Two Large Bags - No Passenger
Wherefore Art I?
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Globaliser, it does seem that both situations are very close to the line. But neither really across it, I suppose.
Generally true. In specific cases, whenever I travel from the US west coast to the US east coast (where I live), the bag has arrived before me in every instance for the last 1 1/2 years. I head down to bag claim where I find my suitcase sitting just outside the door of the Bag Office.
Second case is quite understandable that I would not have known I was getting bumped (was hoping, as it meant switching from an ERJ145 to a 738), but still goes against the "Bag can not travel without the Pax" mantra. Of course, if I was a suicidal maniac, then it wouldn't matter if I was on the plane or not. (I don't remember if the bomber was on the Pan Am flight over Scotland; was he?)
Spork, I have often worried that my bag would go on walkabout before I got there. As it has happened regularly in the last couple years, I feel pretty lucky. It's a pretty short flight from this airline's hub to my location, so I know it's not going far afield, but I have worried about someone else picking up the bag. So far the only thing to disappear during my travels (knock wood) has been a Gillette Mach 3 Turbo shaver (go figure!).
And I guess I'm lucky that I travel so much out of my particular airport. I've gotten to know most of the desk personnel and TSA agents around these parts, so I usually get the speedy treatment.
In the first case, you will never know whether the bag's on your flight or has been sent on ahead;
Second case is quite understandable that I would not have known I was getting bumped (was hoping, as it meant switching from an ERJ145 to a 738), but still goes against the "Bag can not travel without the Pax" mantra. Of course, if I was a suicidal maniac, then it wouldn't matter if I was on the plane or not. (I don't remember if the bomber was on the Pan Am flight over Scotland; was he?)
Spork, I have often worried that my bag would go on walkabout before I got there. As it has happened regularly in the last couple years, I feel pretty lucky. It's a pretty short flight from this airline's hub to my location, so I know it's not going far afield, but I have worried about someone else picking up the bag. So far the only thing to disappear during my travels (knock wood) has been a Gillette Mach 3 Turbo shaver (go figure!).
And I guess I'm lucky that I travel so much out of my particular airport. I've gotten to know most of the desk personnel and TSA agents around these parts, so I usually get the speedy treatment.
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Their address is very easy to find (and is on their website if you look)
Beulah Court
Albert Road
Horley
Surrey
RH6 7HP
United Kingdom
One of the advantages of the small claims system is the claimant can do all the work himself.
the bag has arrived before me in every instance for the last 1 1/2 years
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Papertiger
Wrong, wrong, wrong!! I can't make this any clearer : Under NO circumstances should a passengers bag remain on a departing aircraft if the passenger is not on board. It's not a judgement call, it's a legal obligation on the part of the handling agent/airline. Remember Lockerbie? That's why the system is in place. There is no ambiguity. If a pax is not on the aircraft, then their bag MUST be removed. To not do so is illegal, unsafe and downright stupid.
your scenario above, the bags should be pulled. In others, there would be no need to
Wherefore Art I?
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That is quite remarkable. So in 'every instance' you must have checked in well prior to the flight-before-yours for them to have got your bags on the earlier flight? Or you stopped somewhere, and you didn't get the next flight out, because that's the only way it can happen as you claim. Or you might take a long time to get from the gate to the carousel?
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Lady Lexxington
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US carriers regualarly send bags ahead of pax, it's happened to me a good few times both internal and international, US to UK.
I have NEVER seen this happen in the UK. I have seen it nearly happen and delayed flights ensue. If it did happen in the UK the airline has actually commited an offence.
I have NEVER seen this happen in the UK. I have seen it nearly happen and delayed flights ensue. If it did happen in the UK the airline has actually commited an offence.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
That's the philosophy - it sounds like some countries have stricter rules, with which I'm very comfortable.
Agreed about the suicide bomber, but there have to be different defences against one of them.
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Papertiger - Sorry to harp on at you, but I don't get the point of your last post.
Do you mean that being stupid by not taking the bags off fits in with other seemingly thoughtless security descisions, or that the requirement to remove bags if the passenger is not flying is a thoughtless security decision?
Do you mean that being stupid by not taking the bags off fits in with other seemingly thoughtless security descisions, or that the requirement to remove bags if the passenger is not flying is a thoughtless security decision?
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Papertiger - Sorry to harp on at you, but I don't get the point of your last post.
Do you mean that being stupid by not taking the bags off fits in with other seemingly thoughtless security decisions, or that the requirement to remove bags if the passenger is not flying is a thoughtless security decision?
Do you mean that being stupid by not taking the bags off fits in with other seemingly thoughtless security decisions, or that the requirement to remove bags if the passenger is not flying is a thoughtless security decision?
Yes, I remember Lockerbie; and Anne-Marie Murphy too. Both irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
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Their address is very easy to find (and is on their website if you look) I did look (already said that) and they have UK addresses relating to various services, but NOT Customer Service. I am currently emailing their so called Customer Service addy daily and getting absolutely no response other than pointless “ticket numbers”. So much for customers eh Continental?
Feel free to see if you can attract their attention. If you know what the thread is about slim_slag, then you’d know what I’m talking about. It clearly does not mean it is obligatory for you to do anything.
One of the advantages of the small claims system is the claimant can do all the work himself. Yes, I have used the CC system before, and know all the ins and outs of making a claim. It has not reached that stage yet. In the past I have found CC judges expect you to have made an effort to sort the problem out and document how poor the response (if any) has been.
However, feel free to persist in challenging posters here for whatever motive it is you have.
Concerning bags going on ahead regularly, I wouldn’t fly with an airline that leaves my bag around initially on a carousel, and later outside a door, for all and sundry to have access to it.
Yes, I remember Lockerbie… …irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Lockerbie was a bag or bags travelling without pax, so is completely relevant. No knowledge of the other case.
I would have thought that one clear reason to pull a no show pax’ bags is security, and agree wholeheartedly with Strepsils on that. I also agree it is NOT a judgement call. Another pretty obvious reason is that when you let down an inexperienced international passenger and leave them stranded in a deserted airport for 22 hours, is that they might a) Want something out of their bags, like a wash kit, and b) Might end up changing their plans due to the shabby and inept service received.
Maybe the challenging bulls here will think differently when we have another Lockerbie.
Feel free to see if you can attract their attention. If you know what the thread is about slim_slag, then you’d know what I’m talking about. It clearly does not mean it is obligatory for you to do anything.
One of the advantages of the small claims system is the claimant can do all the work himself. Yes, I have used the CC system before, and know all the ins and outs of making a claim. It has not reached that stage yet. In the past I have found CC judges expect you to have made an effort to sort the problem out and document how poor the response (if any) has been.
However, feel free to persist in challenging posters here for whatever motive it is you have.
Concerning bags going on ahead regularly, I wouldn’t fly with an airline that leaves my bag around initially on a carousel, and later outside a door, for all and sundry to have access to it.
Yes, I remember Lockerbie… …irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Lockerbie was a bag or bags travelling without pax, so is completely relevant. No knowledge of the other case.
I would have thought that one clear reason to pull a no show pax’ bags is security, and agree wholeheartedly with Strepsils on that. I also agree it is NOT a judgement call. Another pretty obvious reason is that when you let down an inexperienced international passenger and leave them stranded in a deserted airport for 22 hours, is that they might a) Want something out of their bags, like a wash kit, and b) Might end up changing their plans due to the shabby and inept service received.
Maybe the challenging bulls here will think differently when we have another Lockerbie.
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Some 30 years ago, long before Lockerbie, I was departing on a BCAL (remember them?) flight to Italy when we were delayed due to a pax having a "panic attack" and refusing to board. The bags were all offloaded and put on the ground beside the aircraft so that pax could ident their own and ensure that nothing was flown "without pax".
Another occasion, just after Lockerbie, I was with my kids on a Pan-Am (is it me? - another airline that is no more!) returning from Athens and our bags got left behind during a transit at Frankfurt (due to confusion that was partly my own fault). Bags arrived at various times over the next couple of days. I was told by PanAm that they put these "rush" bags through a depressurisation and bags get a random number of cycles of time and depressurisations.
I have been on a flight (BIA - also "aviation history"!!) from LGW to one of the Channel Isles when the "early" flight was delayed until almost the departure time of the later flight, and my bag was on the following aircraft, and a Gulf Air (still around!!!) when a flight was cancelled, pax split between two other routes, and the bags took a different route to me.
In the first 2 cases, the failure of pax to fly was, or could have been, premeditated - hence the offload. In the BIA and GF cases, there was no way that I could have known this would happen. IMHO, that is how it should be. Spork could have intentionally missed his connection,and (again IMHO) I think CO were irresponsible if they allowed his bags to travel without him.
(and I think the 40 quid "fine" for not collecting them from the carousel is well OTT
)
Good luck with the claim mate!
Another occasion, just after Lockerbie, I was with my kids on a Pan-Am (is it me? - another airline that is no more!) returning from Athens and our bags got left behind during a transit at Frankfurt (due to confusion that was partly my own fault). Bags arrived at various times over the next couple of days. I was told by PanAm that they put these "rush" bags through a depressurisation and bags get a random number of cycles of time and depressurisations.
I have been on a flight (BIA - also "aviation history"!!) from LGW to one of the Channel Isles when the "early" flight was delayed until almost the departure time of the later flight, and my bag was on the following aircraft, and a Gulf Air (still around!!!) when a flight was cancelled, pax split between two other routes, and the bags took a different route to me.
In the first 2 cases, the failure of pax to fly was, or could have been, premeditated - hence the offload. In the BIA and GF cases, there was no way that I could have known this would happen. IMHO, that is how it should be. Spork could have intentionally missed his connection,and (again IMHO) I think CO were irresponsible if they allowed his bags to travel without him.
(and I think the 40 quid "fine" for not collecting them from the carousel is well OTT
)Good luck with the claim mate!
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Thanks for an interesting post ExSimGuy.
"Spork could have intentionally missed his connection" Twas not me, was my daughter, a very inexperienced flyer. On the way IN via Newark, both daughters had to go to the carousel to claim their bags and enter the country, so on the way back they both thought that the same procedure applied in reverse. (on entering they both then took a connecting flight elsewhere)
No.1 daughter got to Newark an hour or so earlier from a different flight. Continental didn’t mention the automatic bag transfer to her either, so she also went in search of her bag. On enquiring where her bag was after waiting a long time, they told her. So very helpful. Exactly the same happened to No.2 daughter, except that with her incoming Continental flight running late, she then missed the UK flight because of searching the carousel. They knew she definitely wasn’t on the plane as an attendant asked No.1 daughter. No.2 daughter’s bags were obviously placed on the plane very late, therefore an offload would have been extremely easy. Being stuck at Newark for 22hrs she would have liked her bags. She was told that “everything was locked away now so she couldn't have them”. No offer of help with safe accommodation or use of phone or subsistence was made. Nice treatment of a young looking 19-year old at 11pm, with nothing but a paperback in her hand!
"Spork could have intentionally missed his connection" Twas not me, was my daughter, a very inexperienced flyer. On the way IN via Newark, both daughters had to go to the carousel to claim their bags and enter the country, so on the way back they both thought that the same procedure applied in reverse. (on entering they both then took a connecting flight elsewhere)
No.1 daughter got to Newark an hour or so earlier from a different flight. Continental didn’t mention the automatic bag transfer to her either, so she also went in search of her bag. On enquiring where her bag was after waiting a long time, they told her. So very helpful. Exactly the same happened to No.2 daughter, except that with her incoming Continental flight running late, she then missed the UK flight because of searching the carousel. They knew she definitely wasn’t on the plane as an attendant asked No.1 daughter. No.2 daughter’s bags were obviously placed on the plane very late, therefore an offload would have been extremely easy. Being stuck at Newark for 22hrs she would have liked her bags. She was told that “everything was locked away now so she couldn't have them”. No offer of help with safe accommodation or use of phone or subsistence was made. Nice treatment of a young looking 19-year old at 11pm, with nothing but a paperback in her hand!
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Originally Posted by spork
They knew she definitely wasn’t on the plane as an attendant asked No.1 daughter. No.2 daughter’s bags were obviously placed on the plane very late, therefore an offload would have been extremely easy. Being stuck at Newark for 22hrs she would have liked her bags.
Originally Posted by ExSimGuy
I think CO were irresponsible if they allowed her(sic) bags to travel without her(sic).
CO knew who Spork's daughter was, where she was and why she had missed the connection. Don't know who made the call not to pull her bag, CSR or the Capt., but since the plane is NOT at the bottom of the Atlantic it appears to have been a good call.
If nobody actually made any kind of call and no intervention of any kind happened, then I would agree CO was derelict. I'm guessing they weighed the situation and determined a complete absence of threat.
Tough on daughter no. 2, but hey **** happens.
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Yes, I remember Lockerbie; and Anne-Marie Murphy too. Both irrelevant to the discussion at hand
Lockerbie is irrelevant to a discussion about bags travelling unnacompanied? What planet are you on? Do you know how Lockerbie occurred? That is the very reason why we now have the AAA system here in the UK.
Please tell me you don't actually work in Aviation? If so, will you stand up and take the rap when your "judgement" goes wrong and an aircraft is destroyed in-flight? I sincerely hope you're never involved in the dispatch of one of my flights if this is honestly your view on baggage reconcilliation.
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Hear hear Strepsils!
Paper Tiger, it’s difficult to interpret what Ah and Hmmm means.
According to news items like Arroyo being sacked, Newark has a poor record on security. (see above) So maybe bags only just loaded could be pulled just in case?
“CO knew who Spork's daughter was, where she was and why she had missed the connection.” Pity then that 1) They failed to act in the first place by letting pax know at check-in how their bags will be processed, and 2) Put something in their check-in procedures to avoid this happening for everybody in the future. Judging by bealine’s earlier post, they must know of this weakness in the system, so why not close the loophole and have happy passengers? I have made that point to them in my complaint letter, sent twice, which they are completely ignoring.
Other daughter assumed the same (to go to carousel) but was not on a delayed flight, thus the wasted time had no effect. Next time I suppose an assumption like that will mean THEY travel and not their bags. All that CO check-in staff (in two separate airports of course) had to do was say to the paying customer “Your bags will automatically go to the onward flight at Newark”. Is that so damned hard?
It might not be their fault they were late running, but it was their fault they could not be bothered to tell a few pax something that would mean they would actually catch their connecting flight. Leaving a 19-year old alone with no assistance of any sort offered, and none of her stuff to hand just adds insult to injury and is shabby treatment.
“but since the plane is NOT at the bottom of the Atlantic it appears to have been a good call.” So “suck it and see” is a good security procedure then?
Paper Tiger, it’s difficult to interpret what Ah and Hmmm means.
According to news items like Arroyo being sacked, Newark has a poor record on security. (see above) So maybe bags only just loaded could be pulled just in case?
“CO knew who Spork's daughter was, where she was and why she had missed the connection.” Pity then that 1) They failed to act in the first place by letting pax know at check-in how their bags will be processed, and 2) Put something in their check-in procedures to avoid this happening for everybody in the future. Judging by bealine’s earlier post, they must know of this weakness in the system, so why not close the loophole and have happy passengers? I have made that point to them in my complaint letter, sent twice, which they are completely ignoring.
Other daughter assumed the same (to go to carousel) but was not on a delayed flight, thus the wasted time had no effect. Next time I suppose an assumption like that will mean THEY travel and not their bags. All that CO check-in staff (in two separate airports of course) had to do was say to the paying customer “Your bags will automatically go to the onward flight at Newark”. Is that so damned hard?
It might not be their fault they were late running, but it was their fault they could not be bothered to tell a few pax something that would mean they would actually catch their connecting flight. Leaving a 19-year old alone with no assistance of any sort offered, and none of her stuff to hand just adds insult to injury and is shabby treatment.
“but since the plane is NOT at the bottom of the Atlantic it appears to have been a good call.” So “suck it and see” is a good security procedure then?
