Hi Chopz,

TVSA at Bacchus Marsh also offer a VET level diploma course.
I have recently started private training with them and have enjoyed the experience thus far, not having experienced any issues (other than occasional cancellation due to weather or illness with me wanting to keep the same instructor).
The team have been friendly and supportive.
My history was that I originally took lessons when I was 16 and got to my first solo, but that was back in 1996 (a lifetime ago, and I've done nothing but Microsoft flying since).
As I have been progressing, the instructors have monitored my ability and do not seem interested in required me to spend extra hours once having demonstrated competence to a required lesson criteria.

Compared to my previous experience which was at Archerfield with RQAC (now defunct I believe), one thing I have noticed is the lack of time spent traversing from startup to the training area, as the runway is right there and the airfield is in the training area.
Less time idling around means more time practicing lesson skills.
I think that's an advantage of undertaking it at a school that is not based in a controlled airspace.
Of course, controlled airspace has other advantages, but there is plenty of time for that.

Best of luck with your endeavours.

That's good to know. YBSS, with its long, paved, cross runways, was my favorite go-to place for landing practice during RPL and PPL training not so long ago ("fly down this road and turn base at the roundabout!") and it was sad when the previous school closed down. From the web site, it seems TVSA have spent quite a load of money on the place and hopefully many of the friendly and helpful people I spoke to when getting PPR remain with the new crowd. I must go back and visit. :)

Flight training to airlines
 

Hi, I'm interested in being an airline pilot. I just want everyone's opinion on if I should do the Bachelor of aviation with CQU online using HECS or should I pay as I go with a local flight school?

In my opinion (and it’s only my opinion). Go self funded if you can afford it. If you have funds already you’ll be finished long before those going through uni. You will also pay a lot less in total. You will, in my experience, get better one on one training with a smaller school that can tailor its course to suit your individual needs better.

I don't have the funds available, I would be needing to work full time and fly whenever I can. So its hard to say how long it would take self funded, though thinking about 1-2 times per week. Thats why I was thinking bachelor so I can get in and do it covered by HECS/FEE-HELP and it could possibly be done faster. The only thing with HECS is the amount it will end up being and then with it being indexed annually adding to that amount.

PLus it is indexed with CPI, not interest rates then there's tens of thousands in "admin fees" added on, which would be better used getting command time!

What's the rush? You need to have an edge over all the thousands that will be graduating from the sausage factories. Command time is what gives you the edge. Be the tortoise, not the hare.

If you do the diploma/advanced diploma set at a school that can do FEE HELP loans you'll be finished and job ready with very little out of pocket cost in under two years. It would be almost impossible to complete CPL/MECIR while working to pay for training in double that time.

Yes it's initially more expensive on paper but at the back end of your career every additional year you work could be worth half a million bucks.

What job are you ready for with 70 hours in command?.
Big difference between a list of acronyms in your licence and being job ready. Command time is what makes you job ready and promotable.
There is an assumption that you will walk straight into a lucrative job straight from flying school. Good luck with that.

The exact same job you're ready for if you spent five years of weekends getting the exact same qualifications, but three years sooner.

Not sure if you are giving or receiving, it's a slik sales pitch.

Someone who's done the course part time will have at least 100 hours in command, no expensive ratings that they can't use and will have to spend a lot keeping current and will have spent about half as much to be more job ready. .

I'm speaking as someone who has been employing pilots for 30 years. And as one of the taxpayers who is subsidising this rort.
Someone who has seen the disappointment on the faces of people whose HECS debt is maxed out and, if they did actually finish can't find work because there are thousands of others just like them, who fell for the same trick.. And as their HECS is maxed out they can't do anything else at uni to get a useful qualification!

I'm not sure if you're aware, but you don't need to complete a full CPL/MECIR set of qualifications via student loans. You could, if you so wished, complete a bare CPL in under a year via an AVI50219 diploma course. No expensive ratings necessary and plenty of room in the loan cap to complete another course if needed. Then with the time you've saved you could rent a 152 on weekends to get those 30 extra hours.

I've seen enough in my time to form my own opinions on the positive and negative aspects of various training options. Personally I'm happy to have my tax dollars help people access flight training. Recent history is littered with far more egregious government spending.

For that amount of money, that is normally only accessible to people in the very top percentiles in ATAR, there should be a very high bar to entry.
The only other courses that can borrow that much money are medicine, dentistry and vet.

The AVI50219 diploma runs about $82k. The loan limit for non-aviation courses is about $109k at the moment. There's plenty of non-aviation degrees that could be completed within the cap with CSP unit fees around $1k/semester.

Granted, most student pilots won't do this and would jump straight into the $40k advanced diploma for the MECIR, or just be enrolled in a three year degree program.

For what it's worth, I think the degree programs are not worth it, but the diploma/advanced diploma have their place. I know many pilots who simply wouldn't have had the opportunity to pursue a flying career if they couldn't access a student loan.

Australian Airline Cadetships
 

I am currently 15 years old and want to be a pilot. I am wondering how competitive the Airline Cadetships will be in a few years down under. While it's still a few years until I'm old enough to apply, I'm wondering if the JetStar cadetship is good option as assuming I'm lucky enough to get accepted into the program, I could be an A320 F/O within 2 or 3 years of training. Or I could go through the traditional method to be a pilot and get my CPL, then build enough hours as a flight instructor to get employed at an airline. However with the traditional method your not guaranteed a spot at an airline whereas have briefly spoke to 2 different Airline pilots, Both of them telling me that with a cadetship your pretty much are guaranteed a job as long as you pass everything (They only say a job isn't guaranteed because some people fail the exams). I will probably get my RPL license in 1 or 2 years but I've heard from other forums that Cadetship programs prioritise people with little or no previous aircraft experience. I also understand that due to Covid, there will be an overflow of pilots who have lost their jobs and airline positions could be very sparse but this might clear up in a few years. I get good grades in Maths, English and Science and I have an Interest in Planes. Any advice would be appreciated.

If being an airline pilot is what you want, a cadetship is the fastest way to get there.

If you want, and can afford to fly beforehand, then to the best of my knowledge that won’t put you at any kind of disadvantage to be selected as a cadet. Bear in mind that you most likely would have to repeat any lessons you’d already done as most cadet programs start at lesson 1, regardless of prior experience.

At 15 I also only wanted to be a pilot. Consider the future of the profession - downward pressure on terms and conditions, lots of missed birthdays, Christmases, family events. At your age automated airliners starts to be a real concern too, how will the next generation of airliners look? Single pilot? No pilots? Who knows, but I suspect it’s coming.

I feel lucky that I’ve had a relatively good career so far, but the good jobs are becoming fewer and farther between. Unless you have a green card. If you’re open to moving overseas, have a look at the thread regarding Aussies working in the states. If it’s still an option in a few years it’s worth considering.

I would actively discourage my son from going into aviation. I would encourage him to do something where there is more likelihood of him becoming his own boss, even if he didn’t want to run his own business at least he’d have the option.

All that said when I was 15 almost nothing could’ve discouraged me from choosing this career, but that’s my take on it after 20 odd years in the industry.

Considering the cost around self funded CPL/FIR/IFR is some mind boggling number, competition for cadet courses will continue to increase and increase from other like minded pilots. The Jetstar course gets thousands and thousands of applications, just take into account everyone essentially walks away disappointed.

On the flip, It’s just not viable for many to spend what now is a house deposit on flight training, to then earn 50 grand for the next 6/7/8 years post that. It really is a terrible investment if you look closely at it, vs taking another career path. I am lucky I have an understanding wifey who put up with all that associated bull****, just take that into account also, the impact on others. My family made it to the other end with me, a stable left hand seat, good retirement funding job, however only just, and I mean just……nearly fell apart (well actually did) during GA jobs and early Jet jobs moving around. Probably the reason I wouldn’t do this again, not get my kids into it, the family pressures it can take due to whatever employment route you end up taking. Taking multiple ‘breaks’ with our relationship with young kids while I battle it out in GA and early Airline jobs wasn’t a great experience.

I disagree with that, assuming one is a competent individual, self funding and being job ready mid this decade, throw on about 10 years ‘in the GA trenches’ and I really think jobs will be plentiful in larger aircraft/operators. Generation changeover in this profession, down under, is the 2030s, in which very little will remain post that, those getting first GA jobs in the not to far future in my opinion, are going to have pretty good careers, once all us old buggers depart. I think will be some retention issues at some places here throughout the back half of this decade also, when the foreign players start throwing cash around again, further opening up opportunities here.

Very. Previous programs had success rates of only the top 1-2% of applicants. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t apply, just prepare yourself for selection with the upmost effort.

If you gain entrance into said program it’ll be because of your effort and preparation, not luck. If you’re successful in gaining entrance to that program and graduating you could potentially be an A320 F/O in 2 years. Australia is an outlier in that most of the rest of the world (outside the USA) you go from basic CPL/IR training to F/O on a turboprop or a jet with about 200hrs as standard.

Or if the company that gave you that cadetship
isn’t hiring at the end of it. But if that’s the case you’re no worse off than one who trained at a traditional GA flying school, and when hiring does pick up again you should be first cab off the rank for recruitment.

They like to see some interest in aviation (maybe an RPL or no more than a few dozen hours). But not too much, firstly you’ll just have to waste money doing the whole CPL course from scratch again. And secondly they do like to train to their SOPs, easier to do with a blank slate in some cases.

It’s already cleared up now. As Asian capacity returns over the next year shortages will get even worse.

The QGPA and the Rex Cadet program are either training new courses or accepting applications for upcoming courses right now. You still have a bit of time ahead of you as you won’t be starting training for at least 3-4 years. By then a recruitment wave will have passed and a lull period may be in effect. But you’ll never be able to time a wave perfectly.

Book smarts and aviation interest is one thing, but airlines will really want to see things like communication skills, ability to operate in a team, maturity, ability to get along with other adults (whom you’ll be working with).

I think I will probably get my RPL, then apply for the Cadetships like Jetstar Cadet, Virgin Australia, Rex and the Qantas Group Pilot Academy. If I'm accepted into none of the Cadetship programs then I'll probably have to pay a fortune to get my CPL, then become a flight Instructor and work my way up with GA.

I have a strong work ethic and I'm motivated to become a pilot, and I'm a social person with good communication skills who would have no trouble to operating in a team, being mature, and getting along with other pilots. I'm also involved in physically demanding sports and believe that I can work well in high pressure environments.

The effort needed on a cadet course will far exceed what you need in high school or a part time job,

Are you sure about that? You’re only 15 and you aren’t even close to the end of high school. You’ll be entering a demanding program where you’ll be expected to be responsible for your progression and effort, and be expected to be at an adult level of maturity quite quickly. Far beyond where you will be at grade 9-10.

A lot of cadets taken years back had some life experience outside of high school, whether it be work, uni or other training. Although not rare for one to go directly from high school to cadet training within a few months, most who had a few years of experience in the adult world showed better maturity, communication and other HF skills than those who were applying in their final year of school, and were favoured in selection.

These programs aren’t just for high school leavers, and it wouldn’t be unusual to be told whilst they like your character they think you could benefit from a few years “life experience”, and to reapply then.

From your point of view just concentrate on finishing high school for now, as you would have at least 3 years to go, and start seriously thinking about career later. If you can get some mentors, active adult pilots employed in the industry, who can guide you along the way, and are prepared to give you honest constructive feedback about your character.

Whilst you may believe you have good teamwork and communication skills and are mature you are not able to objectively judge that yourself, especially at your age. A good mentor can assess that and provide you with constructive feedback if required.

There’s no correlation between playing “physically demanding sports” and competence as a pilot. Some of the biggest ‘jocks’ can be quite average in the flying department.

English??

Perhaps learn the difference between "your" and "you're". In aviation there will also be "yaw" to trip you up. We Spelling Police are always on patrol.

Thanks for the feedback.

CASA in NZ
 

Hello,

Australian. Was made redundant from Virgin group in Aus in 2020 with lots of others. Have not flown since. Want to fly again. Spat out of cyclic 2020 with no IR, promises from Virgin to requalify us evaporated. Have not flown light a/c for a long time.

Currently in NZ, and understand it is possible to requalify (in some capacity - will address that below) here in NZ but under AU Part 61, with approval to do test in ZK tail etc.
Q. Can someone help me, finding a school or a person that might do this or know about doing this?

Either in a sim, or in a light aircraft, really just want to be in a position to be employable again in AU and NZ after doing Trans Tasman thing - but need my AU ATPL /IR back first.
Not necessarily looking for requalification on a specific type. Obviously can go to Aus and do it in the Metro or Saab sim, having lots of time on those, may do this but wanted to try in NZ first. Don't want to spend huge amounts - this is big factor.

CASA swear they have no list of CASA accredited examiners or organisations in NZ which seems rather odd. Already found a CASA DAME here no prob.

Any assistance would be appreciated chaps.

RVAC
 

Hi all,

Anyone have any specific experiences with doing the Diploma of Aviation at Royal Victorian Aero Club in Moorabbin?

Please reach out, even via private message if you don't want it to be public.

Chopz

Whichever path you choose, you will have to pass 7 cpl + 7 atpl + irex exams.
They (books+exams) cost a fraction of the flight training and can be paid as you go,
Good luck

Having no examiners in another country is not odd, however having only 3 examiners in Victoria who can examine other examiners is odd.

You may try here:
​​​​​​
https://flighttest.net/flight-examiners/

Great outfit, both HOO and CP have worked hard to modernise the flying school part of the club. The club itself is not-for-profit (all funds stay in the club for the betterment of members/students), which gives some reassurance of not being taken for a ride like some loan backed training providers have done in the past. There are also no cadets taking planes or instructors away from you - the Diploma students seem to take precedence. Fleet aging but well kept and equipped.

If you have to go FEE-HELP, RVAC is a good way to do it.

RAAF - Fast jet minimum service period
 

Very subjective question but here goes.

I am currently 18 and would like to join the RAAF in mid 2024 to pursue my goal of becoming a fighter pilot. I have put between 15 and 20 hours towards my RPL just over a year ago but stopped due to my final year of school.

I have recently finished school, and am thinking towards the future. I have other goals I would like to pursue other than flying, and would want to start achieving those sooner rather than later, as they will take time.

My main question is regarding the fast jet role, and the minimum service time for such.

As far as I can find on the ADF website, it states that there is a 11.5 year commitment for Direct Entry Officers or a 1-6 year commitment through general entry. What would be my best option to become a fast jet pilot, but also serve for the least amount of time so I can pursue my other goals?

​​​​​​​Cheers

The air force IMPS for pilots is 11.5 years for males. General entry (the 1-6 year IMPS) means enlisted roles, whilst Officer Aviation (pilot stream) is an officer role.

As an 18 year old you may have ideas of how you want your life to play out, but I can guarantee you, opportunities will arise in the next few years which will lead you down pathways you'd never think you'd be going down. My advice is forget the "other goals" and focus on one thing for now.

Alot of debt
 

Hey, I'm a new joiner that would like to ask for some advice on jobs and whether anyone else is in my situation on the level of VET debt they have.
Three years ago, I finished the CPL, Instrument Rating, and Instructor Rating (well Instructor Rating was a recent achievement), almost all on VET debt. I also applied for a small loan for some of this training. The total cost of everything from 0 hours to full graduate is $161,000 (AUD).
I'm also 42 years old and made the switch from Call Centre to becoming a Professional Pilot around 39. I am now struggling to get a mortgage because the banks loan against the VET debt (which I didn't know until it was too late).
Before the Instructor Rating, I also drove to Broome and across to Katherine and remained in Katherine for 6 months post-CPL until I got broken into & decided to leave and do the Instructor Rating down south again. Thanks to the helpful advice here, I went "north" but was not successful in a job but didn't like the crime wave moving from Alice Springs (it's worse now apparently).
It is just me but are others struggling to get a Grade 3 job or any type of entry-level flying job? I spoke to a CP on the Gold Coast over the phone who had over 30 applications for a recent Grade 3 position. Unfortunately, I was lured into flight training at my midlife thinking I'd have no problems getting a job at the end, while spending the rest of my life paying off the debt. I've now gone back to my original Call Centre position in the south and not sure on the next move.

Grant

P.s. Thank you everyone for the 'go north' advice. It didn't pay off for me but the experience of the wet season (from the ground), Kakadu, and drive in general is really great.

Haha yeah mate I'm sort of in the same boat here - did all three tickets on VET with a CPL in hand 3 years ago, been all around the top end and never found a job, but loved the experience anyway.

So if the bank considers VET debt in a mortgage application, what do they want to see before they'll give you a mortgage? A higher income than if you didn't have the debt?

I feel like a lot of flight schools are in love with themselves. Ya know the old "we teach it this way and we think it is the best way / better than the school down the road". Funny thing is the schools with that attitude either have no practical experience flying or did their stint in rough and tough GA like 30 years ago. I have cold called and resume dropped a number of schools and whilst some are stand up blokes who will even tell you where else to resume drop, others are super tight and don't seem to care about you.

I don't know about you mate but I'd rather be flying than working in a god damn call centre. I know the feeling though, of not knowing what to do after having been around the whole country looking for a job.

I've come across a bit of work as of last week which will involve some flying, and I found work late last year for about 30 hrs of paid flying. Both these gigs have come from people I know, not from resume dropping, emailing or cold-calling. So with the big entry level operators in the top end, like you said, I'm pretty sure after I drop in a resume somewhere and have a chat with the big dog, another two dozen more charismatic, well connected, skilled people come in after me. Anyway might be good if your next move is to just network a bit more? There are fellas (farmers, tradies, doctors) with planes all round the country that need flying, not just in the top end. If you properly get into the circles around Melbourne ya never know who might have a mate who needs a guy to do some flying.

The worst thing is knowing fellas who have gotten jobs straight out of flight school / a couple months after moving up north. It kind of makes it seem even more impossible and out of reach. I mean, good on em, some of them are working in sh*t conditions, like being shafted with their pay, being based out remote for years, or being psychologically manipulated (yes you know who I'm talking about).

Another thing that helped me not stress so much about not having a flying job after so long of looking / so long post CPL, was broadening my world beyond flying. I started doing my licences in high school and a huge part of my identity was flying. Recently I've broadened out and started doing all kinds of other things and getting involved with other groups. Flying is nowhere near as huge to me now and there are jobs on the ground I'd probably take over jobs in the air.

Also if you have an FPC that is due that's a great opportunity to get a job. Some flight schools seem to hate hiring G3s they don't know...

Grant & Blood,
Speaking as an employer, I have found that Grade 3s take a lot of time and supervision to become an autonomous and productive part of the team (no surprises there, but needs to be said). For a smaller organisation, they might simply find it unworkable to devote the attention of a Grade 1 in this way.
My advice to you as a jobseeker is to ensure you can
- offer other valuable skills; and/or
- demonstrate similar skills eg; hospitality skills that transfer into an Aviation/Customer service setting.
We have never employed Grade 3s before COVID but of the 3 since June 2020, all were flying ME Charter as part of their work mix within 12 months.

Marketing spin and "unique selling points" aside, it is a lot easier to employ you as a Grade 3 if you have learnt to fly AND earnt your Instructor rating using the same briefs, patter, aeroplanes and admin as the school already uses,

Good luck with it

Thanks for this! do you think the chances are really slim of getting a G3 job if you do the G3 course with flight school X but apply for a G3 position with flight school Y?

Glad I'm not the only one, which I suspected I wasn't but congrats on those little "breaks" you got. I've also applied for "operations" and Store Hand jobs at a few operators up north and Alice Springs. I will take anything at this stage.

I definitely don't enjoy the Call Centre life! But I don't really have a choice until something gives in the flying industry.

You are right though, it seems to be a "networking game" and the guy/gal that can network the best will "win" that coveted C210 position :-) When I was in the Top End, I did notice quite a few guys are getting jobs with a GA Ready Course? It's a big sigh as it's another $5,000 (or close to) for C210 time (they claim is 5 to 10 hours) but you are essentially paying for your own ICUS. My next step is to re-charge my savings and do this GA Ready thing. Did you come across this?

Hi all,

I am hoping someone may be able to help me out with something.

I started flying in 2020, learning in a PA28, let's just say It took me a little longer to reach solo, I needed 35 hours over the course of 18months. Thank you covid! However I did manage to do 5 x solo circuits.

Anyway, after going solo we had locked down again and I was over it by this point so I took a break and decided I would return to flying once I knew lockdowns were definitely over. Fast forward another 18 months and I am in a C152 starting from the beginning.

Has anyone made the transition between the two and felt uncomfortable in the C152? I was confident in the PA28 (eventually), I didn't seem to feel the wind or turbulence to the level that a C152 feels. Now I feel like I am not in control the same way I was and flying is back to being a challenging experience rather than one I was confident doing.

Is it just one of those things that I've had too long a break and it really is starting again because I felt having previous experience I would be comfortable with switching to a C152. Going solo seems like such a huge hurdle.

I hope someone can share their thoughts, this forum has been a safe and educational space.

Chopz

Chopz, covid was a hassle for lots of folks, so you're not alone! Starting my training in Warrior, after many long breaks for various reasons up to and after my PPL I had a similar issue struggling to feel comfortable in even a C172, let alone the 152. FWIW, I still haven't made the change!

Cessnas and Pipers (high wing vs low wing) really are very different aircraft and really do 'feel' different. As a low hour student, how you feeI is going to be really important to your ability to learn the important stuff - operating the aircraft - and moving to something completely different will certainly cost you more in hours, so I'd suggest you stay with the PA28 - at least until after going solo. :)

Core stick and rudder flying skills are essential and my opinion is that the Cessna 152 is the best ab initio trainer around to achieve that. I see some types used in basic training which are really unsuitable for that purpose - even the POH of some prohibit manoeuvres required by CASA Part 61.

I get some wanting a tailwheel endorsement who have only flown a PA-28 previously and I know it will take much longer so I advise them to do some dual circuits in a 152 first to save some money.

You fellas that did CPL, Instructor and Instrument Ratings on FEE-HELP, who advised you to do all three in quick succession? Did anybody tell you you've got sweet **** all chance of getting an IFR job with a bare commercial and an instrument rating? Did anyone tell you that flight training schools couldn't give a rats arse about your instrument rating when you're applying for a G3 position? Did anyone tell you it'll be at least 3 to 5 years before you use that Instrument Rating? (so why do it?) Did any of you do research on the job market before you committed to a loan that would still buy a house in some regional areas? The historical cyclical nature of aviation recruitment? Did any of you read Fate Is The Hunter? Or Biggles books? Or any cool aviation books?

Do any of you know who Charles Kingsford Smith is? Or Nancy Bird? Or Geraldine Mock? Have any of you done a flight to a really cool outback destination with your mates, like Birdsville. Or the Bathurst 1000?

In several decades of aviation I know of multiple pilots who've been doing paid IFR flying within 12 months of getting their CPL. May not be the norm for most but it's happened. An advantage to having it done is you may be the only pilot in a company with an IR, and on the day the boss needs an IR pilot as the current ones have all left suddenly then it's easier to take the one with the rating and give them a refresher than train others from scratch.

Not really. I haven't met too many who've read those books today, and of the ones who have that doesn't necessarily mean they are more competent than those who haven't. I'd rather them read the regs, study guides, ops manuals etc.

A passion for aviation is good, but that doesn't necessarily translate to competence.

I didn't ask you.

Chasing me around the boards matey? Careful, I'll have you up for stalking ;)

Alright matey, big fella here, who you asked.

I didn't do all three tickets in quick succession.