He's matey, I'm old mate. :ok:​​​​​​​

Aviation Degree (e.g., UNSW) vs. Airline Cadetships
 

Hi everyone,

I'm exploring potential career paths in aviation for when I finish HS. I'm interested in an Aviation Degree (for example, at UNSW) and applying for an airline cadetship. Both options seem to have their unique benefits and drawbacks, and I have some queries.

I noticed that the ATAR entry mark for the UNSW aviation degree is 70, which doesn't seem too competitive when compared to the selection process for airline cadetships. For those of you with experience in the industry or familiarity with these paths, could you please share your insights on the advantages and disadvantages of an aviation degree compared to a cadetship, considering factors like competitiveness, career progression, and industry opportunities?

Why is the Aviation Degree ATAR for UNSW 70 when cadetships are extremely competitive? Most cadetships in Australia don't guarantee employment, for example, students studying aviation at UNSW can apply to the same future pilot program that Qantas cadets apply for.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
clamspread

The only upside in any degree is for the education institutions balance sheet. I worked in recruitment in a previous employer (airline), we did not take a degree into any decision making, nobody cares, I never had a pilot in a interview mention it either, as they know, its pointless and management don't care. The ATAR mark is low because they are after numbers, ie profit. In fact, many education providers are currently in balance sheet repair mode after the previous few years, expect the entry barrier to possible even reduce further.

A Cadetship will be always be competitive. You are essentially bypassing the GA route which is very unattractive (too hard) for many. Financial assistance is also offered.

If you get into a cadetship, then great, if not, it's not the end. Work full time until mid 20s, self fund a CPL, get some 210 time, move to Darwin and they will hire you soon after.

Thanks for the response,How competitive are cadetships? I've heard that cadet programs may be hesitant to accept recent high school graduates due to their limited real-world experience.

What are the potential drawbacks of obtaining an aviation degree? How does career development differ when comparing earning a Commercial Pilot License independently versus through an aviation degree program? While GA isn't an area of interest, I'm open to necessary options to progress in the aviation sector.

The draw back at uni is time wasted on unnecessary subjects that make the course take the required length of time. For example if you go through a small school full time you can easily finish your CPL within 12 months and be out trying to find work where the uni students will still have two or three years still studying. If you can find a job you could be 1000+ hours ahead of the others. That’s IF you can find a job! As many are finding it’s not quite that easy.

I don’t have any figures on how competitive cadet shops are but anecdotally I’ve heard a minimum of 4-5 applicants for every slot (when they are doing them).

If COVID taught pilots anything its that the Aviation Degree is worthless when the industry locks down! Self fund the CPL (if you miss cadet) and part time look to do a trade (electrical, plumbing, whatever, take your pick). That time spent telling some uni course admin person in 5000 words or less how "avaition fits in a modern society" or some nonsense will be better spent getting a trade that will pay your bills and fund your flying and life.

Seems like Unis are just money-making schemes; I'll steer clear. How hard is it to find a GA job? I was under the impression that there was a certain level of demand in this sector.

Yep, I agree. I'd like to get a degree while also getting my CPL, but I probably wouldn't have the monetary means to do so. So instead of getting a trade, I might consider the police force. Probationary Constable salary is great.

I've seen most cadetships are ab initio; I've got some flight hours. Would that put me at a disadvantage?

What ever flying school you think you might consider doing your flying training you must do some thorough background checking. What is the experience of the instructors? does the training school have a demonstrated record (names not just numbers) of graduates employed, and where were they employed? how long do the instructors get to spend with you for pre- and post flight brief for every hours flights?; what is the cost breakdown and how much do you pay up front (never pay a whole course up front, but progress payments may be reasonable, check the fine print); how is the theory delivered and at what cost?. Check to see what training fees include (landing fees, instruction, fuel, theory, repeat flights...) and what is not included.

Whether you will want to use a government loan (HECS Help or FEE-Help; make sure you understand the difference) will depend on whether you have cash up front (a rich uncle scrooge, family savings or personal savings) or need a loan. The government loans to universities are always loaded with "on-costs" which are added to the actual costs of training, however even training organisations without government loan affiliations will often still charge comparable amounts. The practice of training on weekends and earning through the week is inefficient and not conducive to building flying capability quickly or effectively. So if young and penniless the loans are a way forward. (It takes several years to get a trade qualification, say as a sparky, and then several more years to save cash, so this is a very long pathway).

Not all universities are the same in terms of entry criteria, and postgraduate employability. Check on both, rumours abound; an earlier post suggests UNSW ATAR is 70; not long ago I believe it was ~80. A University degree does indicate some measure of ability to absorb and understand technical information and also some maturity of living and working with others, so can add to employability for some types of flying positions where this is useful. Visit the school on open days and also get a personal interview. Try to get to talk with current students in private to get their real opinions.

It is your pathway to choose, and every path is expensive in cost, and of course takes time ( and precludes or postpones another choice). Good luck
Seabreeze

Unless you have someone with you that has an aviation background, none of the above will mean anything to a newbie. Therein lies the problem.

Thanks for the response,
I'll be happy with any pathway that leads me into aviation, but as it stands, I'm most interested in the cadetship and Uni pathways. I'll be taking out a loan either way. I've conducted some research on post-graduate pathways via LinkedIn, and I've discovered that Cadetships and University programs yield fairly comparable outcomes. A notable number of Rex Saab FOs are graduates of AAPA, while many QLink Q300/400 FOs have successfully transitioned through the Future Pilot Program with backgrounds from both FTA and Uni.

Deeper research required, AAPA is owned by REX, that's why there are loads of AAPA graduates in REX.

​​​​​​​Many? Don't think so, deeper research required. The numbers are very low.

Just be careful with LinkedIn. Those degrees are generally connected to a Cadetship or something, especially Rex. Anyone that has AAPA connected to a profile is a Rex cadet. Common across the Rex FO ranks as that is a lever Rex uses to man its fleet.

Not sure degrees are that widespread outside of the Cadet schemes. Aside the cadets I sit next to, the rest are GA. Nobody that I am aware of is ex degree. See my point earlier, in recruitment, it wasn’t something we factored in. It was on some resumes, when we conducted the interview, none of them mentioned it, as they know, nobody cares.

It’s more a demand for a certain type of pilot the employer is looking for. Let’s take Darwin for
example. To be successful, you need to actually live there, have what they actually want, which generally involves a dozen or so hours in a 206/210, a retractable gear rating, and the right attitude. Last one is probably the most important. Forget IFR/Twin ratings at 200 hours, not important.

Age can play a part. The pool these days is largely early to late twenties, generally somewhere in first to middle range. I was speaking to a GA owner last year, he was after two people, had 50 resumes, they all sat in 20-25 years old range, then he had one random bloke mid 30s, local, ex corporate career, single with no ties. Guess who got the job. Your competition might be someone older who comes from other life. That is why I advise perhaps don’t rush, live life, travel the world, buy a house. Revisit late 20s, you will likely slot into a job easier, your confidence level is chalk and cheese from 20 to 30.

I don't think I could wait that long since I'm highly motivated. If I have to follow the GA path, I'd prefer to complete it as soon as possible. Wouldn't starting later in life impact seniority?

Could initiating a career in Europe potentially present more advantageous or simplified opportunities? I'm eligible to get a European passport.

What is the typical trajectory for cadets who have completed cadetships that don't offer guaranteed employment? Given the high demand for pilots and re-emerging market, I assumed that good performance during the cadetship would enable advancement to airlines, perhaps following a brief stint as an instructor.

I am fairly sure some have have been offered line pilot opportunities in the Torres Strait, Cairns region. I can’t recall the operator but I think it was those cadets who trained from Brisbane.

I think Sharp Airlines offered a cadet scheme in the past, they might still do it, one would imagine it would be less competitive vs airlines.

Not sure what you mean by good performance within a cadetship.

.Yep, it's still around. It's a pretty expensive program, but you get a 1-year contract as an FO with them, where you rack up a minimum of 650 hours during your tenure. I believe it's the only cadetship providing employment, aside from Rex. Cobham might; I'm not sure.

I guess I'm referring to demonstrating a positive mindset and enthusiasm for learning, coupled with a mature demeanour during the cadetship. Instructors and administrators would be looking for that, right?

Having a look, you stump up 130k, don’t get paid for the 15 months, then get a 12 month contract on 40k, then get dumped on the kerb unemployed.

I mean, seriously, what a disgrace. I’d love to follow the money trail on that one.

It would be interesting to see how many ex Sharp cadets get a gig anywhere after their 12 month contract? I know they've employed into the left seat after the 12 months, but elsewhere would be the key to deciding on doing it. I have seen gigs advertised that requires multi-crew experience, this would tick that box.

The qantas college thing or whatever it's called looks awful to me, there appears to be a lot of qantas prancing around at Wellcamp and lots of 'mentor' pilots but very little qantas employment.

Shouldn't be a problem mate. Have spoken to a Rex pilot who switched across from flight training school in Melbourne to AAPA/Wagga with an existing RPL or PPL (forgot which one). Rex selection program looks into previous flying and will test you on aviation knowledge so this is all good for your application. Just make sure not to go beyond PPL level if you're considering the cadetship route but a RPL should be fine. I had a PPL when I applied to Rex and got invited to the wombat test pretty soon. Good luck!

Personally I think the Rex Cadetship is still a pretty good opportunity to get involved in, particularly with their current growth in the market.

I would love to apply and be part of it but 40 weeks of being unpaid, living in Wagga Wagga and having my wife and kids in Melbourne is a bit of a challenge.

All of these cadetships are unfortunately only designed for the young school leaver who is living at home. They are also probably the ones to be selected as a priority anyway as I believe these positions are very competitive.

Has anyone in my situation ever completed a cadetship and have any advice?

I'm now as "GA Ready" as they come having just completed the GA Ready course in Darwin. It's been almost a month back in Darwin and feel like I got to play the waiting game all over again, through the dry, until we hit the wet again and start the door knocking game from scratch. Is this really how it is? There is another GA ready down south but I figured I don't want to spend another $4,000 when this GA ready course here cost almost $5,000. Thanks to everyone for your contributions. It's interesting reading.

Reacrational Pilot License Struggles
 

Hi All,
I am a Year 12 student, and my start to aviation has been a bit of a rollercoaster ride, with the rollercoaster mostly being on the bottom. I started flying when i was 15, finishing basic manoeuvring skills and getting closer to circuit training then... COVID-19. I was locked out of flight school on and off for a year and a half where i would find myself repeating some classes due to the time gap. Then when i was in year 11 i did my first solo and my training area solo's which i found very easy due to me finally getting FSX on my computer.

Eventually when year 12 came it was time to do the RPL exam. For the first portion of the year i had time to study so i booked in my RPL exam ready to go. I sat down and got through half of the questions when the wifi crashed and the CASA exam website crashed. I waited hours for the test to come back alive. A few hours later it came and on... then crashed again. Eventually i failed the exam. 63%

The next time came around, year 12 had started and it hit me like a bus. Stupidly doing so, i didn't study what so ever and reattempted the RPL exam. I did some practice exams in flight school which resulted in me getting alright results. So time came, and i failed the exam. NO SURPRISE. 61%

My instructor sat me down and told me options, "if you failed your 3rd attempt you will have wait three months. Since the PPL exam will be unlocked, we could study for that instead but we would need to teach you NAV". So here i am writing this, because i want some advice. I have been studying for 2 months on and off, trying to aim a average of 90%> on practice exam but i am achieving around 85% on the practices. I do feel terrified to enter the exam room and fail again. This has been very stressful for me, and i really do want to be a pilot. What should i do and is there any study techniques i should me mindful about. How do i balance this and year 12.

Thank You
kyuubi

Just ask yourself honestly how many hours per day you spend studying (reading) vs how many hours you spend on gaming, social media, discord, tiktok, youtube, other activities....

Studying means mind focused on topics.. Doing practice exams on its own isn't helping because you are memorising answers without deep understanding. Read Bob Tait (or ATC) books twice, you will notice on the 2nd pass things that you've missed after 1st pass.. THEN work on PPE.

There are lots of temptations and distractions these days, but YOU have to be in-charge of your life, the same way YOU will be in-charge of the aeroplane once passing the ticket.

Good luck

What are the odds?
 

Current Yr12 Student, predicted ATAR is >80, I've got some flight experience and relevant work experience in the aviation sector. Also attended AAFC for a year.

Considering my circumstance, what are the odds if me being a competitive applicant for a cadetship in the eyes of the big cheeses at Rex AAPA and and Qantas Group Pilot Academy?

Work experience question
 

I scored work experience with Qantas at Sydney Airport. stoked..

What could I expect to be doing? I haven't been given much information apart from time and dates, I know I'll be with the baggage handling and ground crew employees. Is there anything I should know that the managers won't tell me before I start?

clamspread

Are you sure it’s not Swissport?

The work has been organised by a Qantas higherup that I know and they haven't mentioned Swissport.

God help me if it is, I've heard bad things about Swissport.

Either way, it'll be an eye-opening experience that's also good for my resume down the track

Courses at the Quantas Group Flying Academy are not cadetships. Ask them what their percentage is of people who start the course to people who get a job with Qantas at the end of it. I know the answer but I'd be very interested to hear what they say.

Instructor Ratings - Melbourne, Victoria
 

Hi All,

Looking for some recommendations for instructor ratings in Victoria, Can anyone recommend any good flight schools? Has anyone completed one at InterAir at Essendon or LTF at Moorabbin?

Thank you for your help.

Interair, better choice

You're pretty safe with any of the major schools that aren't starving, Tyabb is an unreal operation.

Interair is a solid operator and have been around a long time. Thoroughly recommend them.

There is a lot of movement at the moment, considering how tight things are going to get soon for pilots, I would consider not spending the money for an instructor rating and get yourself ready to slot into a proper commercial transport/charter role.

Only do the rating with a school that will agree to employ you after completion. If they won't offer some surety of it you could be looking for work for a while after the course. As for getting charter work in states like Victoria its almost non existent for low time pilots, and by the time you have the hours you will be Airline fodder.

Melb training questions... so many....
 

Hiya, new here. Thinking of starting my flight training (RPL to start with) (after 20 years of thinking about it). Not interested in a career in GA, but possibly building a Vans plane or similar in the future... who knows....

Options seem to be Moorabbin, Tyabb and Lilydale for me, Moorabbin being the closest. Have a few questions for the group.

# You say Tyabb is unreal, meaning good? If so why? Is it 'better' training, or cheaper or both, better setup?
# Would like to take TIF flights at all these airports to see what suits me best, do the operators get antsy if you do this? I did have a logbook (lost long ago with 1 hour logged) but would like to take one along to each flight to get time logged.
# Is there an online course where I can do all the theory AND EXAMS components required for RPL (and PPL) without doing the flight training first? Is this even possible without starting an actual flight training course?
# Does in-person training become cheaper if you do the theory and exams yourself? Or is DIYing the theory courses expected anyway?
# Lastly, highly subjective, but anyone have recommendations for flight schools in either of these locations???

Thanks in advance!

Hey Mate, will do my best to answer these, it’s just my opinion, but have a good read of this thread, most information still seems real valid.

Yeah can break down a few, Tyabb, was and in my opinion still has the best culture of any aero club or airfield I’ve ever been to, a real credit to the Melbourne area. It’s surprisingly cheap as well!

Nah operators I’d say love doing TIFs, no shame in a try before you buy, just remember that it’s only a 30min insight into the actual flying side, there will be good days and bad days, just roll with the punches, you’ll get there.

Yep 100% dependant on what you want to do, you can have a crack at RPL/PPL before you’re licensed. While it can be done, I’d strongly advise doing some flying before you attempt them, you’ll wrap your head around the subjects much easier. Check out bob tait for RPL/PPL. Will lessen the cost if you self study but doesn’t hurt to ask for help.

Tyabb and Lilydale are awesome schools, Moorabbin also has its fair share, just be cautious if sausage factories. I’d honestly say if you’re going to build an RV, either or will be a wealth of knowledge.

Sorry for the war and peace, but hope this helps.

Cheers,
M1M

Having followed a similar path to the one you're considering, to add to M1M's reply above, a few questions:

LSA or GA?? If you're thinking of building an RV (RAAus probably) at some point, then I'd recommend an RAAus RPC first up (the cheapest way to go) and convert that into an RPL on completion. Even if Moorabbin is closest, then although it's a bit further for you to drive, for a great school with friendly staff, Lilydale (LFS) may still be the place for you to start, moving your training to Moorabbin a bit later.

At LFS, you'd start your RPC in either Foxbats or Jabirus (or the Alpha Electro, if electric flight appeals to you!) and move up to their Piper Warriors, Archers, etc. for RPL then PPL as you get hooked. Lilydale also just happens to be on the corner of the main VFR route to everywhere, making navs a bit cheaper plus there are a few SAA builders out there you'd get to know. Nice as they are, if this LSA-to-GA is appealing to you, neither Tyabb nor Moorabbin can offer as many opportunities nor diversity of aircraft as Lilydale does and many pilots (myself included) choose to fly at both Lilydale and Moorabbin for different parts of their training.

High wing or low?? Tyabb fly Cessnas mostly, which leaves Moorabbin. At Moorabbin you have a choice depending on the school you pick. Ideally you want somewhere with an excellent reputation, good instructors and well-maintained aircraft. Staying out of the way of career students rules out CAE-Oxford and LTF... leaving you with either Tristar (Cessnas) or RVAC (Pipers) as the only other places that tick all the boxes.

Course-work? RAAus https://www.raa.asn.au/fly-with-us/ have their own path but Bob Tait's books are the place to start for either. Read up as much as you can and don't be afraid to ask questions. Bob Tait also runs on-line theory courses which are worth doing: https://www.bobtait.com.au/

My 5 cents worth:
1. Organise a TIF in an RAAus registered aircraft at Lilydale and one in a GA aircraft at either Tristar or RVAC.
2. Talk to the instructors about costs and weigh it up.

It will definitely be more expensive to get to RPL at either Moorabbin or Tyabb than Lilydale, but maybe the drive is worth it to you?
https://www.yarravalleyaviation.com.au/
http://www.tristaraviation.com.au/
https://www.rvac.com.au/home

Warning: Flying is addictive. Have fun! :)

As a Tyabb club member, there couple of clarifications with regards to the aerodrome/school/club.

There are Cherokee and Sierra, both low wing aircrafts available for training in Tyabb.

There is a Foxbat in Tyabb available for RAAus training, although if you are thinking about "saving $" through RAAus path, in reality that rarely happens.

Location of school and distance for Nav flights is irrelevant. The flying hours count. Actually, only location and travel time from your home to the aerodrome counts.

For you as a builder, you'd probably want to join SAAA. There is a "Tyabb chapter", but I can't find Lilydale chapter which doesn't mean you won't get support from local members in Lilydale area.

​​​​​​...and finally you won't find awesome views of both Port Phillip and Westernport bays after taking off from Tyabb.. priceless :)

and yeah, Tyabb has its own flaws, but again nobody's perfect..

Welcome, wherever you decide to learn!

I suggest you do some more research and talking to people first.
Both RVAC and LTF have Slings. RVAC also has Cessna 152s.
Consider Coldstream.

Visit a shortlist of schools and talk to the instructors. Choice of instructor is very important.

Do a TIF or two after that.