RAAF pilots not leaving / coming back
 

A mate of mine who drives for the RAAF is telling me that an exodus occurring ATM. Pilots leaving in droves to go to airlines and also to lucrative overseas training positions.

Just wondered if anyone could shed any light on the issue. I would have thought there would be nothing to complain about if you were flying some of the best aircraft in the country. I am guessing these guys are paid pretty well....my "mate" just cracked six figs and he is not a high rank, sounds pretty good to me.

Just confused, sounds like a pretty good wicket to me!!!!

My guess is that money is not always the defining factor.
Other considerations could include:

* Flying hours available
* Warfare Postings & Life expectancy
* Time away from family
* Transfers
* Promotions (or lack thereof)

Not to mention a ground posting for 2 or so yrs!!!

Flying for the RAAF is a young man's job. Put simply, if they had wanted you to have a family, they would have issued you one.

Currently running at 12yrs return of service obligation :)

"My mate "

Sounds like a sandwhich spread.

ADF pay rates are available on line to everyone who wants to look - unlike industry!

Most pilots are FLTLT / CAPTAIN rank or the ADF equivalent.

A$100K plus up to 28% gross pension contrib by employer (after 20 odd years) plus housing and medical dental is standard. No biggy. ATC get up to about $90.

Life is short. As Mel Brookes said sort of - Jump around flap your arms and makes lots of noise as you are a long time dead!

Mil flying is an unequalled oppoprtunity in life. No one does it forever!! As someone who swopped an MG midget for a Jet provost straight from the box, and two concurrent girlfriends, - believe me youth is there to be enjoyed. Dont get sucked into pension plans and Net $$ s straight off the bat - live a little. For that the Mil is a very good vehicle. Join, learn , mature, fly (up to mach two with no fines by the way) and later when youve "grown up" or succumbed to lives essentials - wife, 2 kids mortgage, dog, stability etc etc - if desirable - leave. If you havrent done 250+ knots at 250 and below at 19 dont knock it.!!Beats a Porsche outright anyday!:ok:

BD

While 10 Year FLTLT pay is 6 figures it still does not really compare to only working 6 months of the year and earning at least another 20% flying for one of the major airlines (QANTAS or Cathay).

Maybe it would be ok if it was not for all the Bull S&%T associated with being in the military these days.

OHS, Equity, Airside awareness training, Pistol, Pistol again with body armour when deploying, annual dental and medical, annual dental and medical again when deploying and that is only to name a few!

It just never ends. All I want to do is turn up and fly. Oh well 6 years to go now.

Amen brother
 

"No morale problems & no retention problems..." Paraphrased from the current Chief. :ok:

In the immortal words of Darryl Kerrigan: Tell 'im he's dreamin'!".

Soon there will be a retention bonus offered: the deadwood will stay and take the cash, those that were going to leave will leave anyway, and be asked to complete an "ADF exit survey" - in which, without any hint of irony, I listed completing surveys as one of the contributing factors for my leaving. Oh well, the circle of life continues. As Slezy9 alluded to, the bu!!sh!t has truly piled high in today's RAAF. My personal tolerance threshold was crossed the day we were forced to endure "suicide prevention" training. My god, if I ever felt like committing suicide it was in the middle of that presentation.

BurglarsDog nailed it: Mil flying is for the young. Pay is nice, but not moving 5 times in ten years is better. Besides which, after 785kts at 200'/M2.35 at 50,000', what more is there to do:}:D

BD - 250 at 250 is Ok, but 120 at 3 ft having to climb over fences and going between trees sideways because the width is less than the rotor span really gets the adrenalin going! :ok:

Geez, either way - it beats working for a living.

Bloody hell B what were you doing up there....letting the Nav fly again :E

"Suicide prevention training"?

Are you serious?:rolleyes:

Most surveys that came my way had a date with the shredder. My all time favourite was spending 2-3 hours on the computer in about 2001 filling out that Pilot Retention survey. Whatever became of that? (apart from someone getting their promotion for devising another survey).

superfrozo
 

"No morale problems & no retention problems..." Paraphrased from the current Chief.

From what the lads tell me, the new chief hasnt made any new friends since being put in the hot seat...

Interesting times ahead for the RAAF

testing testing

Wow that's more impressive than what I was going to say about 630 knots at 25-50' (don't touch the ground) military work!

785kts/2.35M? Any other hints on the equipment!

Yes, there was an exodus from the military way back in the late '80s and things haven't changed much to this day. It's a healthy turnover. It leaves room for the young blokes and keeps the military training machine in fine fettle.

There is a truckload of money to be made outside of the military.

Just don't leave your move too late.

if you're going to talk money
 

noone seems to mention that the average GA pilot will spend 3-4 years earning <40K, while the mil pilot is on a lot more than that.

That's a big difference early on that noone seems to think about. :confused:

Off the theme, but methinks a necessary reminder in the face of gales of avtur. Though the unkindly called "knuckleheads" definitely fly the hottest gear, there will always be that element in aviation who identify with Neville Shute's 'An Old Captivity' and find the purest pleasure conning the landscape low and slow in their old J3s or their modern recreational aeroplanes.

Could only be one beast!:ok:

Magoo

Before anyone else cries about the pay in GA etc, please remember that the boys and girls in the military (not just the aviators either) have to do alot of other dangerous and boring tasks. Some of them get shot at too, whilst defending Australia, and some of them die in accidents whilst in uniform.

Yes, I agree that all aircrew should be paid more, and that includes GA and the Regional Airlines. But military people don't necessarily get it any easier.

"No morale problems". Uh huh. Just what I'd expect a Chief to say when he's angling for the top defence job. I mean, he's hardly going to say "Well, actually during my tenure, morale has consistently dropped and right now it's pretty crap and people want to leave", is he?

I'm also still in touch with colleagues "on the inside" and nothing has changed (in fact if anything it has probably gotten worse which I didn't think was possible) since I left 6 years ago. The only way you can survive in the RAAF is to enjoy the young & naive years while you're having fun and don't know any better, then exit before you wake up and lose your sanity!

Takes 2-3 hours nowadays just to log onto DRN....:ugh:

Try being at a SQN with 12 computers between 90 people. You are lucky if you can get on one before lunch time.

slezy9
 

Yeah and then your gettin ya arse kicked cause you didnt read that email that said you have dress inspection or a parade in the morning!!!:ugh:

Dress inspection? Parade? What Air Force are you working for? I haven't done a parade in years. You must be pretty blunt if you're doing parades.

Clearly not the same Air force!

Richmond doesnt do parades around the flightline anymore?

My bad :\

Arrh! of course Magoo, you are so very right. I was qualified on that type as well for a short time, so I have no excuse except plead poor recall in my old age (was it 256 that was a magic number as well?).

785kts/2.3M.....
 

785kts/2.3M.......that's almost as fast as the AMRAAM (just before it shacks a Pig for example.)

lmh

PAF -
Sounds like a good ground job for someone to organise more DSN terminals or run a survey as to how this is a better system!!

Oh, the F101 of course! ;)

Still sounds pretty good to me!

Sounds like you all need a hot cup of "wake up and realise how good you have it"

A hot steaming cup that is....

Extract the maximum training, experience and enjoyment out of military aviation then POQ. Then you can make some serious money out of the airline business before you become too old.

Yep, some of my mates made a full career out of the military and now subsist on a military pension. All they have to wake up to each day is a hot cup of tea (that is, when they can afford a new teabag).

The very best advice I can give you is don't stay too long in the military.

Right, now we are back on topic (leaving parades,DRN and steaming hot cups of something behind us)....

Any idea how many pilots are going and to which airlines?
Which SQNs are losing guys?

I'm currently somewhere hot and dusty and a bit out of the loop...

Cheers

COR

RAAF Pilots leaving
 

you bunch of whingers!! It ain't that bad! ;) I am really happy! Flying heaps, pay is good, plenty of good times with my mates! yeah sure I have no idea where I am going to be next week let along next year but hey adds to the adventure. Ok, it really does depend on your circumstances. I have been in for 18 years and still enjoying my time however I can totally understand those that want to move on. I am single and have no real goals except finding another great place to go skiing!! Those who have family and want stability, totally understand wanting to leave. If its the bull**** you are leaving for to go to the airlines....you are in for a shock as all large organisations have that. This is the military and not a flying club so you have to put up with meaningless rubbish...part of the job in my opinion. Having said all that, I think you find myself leaving in a few years as it will simply time to move onto to something else.

RAAF pilots leaving
 

COR

to answer you question

all sqns....

very soon to be all airlines (as they are all recruiting, or will be very soon)

Kind of says it all doesn't it, Nothing_but_blue?

Passed your C Exams yet?

Running out of options real soon. Watch your six, laddie!

RAAF Pilots leaving
 

I actually have to agree with you FR. I really don't want to be one of those guys become bitter and that just turn up for work and complain. Staying in an organisaion (and job) for too long can cause that to the most positive of chaps! I think I will tick the twenty year box and by that stage it will be well and truely time to move on. I have completed ATPL exams, plenty of hours, so no probs leaving when ready.

So the wheel turns again. Those that want to go will go, and those who want to stay will obviously stay.

Unfortunately the RAAF persists with it’s assumption that every pilot who joins wants to climb the greasy pole of promotion and be chief one day. The RAAF still just doesn’t get the point that there are some who are quite happy to forgo promotion (and all the cr*p that goes with it!) and stay flying.

I left in the mid 90’s when promotion loomed and got a job doing what I was trained to do and getting paid more than anyone in the military had even heard of. I continued to gain experience in the field and was snapped up by the RAAF several years later because now I was (wait for it) experienced! I have more hours in my logbook than most CO’s have. Actually that includes Shep, but that’s nothing to boast about! Somewhat ironic that the experience that made me attractive to the RAAF (well my looks wouldn’t cut it!) was gained outside the RAAF. Could’ve just left me flying but, no - must keep feeding the great promotion pyramid and man the plethora of desk jobs that somehow seem to be more important to keep manned than flying jobs.

Those of my era who stayed are well up the promotion ladder, but ceased full time flying duties some time ago. Meantime muggins here has more real flying than he can shake a stick, at with a nice fat bank account and no mortgage! I get to use my experience where it's best utilised - in an aircraft, not behind a desk!

For those that want to stay in and gain promotion – good on you! I hope you get to where you want to go. To those that want to get out – go for it! However don’t under value your hard earnt skills. Don’t let anyone else try and tell you differently – especially some of those here!

When will they offer us a bonus? Plenty of surveys coming out of DP, but no doubt nothing will happen until late next year after the mass exodus!

Am aware that the boys in Canberra are looking at the looming pilot shortages carefully, especially with new RAAF platforms rolling - MMRT, C17, UAV, JSF, F18F, P3 replacement programs, New Helos around the corner. Would not be surprised if some incentives come forward over the next year for pilots out of ROSO. My contacts around the industry tell me they already seeing the shortages affecting their ops.

Yes, plenty of the same surveys asking the same questions about the same problems. Must be a standard survey template in the DP computer system by now! :rolleyes:

As for the bonus.............another unimaginative solution by unimaginative people who refuse to look even a small distance outside the box.

In the vast majority of cases RAAF pilots do not leave because of the money. By the time their ROSO (a bit like the bonding system in the airline world) is up they are senior FLTLT's and therefore on pretty good money. They will take a significant pay drop for the first few years if they go to QF as an F/O.

The vast majority of RAAF pilots leave the service to keep flying. They would dearly like to stay in and fly the flash aircraft doing interesting and exciting things, however the system has probably earmarked them for promotion. In the RAAF, promotion above FLTLT = significantly reduced opportunities to stay flying.

The bonuses do not do a good job of swaying those whom are undecided. Invariably those whom are going to stay anyway will take them. The net result is a cost to Defence for very little gain.

The RAAF needs to think outside it's very constrained little box and squarely face the real reasons their pilot's leave.

There will always be a small proportion of pilots who will go to the airlines. Let them go, and thank them for their time rather then making them feel like rats deserting a ship.

I will guarantee if every squadron pilot was asked what they wanted to do ( i.e. given a say in their career), initially a significant proportion would elect to stay in their current flying jobs for the medium to long term. This will instantly preserve unit corporate experience. Very soon after that the demand for new pilots will reduce, significantly reducing the strain on an already under funded and understaffed training organisation.

Around the early 90's the demand for pilots reduced, but the RAAF training system was still producing a relatively high output. This was chiefly because the training system responded to the large numbers of pilots who left in the mid/late 80's, but was significantly out of phase. This resulted in lots of pilots in the RAAF whom weren't going anywhere. The answer was to establish lots of ground positions for pilots. To the best of my knowledge these positions are still established. The RAAF needs to have a good hard look at what ground positions are so important that they actually require trained, experienced pilots to man them. Do we really need experienced pilots as aides to senior officers and Governors, for example? :confused:

With our already high operational tempo and new types coming on line, why not pull some of these guys and gals out from behind desks and put their experience to good use?

The RAAF still persists with the outdated notion that every pilot who joins wants to be Chief one day. Granted, there are those that aspire to such heights, but I will wager that many do not. Those that do not want promotion should not have it foisted upon them. Let those that want the stripes and the associated BS have it.

As time goes on a proportion of those pilots who opted to stay in rank and stay flying may change their minds and elect to go for promotion. Should that be the case, these people should then be considered for promotion.

In conclusion, give more control of pilot's careers back to the individual pilots. Review all ground positions established for pilots with a view of releasing those pilots back into the flying work force. Watch the training work load and cost decrease. And no bonuses will be required!

Capt SD,
Agree with all, however:

They will take a significant pay drop for the first few years if they go to QF as an F/O.

Have you seen the pay for Cathay DESO HK and DEFO (pax) Aust? Certainly not a pay cut.....