BMI diversion causes a stir in Irish media
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tracy Island
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Say Mach Number you sound like an excellent trainer,you might get a training job with 3000 hours at ryr but I think you will find most BMI FOs have more hours than you.
You were not there so why comment as a trainer on another companies SOPs which you know nothing about.
You were not there so why comment as a trainer on another companies SOPs which you know nothing about.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Ireland
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is the usual go around, panic, drama, omigod, we are all going to die scare that happens every now and then. 
But I will say that it might have been a good idea on the part of the crew to announce the go around and the diversion. A courtesy to the passengers in fact. Also the delay on the ground at Shannon may have been no more than a wait while staff were rounded up to man the jetway or whatever. But again apparently no announcement was made. That to me is a basic lack of courtesy to the customers on the part of the crew. Simple as that. It takes nothing for a quick announcement on the pa.
But I will say that it might have been a good idea on the part of the crew to announce the go around and the diversion. A courtesy to the passengers in fact. Also the delay on the ground at Shannon may have been no more than a wait while staff were rounded up to man the jetway or whatever. But again apparently no announcement was made. That to me is a basic lack of courtesy to the customers on the part of the crew. Simple as that. It takes nothing for a quick announcement on the pa.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A green and pleasant land.
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO the vast majority of "customers" are far too arrogant to listen to any PAs made by either the flight or cabin crew. The rudeness that I often face as a passenger when I dare to politely ask the couple sitting next to me to cease talking loudly during the safety brief! The avalanche of unfastening seat-belt buckles and mobile telephone received SMS warning tones that accompany the request from the flight deck that we remain seated until the aircraft is fully parked. Is it any surprise that the pax who thought that his number was up following a routine weather diversion also claimed to have received no info for 4 hours. 4 hours! Oh, come on!
As for you "professionals" out there, I wasn't there, so I don't know what the actual met was, but last time I checked Airbus and the CAA hadn't completed their CAT IIIB VOR/DME certification program. BMI use tailored AERAD airfield booklets with all the plates stapled togethed, and with each pilot having his or her own copy. With all airlines doing their damnest to conserve costs, an unscheduled diversion is not lightly undertaken. If a landing could have been safely undertaken then it would have been.
But most of all, shame on you for believing the press and their "reporting" of passengers comments to the detriment of your professional colleagues.
As for you "professionals" out there, I wasn't there, so I don't know what the actual met was, but last time I checked Airbus and the CAA hadn't completed their CAT IIIB VOR/DME certification program. BMI use tailored AERAD airfield booklets with all the plates stapled togethed, and with each pilot having his or her own copy. With all airlines doing their damnest to conserve costs, an unscheduled diversion is not lightly undertaken. If a landing could have been safely undertaken then it would have been.
But most of all, shame on you for believing the press and their "reporting" of passengers comments to the detriment of your professional colleagues.
Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: England
Posts: 2,519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the comments being made this thread should be in Wannabees.
It is one person's comments and those of his wife reporting his alleged comments that are the main thrust of these reports.
As for me, if I have just gone around from a missed approach and I am diverting I concentrate on the safe navigation, safety altitude and cleaning up the aircraft before the PA. That is what is taught in bmi but maybe 'Say Mach Number' has a better idea of jumping on the PA.
In my book the PA comes after the briefing of the Senior Cabin Attendant (and they could make the PA if it is busy up front) - again bmi SOP
The company is holding its own investigation - why not wait until that comes out (I am sure someone will publish it here) before slinging mud in self-engrandisement.
HWB
It is one person's comments and those of his wife reporting his alleged comments that are the main thrust of these reports.
As for me, if I have just gone around from a missed approach and I am diverting I concentrate on the safe navigation, safety altitude and cleaning up the aircraft before the PA. That is what is taught in bmi but maybe 'Say Mach Number' has a better idea of jumping on the PA.
In my book the PA comes after the briefing of the Senior Cabin Attendant (and they could make the PA if it is busy up front) - again bmi SOPThe company is holding its own investigation - why not wait until that comes out (I am sure someone will publish it here) before slinging mud in self-engrandisement.
HWB
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Age: 64
Posts: 3,586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The difficulty we often face on PPRune, and one that is demonstrated here, is a lack of reliable information. The original article quoted on this thread provides a minimum of that commodity and a contrasting maximum of emotive (and emotional) BS. As is human nature, we've taken the minimum available facts, and filtered them through our own experience. That's fine, but possibly not a good basis for an argument?
Some facts seem, to me, to be beyond dispute:
Interestingly (well, to me at least) I'm in ongoing talks with our safety department on this particular issue. Some UK airlines have a standard PA for cabin crew to make immediately after a missed approach: The PA's are neutral and avoid identifying any particular cause, but are designed to reassure the more nervous until such time as the flight crew themselves have time to make their own PA. At the moment, I tend to use my own version of this PA, and then dependant upon circumstances (weather, flight conditions etc.) do a quick smiley walk-thru in the cabin to check on pax and crew. I tend not to try and speak to the flight crew until things have settled down somewhat. In many cases, the Commander is happy to allow me to communicate a follow up PA on his/her behalf, especially in busy ATC environments or at more complicated airfields - while this all seems to work quite well, I do feel that the process should be formalised within the company, and that's what we are working on just now.
Some facts seem, to me, to be beyond dispute:
- During and after a missed approach, flight deck workload may well not permit time for a PA - the primary task will always be the safe operation of the aircraft
- A diversion will increase flight deck workload further
- A decision to divert should always be communicated to customers as soon as the workload permits, either by flight or cabin crew
Interestingly (well, to me at least) I'm in ongoing talks with our safety department on this particular issue. Some UK airlines have a standard PA for cabin crew to make immediately after a missed approach: The PA's are neutral and avoid identifying any particular cause, but are designed to reassure the more nervous until such time as the flight crew themselves have time to make their own PA. At the moment, I tend to use my own version of this PA, and then dependant upon circumstances (weather, flight conditions etc.) do a quick smiley walk-thru in the cabin to check on pax and crew. I tend not to try and speak to the flight crew until things have settled down somewhat. In many cases, the Commander is happy to allow me to communicate a follow up PA on his/her behalf, especially in busy ATC environments or at more complicated airfields - while this all seems to work quite well, I do feel that the process should be formalised within the company, and that's what we are working on just now.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Stansted
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HWB - Sounds like we have same the SOP after a go around and clearly we emphasis the same priorities. Fly the plane, clean up the plane. Relieve the workload and put the autopilot in do the after take off checks and then come together as a crew in our little 'CRM window' and decide a course of action. Make your decision and then advice 3 people: No1, ATC, Pax.
Your right none of us have the facts except the crew and company but its 119nms to SNN from DUB and assuming you like us your SOP is to get alternate wx and your plog will have fuel/ safe heights/nm to divn, and the Dublin wx/notam was no surprise to them, I am just not sure where the drama is for the flight deck crew in diverting to SNN.
Funny enough did a go around the other day due weather and we flew the missed approach got vectored d/wind and did another app and landed. During which time had plenty time to speak to the no1 and then spoke to the pax. Thought about it after landing and it would have felt alien not to have done a pa!
But hey I wasnt in the BMI cockpit and they had their reasons but its a funny thing had i been a pax on that flight I would have probably been sat to someone defending them saying they were probably very busy. But in the cold light of day I would have been thinking a wee word from them would have been nice.
Your right none of us have the facts except the crew and company but its 119nms to SNN from DUB and assuming you like us your SOP is to get alternate wx and your plog will have fuel/ safe heights/nm to divn, and the Dublin wx/notam was no surprise to them, I am just not sure where the drama is for the flight deck crew in diverting to SNN.
Funny enough did a go around the other day due weather and we flew the missed approach got vectored d/wind and did another app and landed. During which time had plenty time to speak to the no1 and then spoke to the pax. Thought about it after landing and it would have felt alien not to have done a pa!
But hey I wasnt in the BMI cockpit and they had their reasons but its a funny thing had i been a pax on that flight I would have probably been sat to someone defending them saying they were probably very busy. But in the cold light of day I would have been thinking a wee word from them would have been nice.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: London
Age: 48
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My wife was actually on this flight. There was no announcement from the flight deck until after landing at SNN, when the captain said that he "couldn't see the runway" and was waiting instructions from company. No-one was allowed to leave the aircraft as BD do not have a contract at SNN, for the same reason there was a problem with the re-fuelling, a fax was required to enable this. The MRs. by the way, DIDN'T fear for her life at any time, it was just poor communication that was frustrating.
For about the second time in what must be getting on for a thousand airline flights, I was on a flight that did a go around at Heathrow last Sunday. Half expecting screams or at least comments from the other slf, I was a bit surprised that none of the people around me even seemed to notice until there was a PA from the captain explaining that the guy in front wasn't going to have vacated the runway in time.
Did make me wonder just how much that cost BA in fuel for a 744 go around.
Did make me wonder just how much that cost BA in fuel for a 744 go around.
I am sure one of the many readers from Donington Hall can comment.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: chavistan
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A comment from the flight deck is at least reassuring for nervous pax - even if it is minimum info. I was on VS011 28/10 (LHR-BOS, A346); folks were getting edgy anyway after sh*tty weather, extended flight time (strong headwind), and then a long holding pattern (25mins or so). And then a go-round.
However captain made PA (within about 2mins of spooling up) explaining calmly that "runway not cleared in time and we are vectoring back into pattern, down shortly". Simple and concise and I think it was the actual calm announcement (rather than the content) that reassured the folks sat next to me. (I was more concerned about fuel!)
GDI
However captain made PA (within about 2mins of spooling up) explaining calmly that "runway not cleared in time and we are vectoring back into pattern, down shortly". Simple and concise and I think it was the actual calm announcement (rather than the content) that reassured the folks sat next to me. (I was more concerned about fuel!)
GDI
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: I'll go and ask the Captain
Posts: 643
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
4 hours, do drivers really carry that much fuel around for a scheduled 55 min flight?
Someone is telling porkies. I dont reckon it would be the chaps up front.
6
Someone is telling porkies. I dont reckon it would be the chaps up front.
6
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: London
Age: 48
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I presume the aircraft diverted to Shannon because that was their alternate on the Flight Plan, I wonder what BMI are doing flightplanning an alternate on a trunk scheduled route where they do not even appear to have a handling agent's agreement in place there.
I am sure one of the many readers from Donington Hall can comment.
I am sure one of the many readers from Donington Hall can comment.
The 4 hours that 6chimes mentions above relates to the total journey time, including being the ground at SNN. Refuelling was required.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: I'll go and ask the Captain
Posts: 643
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In no way does this post point to a single person on this or any other thread!
Once again.....how dare those chaps who defy gravity and hurtle about the skies at several hundred miles an hour often in the dark, regardless of weather and sometimes with no visibility both human or electronic get in the way of an appointment, it makes no sense at all nor is it considerate
Sorry folks but some people need to look at the glass half full.
6
Once again.....how dare those chaps who defy gravity and hurtle about the skies at several hundred miles an hour often in the dark, regardless of weather and sometimes with no visibility both human or electronic get in the way of an appointment, it makes no sense at all nor is it considerate
Sorry folks but some people need to look at the glass half full.
6
