All pilots should receive the CAFgram via their CO. $30K, DP-AF to invite those qualified FLTLT and SQNLDR only, ex ROSO, to remain in Feb08-Feb09.

Whilst personally I am on the way out to a future with a LCC, I expect there will be many others like me who are discounted and a little peeved for whatever reason - including working too hard and being promoted! Hence not getting an offer.

And what about all the hardworking B and C Cat drivers who give their all to keep ops going safely? Given the massive airline recruitment happening now, anyone planning to get out for an major airline career would have to consider a year down the seniority list and likely sacrificing more than a year as a skipper - which could be double the bonus amount offered over one year. So this offer is likely to only keep the stayers anyway and peeve off many others. I think DP may have missed the boat on this one.

Interesting. Was it not CAF that publicly (Aust aviation?) said there wasn’t a QFI shortage? Or was he talking more broadly about pilots?

Mixed messages. If there is no pilot shortage and presumably no shortage of experience but just a shortage of QFI, why not train more QFI? I presume there is a ROSO attached – 2 years?? Even if CFS is stretched, could not the course be exported to 2FTS. Or possibly an accepted OS course – CFS UK.

I can understand why it may prove divisive and may in fact be detrimental to retention if all those experienced pilots (non instructors) and QTP’s (presuming QTP’s aren’t being offered the 30K) feel they are not valued to the same extent.

For those who still haven't received:
QFI, Operational Flying Instructor, TP, FCI or CC. SQNLDRS/FLTLT outside pilots course ROSO.
DP will contact eligible pers by 01 Feb, and they have until end of Feb to respond.
CAF is asking us to "Hold the Faith" until a new pay structure is worked out through 2008.

Unfortunately, at best this may be a $5K pay raise (?), certainly not life changing....
As someone mentioned, this would have been a good idea 12 months ago....:ugh:
I'm out.

Thanks for the info Blogsey.
Griffin, one of the looming problems is there is not enough sausage meat in the system to make more QFIs let alone CFS QFIs to train them, or at the very least there is no fat (I mean you have to fill those ground jobs!)
As someone who may have got this offer (I have a few of those initials) it is very disappointing that it it took so long (How long have the airlines been expanding for? CX > 12 Months, Jetstar > 12 months, Qantas 12 Months, Virgin 8 months).
It may (along with some posting guidance) been enough to stay. At least some recognition that our skills are/were valued nearer to market rates.
Instead anyone outside ROSO that was going has probably gone (the same old song isn't it) and good luck to those who
were staying anyway, enjoy, strangely enough I miss it already!!
Positive rate, gear up , autopilot on, coffee please.....

Blogsey,

you said Does it indicate what the story is for those with some small amount of ROSO remaining for other things (eg conversion)?

Victor

Biggles,

I understand what you are saying and agree with you. I can assure you RAAF is not the only service where the sausage meat (to you use your analogy) is distinctly lacking. My main observation was CAF’s (public) message that there was no retention problem.

On another note. I would imagine that most of the line QFI’s would still have pilots course ROSO, thus not being eligible for the bonus.

Lastly, I presume you would need to be in a current flying position, so all those QFI’s who fell on there sword and are doing ‘career broadening’ postings (and perhaps took a ground job at the end of last year) may/won’t be entitled.

griffinblack,

You may well be right but only extending the offer to those in flying positions would be very short sighted (even by RAAF standards). If that is the case those starting work this week in new ground jobs who may have even being looking forward to a bit a respite from the op tempo will be reconsidering their perceived value by the system.

Given a Check Captain qual is only specific to an aircraft type and valid for the tour, it will be interesting to see if DP offers to those who have held the qual in the past but may no longer due to a change of type or a ground job.

My understanding is that, although there is not an overall problem with pilot numbers, there has been a worrying trend in the past 12 months (60+ QFIs leaving since early 06). Additionally, 2FTS is having issues 'throughputting' enough trainees, hence the nine guys over in Canada.

The payment is basically meant to be a hold-short until further initiatives can be cleared - the first of these should see the light of day by mid year including new pay scales, better housing allowances etc.

Might be worth sticking for another year to see what's coming?

Interestingly it doesn't mention. I have a few mates flying 737's with the RAAF. Not sure whether they actually signed any more ROSO, but the CAF's message specifically says "out of pilots course ROSO".

Griffinblack, I know of no QFI's in ground jobs, there aren't enough for that.
Camonred - Once a CC always a CC as far as I know (my FEG). Whether one is current or not is a different issue, but as above, are there that many CC's not in flying roles? I know of none.

Latest info from the people in the know is that it will probably be offered to those with post graduate ROSO (B737, C-17 etc) at the moment, but the 12 month bonus will just extend that ROSO by 12 months effectively.

There are various QFIs about the place in ground jobs in both the FLTLT and SQNLDR ranks.

I imagine there will be a flurry of suitably experienced chaps pushing for their first Check Captain qualification in the next few weeks. Seemingly a 'fast track' (on some types) into this bonus as compared with slogging it out on FIC or Test Pilot School.

VI

which part of 'out of pilots course ROSO' is hard to understand???

It doesn't say anything about having to be in a flying position.

Anyone who thinks you wont work a lot of hours (including time away as work) in a LCC hasn't looked into it too hard.

Oh how the wheel turns………:rolleyes:
Who remembers the $60,000 (before tax!) retention bonus offered around the late 80’s? And exactly how successful was that? 5/8’s of SFA by my recollection.
So here we are again. The dunderheads (or just one in particular!) at the top refusing to believe what is plainly evident to everyone else and making all but a token effort to appear that they are doing something about it, not really giving a f**k because they will be out in a few months anyway!:mad:
Can anyone really believe that FLTLT Bloggs is going to tell QF to hold that 747 slot for 12 months because they’ve taken the bribe? How f**king stupid do these d*ckheads think we are?!?!?:mad:
Well I honestly hope some true initiatives are implemented, because there really needs to be a major shift in rank structure, manning, and employment policies if the RAAF are really serious about retaining the experience they so sorely need.
Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

4 more resignations from ALG yeasterday I hear. Timed nicely with the CAFs email

I'm sure Captian Sand Dune and others would have had a laugh (perhaps a cry) before leaving the building after this one....

Last years pay review roll out explaination forum at a RAAF base near you:

Presenter: 'The problem with you aircrew, is the fact it takes such a large amount of money and time to train you - and you have a capability we are unable to simply buy laterally'
Pilot: 'Wouldn't offering an attractive retention bonus/contract, at the conclusion of an aircrew ROSO be effectively the same as buying that capability?'
Presenter: 'No.'
Pilot: 'But wouldn't you be 'buying' that capability for an additional 2,5 or 10 year term, one that is already current and trained?'
Presenter: 'No.'
Bemused pilot: 'Why not?'
Presenter: 'It's complex and difficult to explain....'

While it is at least something, and some sort of recognition to be offered the 30K bonus with promises of a dramatic pay review, I'm not convinced about the caliber coming to the party...

N_r,

Well there goes my blood pressure:mad::mad::mad:
But I shouldn't really be surprised.:rolleyes:

Said "presenter" was thinking within the narrow confines of a totally outdated manning policy, so in a way he/she was probably correct.:yuk:

The "system" relies on movement through the ranks to function in the way it has been desgned to. Unfortunately the "system" has not kept pace with the times, and unfortunately neither have those whom have the power to make meaningful changes.

Sounding like a broken record, aren't I?:{

More leaving
 

I guess a number of guys have just been hanging on in the hope the bonus may have made staying worthwhile. One more resignation today with a further 3 (that i know of) who now have formal job offers which they'll take, but which the RAAF knows nothing about yet.

Guess on the plus side if the retention problem is still big later this year then it adds weight to the pay review - he said optimistically!

30K pre tax - Tell 'em they're dreaming !!
The only people keen to sign are those wanting to stay in any way.
This will retain no-one. Given the hiring rate of all the majors, delaying employment for 1 year will seriously effect ones potential seniority, and in effect future earnings. Not good enough Shep !!

As for the "potential" pay rise. Hmmmm. Haven't we all heard this before.

I heard this story recently. Not sure if fact or fiction (does it really matter).

Brenden Nelson (newly appointed Defence Minister) is touring the Navy's Submarine base and noticed 2 Collins Class Subs along side. When asked he asked why, the Admiral stated that they didnt have enough LCDR Engineers to man it. They keep leaving for better paid positions. Nelson's reply " So you are telling me that 2 X billion dollar submarines are not deployed because the Navy wont spend an extra 50K to retain key officers ?".

Reply " Ahh yes Sir, but its more complicated than that".........

RAAF Retention
 

I have to agree with Hugh....the 30K' will be taken up by those staying put regardless.

Those sitting on the fence should look at this as a 'slap in the face'. A tiny carrot. Those FLTLT/SQNLDR's out of ROSO are worth more than that I think.

Reserves
 

Anyone in the know what the current direction is with Reserves? I thought I heard some rumbling a little while ago that more effort/$ was to be funneled in this area...or were they talking about grunts?

I am an ex-QFI (recently departed), would love to do some work if I was suitably compensated...

Rentention/Reserve
 

Wine Glass,

Haven't heard anything about more $$$ for reserves, however, I know that in certain areas of the RAAF (in particular 2FTS) have been employing more and more reserves, especially those who have been out of the game for some time.

W.G.

I haven't heard of anything specific for more Reserve pay/conditions on the horizon. However it was re-aligned with PAF pay bands last year which saw a pay increase. Maybe that is what you are thinking of.

As for getting into the reserve work...simply pick up the phone and give the Training Flight Commander a call at the unit. I'm sure they would love to hear from you. At the very least I'm sure they would look into if it is worth their effort getting you recurrent on type and up to speed.

If you don't ask you don't get.

By the way it's not all roses and chocolates. Be sure you are prepared to actually work harder to hold onto those skills and procedures that normally come so naturally. As a part timer they seem to ebb away I'm afraid and this combined with working full time on another aircraft type and SOP's can make it a fair bit of work. That being said, it pays well, it's still fun and importantly you are doing an important job for the guys who are still in.

Good luck

Stop whingeing, the RAAF is what it is. If you dont like it leave. We all think we are so damn important but this shortage will pass. It has all happened before and will happen again.

If there is one tip I can give to anyone who wants to listen it is this. Life is a lot more enjoyable if you look at things with a "glass half full" mentality.

Instead of "I am soooo damn important and I dont get paid enough, so I am going to get angry at the RAAF (which doesn't care because it doesn't have feelings) and leave" try this approach "I get paid six figures to do a job which rocks and because of my high quality training I have excellent employment prospects in the comercial world if and when I choose to move on"

Rant over

Suck it up?
 

Is that you Shep? :}

Control Snatch,
Most of us appreciate what the RAAF has given us, and those coming to the end of ROSO have paid their dues and are now making decisions based on their own best interests. It's just professionally frustrating that the RAAF is prepared to let them all walk out the door without a fight. Millions of dollars worth of experience and training walking for the sake of a few dollars, bit of locational stability, whatever. It would be cheaper than ramping up an overloaded training system and lead to higher experience levels at the coal face. Not worth ranting about, but worth a considered response.

Dont leave the RAAF
 

Guys take it from me the airlines are no longer worth working for. I originally (after 9 years in ronnie) joined Ansett. The conditions back then with AN Australian and Q were great.
The problems now are as follows;

Jetstar. Crap pay crap working conditions. ie always on call, no pay for a pax(positioning) leg. Days off can be spent on a lay over. NO LIFE!

VB. Much the same as above.

Q. No promotion at all due to Jetstar taking existing flying and company expansion is through Jetstar.

EK/CX. You have to live in **** holes.

Pornstar and VB you also fly 1000hrs a year(painfull) the hours(24/7) and days you work in all these companies are appalling.
The RAAF looking back is a much better life guys.
Cheers safe flying.

Oh and the worst part is u have to fly with GA legends.:ugh:

Hey control snatch..........

Remember that? Your post that started this thread if I'm not mistaken.
So now those RAAFies that choose to spill their guts on this forum in response to your invitation are "whingers"?
Are you in the RAAF? Because your first post and your last one are somewhat conflicting on that score.

The Australian
Defence structure to meet strategic needs
Cameron Stewart | January 26, 2008

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-31477,00.html

Snatchless
 

What classic management speak! When all else fails, or when you don't have an answer the 'leave' line seems to be the favoured 'full stop' managers like to put at the end of the conversation. Why stop whinging? Is the RAAF truly incapable of solving its employees gripes? If you are at that rank level then surely you have an obligation to serve the RAAF which includes the welfare of its employees. So the attitude displayed above is a complete cop out - as usual.

Which is what the RAAF told me every day of my career - you ARE important. Suggest a re-read of basic strategic resource management principles. If this has all happened before and will happen again - what does this say about senior management? They are indifferent? Lack foresight? Can't plan?

I don't think a single RAAF guy/girl I have worked with has not had exactly the same gripes to varying degrees - so there's no big frigging secrets to this whole job satisfaction thing. Too many 2 and 3 bars (and governments) have ignored the problems for too long.

So why should someone leave? Why can't they expect the same professionalism, dedication and support from senior management?

I would hazard to guess that if a return on investment study was done on the RAAF it would show that it has failed miserably due to its policy of 'training' its way out of shortages.

Cooee!!!!!

Potentially yes, it is classic management speak. But at the same time I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "I'm not being paid what I'm worth in this position." If that's true it will be very easy to find a position with the same conditions, increased pay and no reason not to move to the other organisation. The fact management aren't increasing your pay to prevent you from moving to these roles is a clear indication they don't agree with you, you may consider it a cop out, but it's their budget and their choice. Turnover is part of any organisation and they are aware of that, they don't have to keep you happy for life.

If a large number of guys walk at the same time to these better jobs they'll talk of and management were hoping to keep at least a percentage of them, then management will get a clear picture that they are wrong in the current market and do need to pay more to keep that percentage happy. However if it's just a trickle of guys moving on, then management have hedged their bets in the right direction and keeping the number of staff they want to keep for the price they want to keep them.

For me, it's not a "pay me what I'm worth" issue. Honestly, after a pay raise in May, $117,000 for a FLTLT ain't that bad right?
But when you look at the financial benefits of 10-20 years down the track, where one can quite conceivably earn $200-250K, the RAAF just can't compete. (edit: and a friend who works where I'm about to go, is only away from home 10-14 days a month)
I agree with control snatch to a certain extent. We all do think we are so important. The last time this happened, did our capability fall to the floor? Were we invaded because we had no aircrew? Did planes fall out of the sky from inexperienced pilots? No. The RAAF survived, and they will again. Anyone who thinks anything else.....probably flys jets and wears spurs to mess dinners.......

Unfortunately, my tax dollar is going straight into the hand of a bunch of spec aircrew SQNLDRS who had no intention of ever leaving, in the form of a retention benefit.

these pretzels are making me thirsty

I'm not sure thats what is being reflected on this thread. Guys are departing the fix due to the general conditions, not necessarily the pay.

Clearly the RAAF does agree otherwise they wouldn't have offered retention bonuses to ATC, aircrew and engineers a few times over the past decade.

Sadly yes. You would be hard pressed to find any flying supervisor who isn't concerned about the erosion of experience. Too many holes in the dyke, too few fingers. How many captain hours do you need to become a QFI again? What is it this month?

Blogsey,
The RAAF had a spike in accident rates in the early '90's - in a number of these, especially the 707 accident off East Sale, had 'an erosion of corporate knowledge' following heavy airline recruiting in the late 80's as a contributing factor.

True, invasion of the hordes, end of world etc is unlikely but it is a very serious problem and often the consequences take some time to be felt.

Money isn't everything, but it helps put up with a lot of the negative aspects and probably will tip the scales for many pilots (including myself) to stay when the LCC packages aren't so attractive...

LCC aren't the only ones recruiting, though. Qantas turn around time from application submitting to 1st day testing - less than 1 month.

Getting off topic, but it was 2 QFI's in the 707 right? Back well before they lowered captain hours required for FIC? Anywho, don't want to sound argumentative.....

Two QFIs who'd done full FICs, yes, one demonstrating sequences to the other.
There was a big drain of experience at the time, and it's my understanding and belief that those poor guys and the rest of the crew were, at least in part, set up by them having to step up to the role of 'squadron expert' at an accellerated rate.
Sad losses ... anyway, Blogsey, what I'm getting at is that the large experience exodus at the time was a factor in that crash, to my mind at least.

I met Shep at a BBQ in '87 when I just started flying for a living. He was wingeing to me that QF had just knocked him back " who do they think they are, don't they know it takes 3 days to plan a pig sortie?" I explained (half pissed) that QF would probably frown on taking that long to plan the ML-SY leg. He didn't see the humour in it.

I concur with Blogsey, the money is/was good for a 10yr FLTLT.
It wasn't the money I left for, it was the offer of a ground job and or a promotion for a life of ground jobs and postings to places my other half would have had to leave her 120K plus job for. I wasn't ready for that....at least not for another 10 years!!!!
Having looked at my first roster for my new company....I wonder if its too late to change my mind!
Having said that about the money however, if I behave in 3-4 yrs I could be earning more than a GPCAPT....and I wasn't ever going to get to that rank.
Lived trough the early 90s too when our planes were falling out of the skies and we killed a lot of people. Even though the ADF has been here before I think you would find the people left behind now have even fewer hours then those left behind in the 90s and again from the 80s. How many FLTLT with more than 1500hrs on the line on type? Different attitudes, more safety etc etc hopefully will help but I don't think it will be any safer for awhile.
I hope I'm very, very wrong!!!!!

"the people left behind now have even fewer hours then those left behind in the 90s and again from the 80s."

This sounds like the key point, Oz; to say things are just repeating themselves isn't enough - there's an insidious and incremental worsening of the situation experience-wise, it seems.