while Rome burns
We wargame so much stuff, but it seems no one saw this coming (except EVERYONE at the end of their Rosos) and by the time they get around to doing anything, those that they had a chance to keep will already be gone or so far down the planning track it will be too late to turn them around (it is for me).
The government even gave defence money (and direction) for retention. Army and Navy reacted, RAAF didn't.
Its all happened before but those left had far more hours than now. Hopefully their are better systems in place now but the past has shown when there is such a loss of guys at the FLTLT/SQNLDR level bad things happen.
I'm sure however there is great concern to make sure all the ground jobs are full!!!!

The strong rumours I was hearing a month or so ago had an excessive commitment for a paltry amount of money. Wouldn't make an iota of difference to anyone who was inclined to leave in the first place. Would be nice for those who were going to stay anyway, as these things always are.

Then again, who is that? The only people I know who intend to stay for any length of time are already spec aircrew.

pay and conditions
 

Space, you seem to understand the jargon so can I ask, what is the sort of money that a senior FLTLT QFI or Junior SQNLDR could expect to be on in the RAAF now. Trya nd give a best guess of the overall package if you are able, any lurks - other than cheap beer at mess...

Am ex Raaf and thinking about coming back in so want to see what they are offering.... not doing it for the money .... just need socks and undies.

thanks

Sorry mate I am not Space but I will throw a figure out there.
From what I know about what I am paid and what my mates are getting, a senior FLTLT will crack 6 figs sometime in the last few years of ROSO.

Most guys at end of ROSO are on about 110K.

I am not even going to try and speculate about how much medical and all that stuff is worth. Housing allowances are probably worth about 10-15K pre-tax per year.

Not going to do the job of Recruiting, but you can try this link to run 'Compare Your Package' which was designed to encourage ADF folks to stay: http://www.defence.gov.au/cyp/
Some question about some of the assumptions like the value of housing etc.
Heard the potential bonus would be focussed on just those with a post graduate qual (QFI, FCI, TP). Anyone heard similar?

Max FLTLT Pay, on Max flying pay (+10yrs post wings)=$114,000.

Add around $10,000 in rent savings
$1000 in Medical

And about $20,000 a year for being in a sandpit for 2-4 months.

At least you'd be well prepared for the sand pit Woodja!

If you want to get super clever about remuneration comparison, you take into account the superannuation. Believe it of not, the ADF super is not too bad.

Since I'm not super clever, I did not include it in my comparison. I worked out that a maxed out (10+ year) SQNLDR who is flying is worth about 135-145K. This includes housing benefits, health insurance and medical.

As for a 'retention benefit'.....If it's going to happen, I can't help but think it is too little, too late.

I also think that the RAAF can be grateful that there are some pilots out there who have not (at this time) got their ducks lined up to have their ATPL sorted....

You're probably right PAF.

I wasn't trying to say it was a definitive decision make/break aspect (REF: superannuation). I don't know enough about it and therefore I won't comment- employer vs employer vs performance etc etc. I only mentioned it because it may be a consideration for some, depending on personal circumstances.

However it is something I (personally) would look into before making a big career change after a significant period of time in one organisation, perhaps maybe only to confirm I wasted my time looking into it. :)

Albert Einstein no doubt said a whole bunch of other stuff for a reason too....just gotta work out the reason. ;)

RAAF retention
 

Its been interesting to see this thread develop over the last few months. I think if you're waiting for a bonus, you're dreaming. I have been privvy to a very high level discussion which moved along the lines of:

"Do we really need that many QFI's in Sqn XX?"; and "There needs to be a more realistic appraisal of the actual QFI numbers we need". The clear implication was we have enough instructors.:confused:

Another priceless comment was:

"Let's see if there are any more efficiencies to be gained from the current system." :DWell there you go. Problem solved folks.

I am also aware that within the next couple of years Air Force will be called upon to significantly increase their pilot output. The numbers they are talking about (and it's a lot more!) are simply unachievable with current staffing levels.

The one thing I'm certain about is the system will resist with all its might in paying more money to what are perceived as 'greedy' pilots. Sadly this attitude is displayed from the top down. But there are some pilots who work a lot harder, and contribute more than others. PG quals (QFI, FCI..etc) should be recognised in monetary terms.

There are some simple measures the RAAF could take to retain people without breaking the bank. I have enjoyed the RAAF immensely, but I'm looking at getting out because my wife and I are fed up with moving. If you've ever had to up stakes with young kids you'll know what I mean.:{

I was a very experienced instructor on an operational type, and naively assumed the system would look after me. Well...not so, and after much futile screaming and shouting was shunted on to a most undesired location, simply because it was "time for me to career broaden."

What does not compute with the hierarchy is that most pilots do not want to be CO's or higher. If you leave us in one location, many of us will be happy to keep training the young guys coming through. :ugh:

Dostrum - nice post for first time pruner.

Like you and many others I am looking at leaving the RAAF soon. Like you I am a senior QFI having had various training management roles, and have been party to meetings various about QFI shortages etc. I am convinced we are on the verge of major capability shortfalls by the ignorance and inaction of our senior leadership, and our training system will suffer over the next years from lack of experienced FCI/QFIs. Action is needed now to support these guys so they stay on, and to train their own replacements too. The 10 year ROSO will hold some, but resignations are now also starting to flow into DP from ALG/ACG and this will build to a constant flow over some years unless something is done now that holds the supervisory level together.

Personally, my family and I would be significantly better off financially by staying in the RAAF until I reach age 55 on my 10+year flying pay and tapping more of the Mil super scheme (which is exceptionally generous if you stay in long term). We would be financially very happy, and able to retire early. So why not stay on? It has been a deep issue for me because I actually love the spirit of working in the Service and the dedication of its good people.

The main reason is that our family’s future is continuously put at risk by a system that provides no long term plan for us. If we had a long-term future career path (not just job-shifting) that was negotiated jointly with DP, we could stay. But we are continuously put at risk to move to any job and any location, re-setup our lives and go an do whatever. DP staff have tried to address issues like this, and we have stayed on because of good people there to look after us – but that is the people, not policy. Also recently I see little leadership and a lot of pep talk from the very top, and little real decision-making is evident. There is a lack of courage to call shots, do what is right despite the penalty, or take action that disrupts their own careers. Without good leadership, people will not trust their futures to the organisation. Unit commanders are bound up in contracts and administration processes that restricts them from full command. There are messages like “we are a RAAF family”, but I know trainers that are stressed out with the rate of effort in training, suffering stress, and units calling out for more resources to keep up the training effort as dictated, but still the SLT does not act. Arrogance is mixed with silence. I also worry about the accidents of the past that directly related to corporate knowledge decay in training (like B707), and hope our key people can hold it together while the supervision shrinks away. And I worry that once the key trainers leave, we have few ways to regenerate the capability, since the RAAF is much smaller than in the past, is more stretched and fragile. There is no ‘fat’ left.

So now in my middle ages, an opportunity has come up to work for a LCC, on much less salary than I am on now, and will require me to work years longer before we can retire. But by leaving the RAAF we can have the location my family wants, potential fast career progression during worldwide shortage of experience (that appears unprecedented and long term), and the full control of our destiny. My wife will not need to give up the job she struggled to get, my kids education and friendships not be disrupted, and despite expecting to work harder with long hours with a LCC, I won’t feel at all compelled to be at work unless I am flying. Unless the world falls over. So be it:p

Roller,

If you fail to plan, plan to fail. I think that sums up the RAAF that I have observed in my time in the service and out. The sheer pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face is characteristic of senior management. Luckily the RAAF survived '87/88 and most of the nineties despite some shocking accidents and a widespread view that 'we've never seen such low levels of experience'. The RAAF has never had a recruiting or training problem - its always been RETENTION. Neither recruiting nor training are solutions.

Which brings me to a question - in your opinion would civilanisation of the Training Command QFI workforce solve this twin experience/retention problem?

One of the other major problems I see is that the RAAF relies on turnover. Not everyone wants to stay in the same job, same location - purely because not all jobs/locations are desirable. Therein lies the issue - fill the slots of all the desirable jobs, keep those guys in there until they retire and there's then only the undesirable jobs left for anyone else. How is that going to work?

It's no different to other places being discussed around here, they need to stop treating it like a business enterprise and treat it for what it is...unique; with unique requirements. If they want to make it a business form a union :}

CS,

I think we're effectively going down that road now with the plan for reservist/ex-senior officers manning the FTS - understand it works in the RAF. The big argument for not civilianising was always that BFTS/2FTS were the places to 'grow' the SQN QFIs of the future. If you purely civilianise then how does that happen? BAES have been after it for years. The likes of Milskill are being considered at a high level to do it. Not sure how we could fully civilianise and yet still put QFIs into OCUs/SQNs. Partialy civilianise - why not?

Certainly the view in the SLT is that we should blur the line between reservists and PAF. If you leave the PAF but become a reservist then the RAAF have retained you. This makes quite a lot of sense - until we go to war of course!

Roller Merlin,

not in any way disagreeing or arguing with what you say, but;

it ain't all roses and its getting worse in the airlines - the pilot shortage may be rearing its head but the one thing that wont change is the work rate in the airlines - they are squeezing every last drop out of the crew in this day and age. Domestic flying in Qantas is TIRING, and the LC carriers are worse. What am I saying; in 2007 the airlines aren't necessarily the lifestyle option they sometimes appear.

You will rarely (never?) be home for for Christmas etc, probably miss most birthdays etc etc. For a experienced RAAF pilot there ain't much difference in quality of the job between left and right; the only thing going for it is the money! Which isn't a lot in the LCC's!


I often saw us being our own worst enemies when I was in; we would get the job done and screw the workload. Did they leadership always know how hard we were working?? As a SQN exec its often hard to rein in the boys sometimes!!

For the same reasons as RM, I too have left(leaving) for a LCC....or is that NWC now?
Anyway I digress.
I love the Airforce, what it does and (most) of the people in it. So much so in a lot of ways I have been looking for an excuse to stay.
But I have to agree with some of the new points raised here. I don't believe those who make the d's give a toss at the loss rate now (they probably will soon but as before it will be too late). Why?
Well a prime example at the moment is the EOIs for pilots that have been recently released for the AEW&C and C17 QFI. Both designed to exclude people at the end of ROSO. Either of these jobs would be enough to make me stay but I and anyone else at end of ROSO is excluded. I'm guessing becuase they have plenty of ground jobs for the likes of me to fill. I'm not saying I'd get the job at all, however apparently I'm too experienced now to even put my hat in the ring.
As for QFIs the civiy/reserve thing might work for BFTS but guys love going back to 2FTS for pilots course without the stess. Its actually a 2 year move/posting that helps retention and becoming a QFI does a lot of good for a trash haulers skills. If they took that posting away it would only result in having lots of FLTLTs for ground jobs!

Snoozer: I believe 2FTS has potential for 3-5 contracted QFIs, in addition the few Reserve guys. These ‘greybeards’ can hold the standards and help mentor the newbies during high staff turnover. Yes it does work for the RAF. Yes there will be enough space left for the newbie’s to develop and return to the FEGs as rounded instructors. It will cost more money.

BFTS is a different equation. The ex-mil QFIs interested in civie jobs mainly want lifestyle and location. Hence 2FTS - they like, BFTS- they don’t. There are NO ex-mil QFIs currently in Saudi or elsewhere on the books of recruiting companies that are interested in going to Tamworth. BAe management has learned that to get new “non-ex-mil” civie instructors up to standards across the range of training takes at least 3-6 months and costs them heaps in internal training, and then these guys can leave at any time. And BAe pay much less than a LCC. Meanwhile the small number of mil QFIs carry the extra load, with little surge capacity. Duhh!. This is the inflexible arrangement we (ADF) contracted into. And BFTS is where the big student numbers will arrive next year – beyond current capacity. Fixing this will cost the ADF lots and lots more money.

Marg: Undesirable but skilled jobs need to be compensated for appropriately, then there will always be takers. But this will cost the ADF more money.

ftrplt: I know a LCC will be tiring, and you are spot on - the grass is brown on both sides of the fence, and I have played there before too. But the timing seems right, and with demand outstripping supply of pilots over the next 10 years, airline T&C will need to adjust to market demands over time. (so I hope!) Just look at the numbers over the next few years: Emirates +500, Etihad +350, VB +200 ish, JQ +200 ish, Cathay +lots. China and India middle classes booming and wanting to fly. Yes airlines will do everything to keep the labour force in check, but at some point bettering the T&C for pilots will become more cost effective than parking airframes whilst paying their leases. Evidence this “new” paradigm is evolving now can be seen at Rex, Skippers and NJS – increasing T&C for pilots (ie: for captains, and thus FOs) will eventually save airlines in their bottom line!

Roller,

Airlines arent all what those from the sheltered work shop (QF) say they are.I am sure even a herc pilots job would be more exciting!!! There is a lot of pressure to leave and join an airline, but not many facts that now state why you should. In the 80s and early 90s when RAAF pay was low and airline pay was high, and DFRDB was the retriement option, it was a no brainer. But times have changed.

With MSBS now including your flight pay, you have one of the best retirement funds around.You really dont need to save for retirement, apart from owning ya house. Once you leave, the major part of your MSBS grows at CPI (factored of course). It goes nowhere. It will take you years to catch up on what you have lost if you go onto a higher pay, you never catch up if you go onto the same or lower pay. You will therefore have to work a lot longer to be able to afford to retire. Might not seem like a biggie now, but give it a few years.

My suggestion would be stay in. Spend ya money on some big toys, ie: the boat, the aeroplane that goes upside down and all the holidays you want. Do Ronnies work Monday to Friday and enjoy your weekends off....(you dont get them on the other side).

A mate described his time flying with an Oz domestic carrier as flying the same hour 900 times per year. I see Tiger is asking the guys to do 1000hrs a year. This is not something to do if you want to live long and prosper!!!

We should have all become plumbers.

Don

Cheer up Don, it's not that bad.:)

From Page 2

785 knots at 2.35 m??? Could only be a Saturn 5 rocket that fell off its stumps.

I left the RAAF because of their utter stupidity. They set out to make everyone so damned dependant on them that they don't want to leave, but it works quite the opposite. That was 20 years ago; may have changed.

You raise a interesting point PAF
One of the greatest frauds (IMHO) was that bit of paper. It gave all the reasons for signing ie gurantee your job etc etc, but didn't EVER make any mention of why you shouldn't sign ie access your $ at 45 if you were still a FLTLT, of course a worthy ambition I say! The only mention was you should consult an expert at your own cost of course and who has a 25yr old FLTLT would do that!
That was a major learning point in not being able to trust those in charge!!!!

How bout a can of harden up
 

OK I appreciate the point being put across here WRT the QFI shortage.
I am a Current Army QFI (not many of us left so I may be giving myself away here) I often get the ****s with how people within the training center "dig" themselves in and resist postings out of the TC and back to the OP SQNS. The Sqn's are screaming for QFI's to continue with their training programmes, but not many want to come back to an OP role.
So my point here is if you have just enjoyed a bit of respite in a training environment (by respite I mean you have had every other weekend off and a 95% solution of your weekly trg plan for the last 2 years) then its time to get back to the Operational units. If your not up to the Sqn ROE then move on to a civi posting.
So my important points here are if your a Sqn QFI then these points are not directed to you, as I feel that we are the ones doing the hard yards. If your a TC QFI stop whining and appreciate your service allowance!
So my post is bound to piss some people off but its my point of view and I thing that the issues faced by RAAF and ARA are very similar.

Yes, I also know of 2 senior SQNLDRs, one of who was destined to be a CO next, both threw the towel in over the last 2 weeks. Damning bit is that neither has a job to go to - now there's a social comment, not that we have a problem, (apparently).

Also know of 4 guys on one unit who all are at second stage interview stage with either Cathay/Qantas or both. 3 x SQNLDRs, one a senior FLTLT.

I did also hear last week that the retention bonus was being looked at again and that it was now perceived that it may have been a mistake to turn it off 2 months ago - we shall see.

Pilots must leave the RAAF between 28 and 33 yo.

This will enable:
1. You to stabilise your family life in one locality.
2. You to earn more money with the airlines.
3. Ensure that the RAAF pilot training machine is kept healthy by training more pilots to take your place.

Everybody wins...

Lads,

The concept of a retention bonus is fundamentally flawed for a number of reasons.

1. They simply cannot pay a sufficient bonus to match the long term airline package. Assume that you delay movement to an airline, for every year you remain in the RAAF is a year (or more) that you are not an airline captain. The numbers have been crunched, and to match an airline package requires paying a FLTLT an AIRCDRE wage. Not going to happen !!

2. Most pilots don't leave because of the money. They leave to gain locationaly stability, to stay flying and have up to 15 days a month off. The reality is, the RAAF pay well.

3. As the flying role in the RAAF becomes more complicated, people are working much harder in all flying areas. Most see airlines as an escape from ridiculous work rate of effort. Its simply not worth the stress when there is an alternative option.

4. As senior pilot numbers fall, those that remain must work that much harder to sustain the readiness. See point 3.

5. Flying hours have fallen significantly and the line drivers get next to no flying in many squadrons.

6. The numbers of availabilities in the various ground jobs is through the roof as everyone leaves. If a senior pilot thinks he will stay flying, tell him he's dreamin'.

The RAAF is very aware of pilot motivation and knows that a retention benefit is ineffective. The reality is, 60% of pilots will leave regardless of any bonus as they want the life options airlines offer, 30% will be unable to get employment outside and have to stay in the RAAF (so a bonus is useless). The remaining 10% may be tempted to stay. Government legislation however prevents the RAAF specifically targeting this 10%. If they offer a bonus , it must be paid to all remaining. So you are paying a bonus to 40% when you are really only aiming to target 10%. Even the RAAF's appalling accounting cant justify this.

Spec aircrew, is on the other hand a good option. For some reason however, some FEGS are reluctant to implement it.

my 2cents worth

Hugh,

Not sure I entirely agree.

Cash does make a difference - obviously if we were paid $1M each we'd all stay, equally the amount required varies from individual to individual and the feeling is that we are, perhaps, underpaid compared to what's on offer outside and this needs to be remedied - the plan is that this may happen in next years pay review with the glass ceiling of PG10 increasing with perhaps tertiary quals like QFI/FCI etc. Unfortunately the volume of leavers is too large and increasing and in an effort to stem the flow a short term, and aimed bonus may help. Your point 2 is in direct conflict with your point one - we aren't paid well if there's so much more on offer outside.

Agreed, area stability becomes a player as you get older and we do need to look at it. That said in my experience DP are willing to trade - especialy now.

Point 3/4 - I don't mind the work rate, for me (and it is a personal view and not one everyone will share) I like to go to work and achieve something and I believe I'd be bored stupid after a couple of years in the airlines. I now have a number of my era re-entering the mil after 3+ years flying civil for just that reason.

Not sure either about your last point with 30% of aircrew unable to get a civi job; you'd be hard pushed to not get an airline job somewhere with 10 years plus mil time (on anything!) and an ATPL at the moment.

My unit had heard all the rumours about the bonus, also the subsequent turning off and delay to next year - the change in attitude was marked and a number actively reviewed their position because they felt undervalued. Yes, I know, dry your eyes princess. The point was that there was an expectation of a bonus and therefore the lack of it was a disincentive. The reality was that it's all been done through rumour, we need more comms on this. Shep's article in the popular aviation press on aircrew retention was just appallingly timed, he needs better advice or he needs to listen.

Not sure about you, the amount being discussed would be enough to keep me in for a further 5 years - time will tell if the amount reported is real or a furphy.

I agree entirely that if you leave it too late (and we have) then the quality guys are so far down the road of leaving that you lose them anyway. Remember we do want to lose some - the system relies on it, just not this many!

The other point is that the RAAF has always been like this, it's just this time it coincides with a worldwide airline recruitment drive and we're also bringing an unprecedented number of new airframes on line - that's not good at all.

Spec Aircrew
 

Spec Aircrew does seem like a good idea, I absolutely refused to go through 18 months of RMC bullsh!t to become a GSO pilot, would only accept 8 week SSO Cse, against the wishes of all I encounted during the selection process.
I know the current system discourages all but the greenest of soldiers undertaking in-service pilot transfers and discourages pilots who can get a job flying outside the ADF from even joining.
Just to clarify, I was never an Army Pilot. I was in another aircrew position and passed pilot selection in 2002. I decided to persue a civillian flying career instead and discharged from the ADF soon after.

"Flying for the RAAF is a young man's job. Put simply, if they had wanted you to have a family, they would have issued you one" - this cracked me up...I'll pay that one Capt K. (LOL!)

What does it offer you when the downturn comes...as inevitably it will?

I cant fathom why the RAAF hasn't introduced different pay scales for different roles. Surely a F/A-18 pilot should be paid more than a C-130J co-pilot.

And if you dont like it then you should have spent more time prepping in the classroom instead of writing spam in the course lines book.

I certainly would require more pay to be an F/A18 pilot, what with the long hours of pointless work and the social stigma and all.

Pay 'em, I say!

Yeah, that's all we need. Knucks with big egos and even bigger wallets.

All those egos and only one personality. :ugh:

Pay for platform
 

:hmm: Not sure about that, I met an f-111 pilot who transfered (maybe even disc-re-enlist) over to 38 Sqn in order to avoid promotion to a desk job. he seemed very happy flying Gravel trucks (as would I be) and was certainly no less skilled.

Disclaimer: previous post may have been a wind up
 

Damn only a couple of bites!

that's because it was a pathetic attempt at a wind up that not even a boggie would have disgraced himself with...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....thats the reel winding out...fair nuff;)

I understand there's now a GPCAPT employed at AFHQ looking at the retention bonus package, to be aimed at QFI/FCI with 2 years or less ROSO remaining. No idea yet on cash although rumours abound. I also hear we've changed our minds about increasing pilot pay past PG10 next year - shame.

Its a shame the RAAF (goverment) isn't more forward thinking in terms of aircrew retention. Surely they have seen this mounting problem coming ever since airlines began recovering post 9/11. But did anything happen?

The thing I have always found strange with the pay scale is that it keeps going up at a good rate while we have ROSO but the day you finish your ROSO your pay rises stop (unless promoted).

I wonder if it was not originally designed for the Nav ROSO.