skilled individual who takes on a good deal of responsibility and discharges his/her duties with careful judgement.
However, it is an occupation that is not a regulated profession.