Radio phraseology
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Not in Bahrain sorry Halas in the UAE. Border Bahrain and talk to them a lot but can't place the guy you're talking about.
The only thing I'll say in defence of Bahrain, is from what I've seen and heard its a nasty bit of airspace and they do border Saudi Arabia, who give Bahrain no help and a lot of grief with there exceedingly restrictive requirements that Bahrain and by osmosis the UAE have to then place on the aircraft. If you are flying to Europe from Dubai etc via the Bahrain/Saudi route our hands are tied as to what we can offer as part of Saudi airspace is non radar so we have to set up procedural standards in a radar environment.
Hope that helps maybe explain the pressures that this guy may have been under. cheers.
The only thing I'll say in defence of Bahrain, is from what I've seen and heard its a nasty bit of airspace and they do border Saudi Arabia, who give Bahrain no help and a lot of grief with there exceedingly restrictive requirements that Bahrain and by osmosis the UAE have to then place on the aircraft. If you are flying to Europe from Dubai etc via the Bahrain/Saudi route our hands are tied as to what we can offer as part of Saudi airspace is non radar so we have to set up procedural standards in a radar environment.
Hope that helps maybe explain the pressures that this guy may have been under. cheers.
Sperm Bank
Their is very little ambiguity in the examples on page one, you either lack the mental ability or are just too lazy to read it.
If you find it so difficult too understand I have to ask, have you ever written to AsA and queried the particular call, much easier to read absolutely thing back I guess.
Their is absolutely no excuse for guys reading back advise to expect a certain clearance/requirement or anything else. As I said just purely lazy, I take it you disagree?? If so where is your line??
Have too wonder who the sky gods are??
If you find it so difficult too understand I have to ask, have you ever written to AsA and queried the particular call, much easier to read absolutely thing back I guess.
Their is absolutely no excuse for guys reading back advise to expect a certain clearance/requirement or anything else. As I said just purely lazy, I take it you disagree?? If so where is your line??
Renurp and some of you others have alot to learn I think
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I think the skygods are the people who think they know it all but in fact never do. The people who come in here to prophesise about procedural correctness as seen through THEIR eyes. The people whose utterly anal retentive attitude to everything aviation is apalling. The people who are CRM disasters of the finest calibre as they are so self absorbed with their own importance. The people who would be much better off worrying about their own standard rather than that of every one else.
Renurp your attitude is exactly the same as some of the Australian disasters who came over to Europe to re-invent the wheel. They were subsequently put back in their little box and quietly faded away. They realised there was another and very often better way to do things.
Sure some guys read back too much info...BIG DEAL!!!!! Better too much than not enough, only to have ATC come back and ask again to read it back.
The communications section has a plethora of anomalies regarding BOLD, () and {} info. If it was all laid down clearly in one section that would be great. But no this is Oz, where we think if we make it a little more difficult, that in some way makes it more professional. What a joke!!!!!!!!!!
The info we are supposed to use on a daily basis is scattered out like a mad mans excrement. If I am lazy because I dont read my Jepps on a daily basis, call me guilty or dumb, I dont really care. My flying encompasses alot more than a correct radio call mate.
(He couldn't fly for ****e but god he was good on the radio).. What a nice epitaph!!!!
Renurp your attitude is exactly the same as some of the Australian disasters who came over to Europe to re-invent the wheel. They were subsequently put back in their little box and quietly faded away. They realised there was another and very often better way to do things.
Sure some guys read back too much info...BIG DEAL!!!!! Better too much than not enough, only to have ATC come back and ask again to read it back.
The communications section has a plethora of anomalies regarding BOLD, () and {} info. If it was all laid down clearly in one section that would be great. But no this is Oz, where we think if we make it a little more difficult, that in some way makes it more professional. What a joke!!!!!!!!!!
The info we are supposed to use on a daily basis is scattered out like a mad mans excrement. If I am lazy because I dont read my Jepps on a daily basis, call me guilty or dumb, I dont really care. My flying encompasses alot more than a correct radio call mate.
(He couldn't fly for ****e but god he was good on the radio).. What a nice epitaph!!!!
I think the skygods are the people who think they know it all but in fact never do. The people who come in here to prophesise about procedural correctness as seen through THEIR eyes. The people whose utterly anal retentive attitude to everything aviation is apalling. The people who are CRM disasters of the finest calibre as they are so self absorbed with their own importance. The people who would be much better off worrying about their own standard rather than that of every one else.
Renurp and some of you others have alot to learn I think
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To those of you who are considering a career in aviation, but have concerns about the limited job security it provides or the crap pay (such as GA), or the numerous shonk stories on this forum, relax........these are the least of your concerns. It is surely the number of TWATS in this industry that should scare you off !!
Exibit A.......These bunch of ******s correcting peoples radio calls.
I would hate to be your children.
Exibit A.......These bunch of ******s correcting peoples radio calls.
I would hate to be your children.
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Sperm Bank - one of the best posts I have seen on this site.
My thoughts exactly. Why do some people have to spoil a fun job with such trivia as an insistence on 'word perfect' to the possible detriment of the 'big picture'?
My thoughts exactly. Why do some people have to spoil a fun job with such trivia as an insistence on 'word perfect' to the possible detriment of the 'big picture'?
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Sperm bank, you took the words out of my mouth!!
RENURPP, I think you've spent too much time polishing the rod, Get a hobby!! You sound too much like a wannabe sky god its a joke. They had guys with your attitude in mind when the invented the wooden spoon
The best pilots are those who critisize the things that they themselves do and try to fix their own mistakes. They don't sit back and think that they are perfect in every respect and cry foul play at things that other pilots do
RENURPP, I think you've spent too much time polishing the rod, Get a hobby!! You sound too much like a wannabe sky god its a joke. They had guys with your attitude in mind when the invented the wooden spoon
The best pilots are those who critisize the things that they themselves do and try to fix their own mistakes. They don't sit back and think that they are perfect in every respect and cry foul play at things that other pilots do
Last edited by THWAKER; 27th Jul 2003 at 15:16.
Bottums Up
Triadic,
Granted some of the instructors might not know and/or teach the correct phraseology, but professional pilots shouldn’t need to be taught it. One assumes they have a copy of the AIP!
I wonder if the reference Jepp para 3.3 @ Terminal AU-11, referred to below, covers the readback of “Cancel STAR”?
With regard to speed restrictions, do you think item G (AIP refs below) requires the readback of “cancel STAR speed restrictions”?
Sperm Bank,
Re your post at 0556z 26/07, and the reference to Jepp AU922…. Wrong! The preamble to Jepp Phraseology Jepp AU-916, para 7.1.2 states in part, “They are not intended to be exhaustive….”
However, Jepp Terminal AU-11, para 3.3, states in toto;
I find it interesting that the most vociferous arguments on this thread come from those who don’t know what is required with respect to readbacks. As RENURPP suggests, I think a nerve has been hit.
I believe that the phraseology section of the AIP is a dog’s breakfast in terms of examples. In the good-ole-days it was simply explained but not any more.
However, at Jepp ATC AU-912, Section 6.3 Readback Requirements (my bolding)
As an example, when instructed to taxi to holding point ECHO via, Alpha, Bravo & Charlie, the readback should be; “holding point ECHO, callsign, not a verbatim readback of the instruction.
The Australian published AIP GEN requirement, below, is clearer. See bold phrase below.
And at AIP GEN 4.4 (my bolding below)
I’m with RENURPP. I can’t see why it is so hard to read the requirements and think about what is required and then comply, rather than read back everything in the hope that compliance has been achieved.
Granted some of the instructors might not know and/or teach the correct phraseology, but professional pilots shouldn’t need to be taught it. One assumes they have a copy of the AIP!
I wonder if the reference Jepp para 3.3 @ Terminal AU-11, referred to below, covers the readback of “Cancel STAR”?
With regard to speed restrictions, do you think item G (AIP refs below) requires the readback of “cancel STAR speed restrictions”?
Sperm Bank,
Re your post at 0556z 26/07, and the reference to Jepp AU922…. Wrong! The preamble to Jepp Phraseology Jepp AU-916, para 7.1.2 states in part, “They are not intended to be exhaustive….”
However, Jepp Terminal AU-11, para 3.3, states in toto;
“A pilot must read back to ATC the STAR identifier and any transition runway and termination procedure specified in the STAR clearance.”
I believe that the phraseology section of the AIP is a dog’s breakfast in terms of examples. In the good-ole-days it was simply explained but not any more.
However, at Jepp ATC AU-912, Section 6.3 Readback Requirements (my bolding)
6.3.1 For other than a route clearance, as indicated in paragraph 6.3.2a. below, the key elements of clearances, instructions or information must be read back ensuring sufficient detail is included to clearly indicate compliance.
6.3.2 The following clearances, instructions and information will be read back:
a. An ATC route clearance in its entirety, and any amendments;
b. En route holding instructions;
c. Any holding point specified in a taxi clearance;
d. Any instructions to hold short of, enter, land on, take-off on, or backtrack on any runway;
e. Any LAHSO instructions;
f. Assigned runway, altimeter settings directed to specific aircraft, SSR codes, radio and radio navigation aid frequency instructions;
NOTE: An “expectation” of the runway to be used is not to be read back.
g. Level instructions, direction of turn, heading and speed instructions;
NOTE: Reported level figures of an aircraft should be preceded by the words “FLIGHT LEVEL” when related to standard pressure, and may be followed by the word “FEET” when related to QNH.
6.3.2 The following clearances, instructions and information will be read back:
a. An ATC route clearance in its entirety, and any amendments;
b. En route holding instructions;
c. Any holding point specified in a taxi clearance;
d. Any instructions to hold short of, enter, land on, take-off on, or backtrack on any runway;
e. Any LAHSO instructions;
f. Assigned runway, altimeter settings directed to specific aircraft, SSR codes, radio and radio navigation aid frequency instructions;
NOTE: An “expectation” of the runway to be used is not to be read back.
g. Level instructions, direction of turn, heading and speed instructions;
NOTE: Reported level figures of an aircraft should be preceded by the words “FLIGHT LEVEL” when related to standard pressure, and may be followed by the word “FEET” when related to QNH.
The Australian published AIP GEN requirement, below, is clearer. See bold phrase below.
And at AIP GEN 4.4 (my bolding below)
4.4 Read-Back Requirements
4.4.1 Pilots must transmit a correct read-back of ATC clearances, instructions and information which are transmitted by voice. For other than Item a., only key elements of the following clearances, instructions, or information must be read back ensuring sufficient detail is included to indicate compliance:
a. an ATC route clearance in its entirety, and any amendments;
b. en route holding instructions;
c. any holding point specified in a taxi clearance;
d. any clearances or instructions to hold short of, enter, land on, conditional line-up on, take off on, cross, or backtrack on, any runway;
e. assigned runway, altimeter settings directed to specific aircraft, radio and radio navigation aid frequency instructions;
Note: An “expectation” of the runway to be used is not to be read back.
f. SSR codes, data link logon codes;
g. level instructions, direction of turn, heading and speed instructions.
Note: Reported level figures of an aircraft should be preceded by the words “FLIGHT LEVEL” when related to standard pressure and may be followed by the word “FEET” when related to QNH.
4.4.1 Pilots must transmit a correct read-back of ATC clearances, instructions and information which are transmitted by voice. For other than Item a., only key elements of the following clearances, instructions, or information must be read back ensuring sufficient detail is included to indicate compliance:
a. an ATC route clearance in its entirety, and any amendments;
b. en route holding instructions;
c. any holding point specified in a taxi clearance;
d. any clearances or instructions to hold short of, enter, land on, conditional line-up on, take off on, cross, or backtrack on, any runway;
e. assigned runway, altimeter settings directed to specific aircraft, radio and radio navigation aid frequency instructions;
Note: An “expectation” of the runway to be used is not to be read back.
f. SSR codes, data link logon codes;
g. level instructions, direction of turn, heading and speed instructions.
Note: Reported level figures of an aircraft should be preceded by the words “FLIGHT LEVEL” when related to standard pressure and may be followed by the word “FEET” when related to QNH.
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Sperm Bank;
Sure some guys read back too much info...BIG DEAL!!!!! Better too much than not enough, only to have ATC come back and ask again to read it back.
It is a big deal to have all pilots reading back information not required to be readback. As a pilot it may not be, cos as far as you're concerned you're the only pilot in the sky and the frequency is for you and you alone. But as an ATC with 14 other guys trying to readback their clearances or request descent, or declare an emergency, the R/T hog is a right royal pain in the behind.
I agree that too much is usually better than too little when it comes to readbacks, but why does it need to be either. If you consider yourself a proffessional then do things the right way, and if unsure of what is required seek out the answers don't just sit on your hands and say it is all too hard.
Alot of you guys will say we are being pedantic, but as traffic increases (in this part of the world anyway) frequencys become more congested and this becomes more of an important issue.
Sure some guys read back too much info...BIG DEAL!!!!! Better too much than not enough, only to have ATC come back and ask again to read it back.
It is a big deal to have all pilots reading back information not required to be readback. As a pilot it may not be, cos as far as you're concerned you're the only pilot in the sky and the frequency is for you and you alone. But as an ATC with 14 other guys trying to readback their clearances or request descent, or declare an emergency, the R/T hog is a right royal pain in the behind.
I agree that too much is usually better than too little when it comes to readbacks, but why does it need to be either. If you consider yourself a proffessional then do things the right way, and if unsure of what is required seek out the answers don't just sit on your hands and say it is all too hard.
Alot of you guys will say we are being pedantic, but as traffic increases (in this part of the world anyway) frequencys become more congested and this becomes more of an important issue.
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Claret your ability to copy material is very impressive (albiet not quite complete). Why didn't you include the entire paagraph to show exactly why confusion reigns supreme in this country.
PHRASEOLOGIES 7.1.
Phraseologies show the text of the message components without callsigns.They are not intended to be exhaustive, and when circumstances differ, pilots, ATS and Air defence personel, and other ground personel will be expected to use appropriate subsidiary phraseologies which should be clear, concise, and designed to avoid any possible confusion.
Now what a brilliant paragraph! You are obviously one of the Australians who thinks they know it all mate. WRONG in your coment is a crass example of your arrogance! So some is bold, some is not, some in brackets others in parentheses??? Get real mate. It's a dogs breakfast and a disgrace. CASA should Just write down what we should say and be done with it. I suggest you have spent far too long in this HOMOGONOUS environment down here and are not in touch. I can rattle off anything from the Boeing manual you want, as it is generally clear and concise, and easy to find, the AIP/Jepp is NOT.
Airnoservice. Your comment about thinking we are the only pilot in the sky is just a little off the mark and perhaps a little silly don't you think? I could level the "if you consider yourself a professional then do things the right way" accusation at most of your colleagues but wouldn't be so pathetic. There is more than one way to do things and eventually the minority of fools in this country who think they know it all will eventually come around, or through natural attrition just dry up and fade away.
There in no such thing as traffic congestion down here, even on a bad day (with the possible exception of Sydney ground between 6am and 7am).
I hope the rest of you enjoy your daily flying persuits despite the mono clonal thinking by a few.
PHRASEOLOGIES 7.1.
Phraseologies show the text of the message components without callsigns.They are not intended to be exhaustive, and when circumstances differ, pilots, ATS and Air defence personel, and other ground personel will be expected to use appropriate subsidiary phraseologies which should be clear, concise, and designed to avoid any possible confusion.
Now what a brilliant paragraph! You are obviously one of the Australians who thinks they know it all mate. WRONG in your coment is a crass example of your arrogance! So some is bold, some is not, some in brackets others in parentheses??? Get real mate. It's a dogs breakfast and a disgrace. CASA should Just write down what we should say and be done with it. I suggest you have spent far too long in this HOMOGONOUS environment down here and are not in touch. I can rattle off anything from the Boeing manual you want, as it is generally clear and concise, and easy to find, the AIP/Jepp is NOT.
Airnoservice. Your comment about thinking we are the only pilot in the sky is just a little off the mark and perhaps a little silly don't you think? I could level the "if you consider yourself a professional then do things the right way" accusation at most of your colleagues but wouldn't be so pathetic. There is more than one way to do things and eventually the minority of fools in this country who think they know it all will eventually come around, or through natural attrition just dry up and fade away.
There in no such thing as traffic congestion down here, even on a bad day (with the possible exception of Sydney ground between 6am and 7am).
I hope the rest of you enjoy your daily flying persuits despite the mono clonal thinking by a few.
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My pet hates......
The (alleged) Professional who says "ABC landed YXXX, Cancel SAR"
and
".........downgrading to VFR..."
(I allways wonder what aspect of their flying performance is being reduced)
The (alleged) Professional who says "ABC landed YXXX, Cancel SAR"
and
".........downgrading to VFR..."
(I allways wonder what aspect of their flying performance is being reduced)
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Sperm Bank, I'm not in Australia so when I say traffic congestion I'm talking Dubai traffic congestion. Sorry if my comment about some pilots thinking they're the only guy in the sky seemed harsh, but when a pilot reads the entire transmission back and wastes a few precious seconds it does make things more tense than need be. My point was only that if controllers and pilots keep their transmissions clear, concise and correct things run much smoother for all concerned and as such more isn't always better. cheers.
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Airnoservice I agree with you and probably should have toned down my response. We should all try to conduct ourselves professionally, however there are circumstances down here which are open to conjecture and mis-interpretation. After years flying around europe and experiencing all sorts of radio procedures (as all the countries are different), I learnt to be very patient and adapt to the environment. Despite what everyone was saying over the radio, it all worked. Not once did I hear the sort of nonsense that is being perpertrated by a small minority down here.
The average pilot and ATCO in Oz from my experience want to do their job correctly. What they don't want or need is a lecture by some self righteous pilots on how to conduct their operations. The respective companies and department heads should take care of that.
Concise radio procedures are born out of clarity in the document in which they are laid down. I defy anyone to give me the correct and exact terminology in Oz. As the above paragraph says "and when circumstances differ, pilots, ATS and Air defence personel, and other ground personel will be expected to use appropriate subsidiary phraseologies which should be clear, concise, and designed to avoid any possible confusion" Subsidiary phraseologies!!!!!!!! What on earth does that mean? I interpret it as use your common sense and when in doubt, read it out!!!
Hope you are enjoying yourself in the desert away from all this "plug up the butt" stuff down here. Cheers mate.
The average pilot and ATCO in Oz from my experience want to do their job correctly. What they don't want or need is a lecture by some self righteous pilots on how to conduct their operations. The respective companies and department heads should take care of that.
Concise radio procedures are born out of clarity in the document in which they are laid down. I defy anyone to give me the correct and exact terminology in Oz. As the above paragraph says "and when circumstances differ, pilots, ATS and Air defence personel, and other ground personel will be expected to use appropriate subsidiary phraseologies which should be clear, concise, and designed to avoid any possible confusion" Subsidiary phraseologies!!!!!!!! What on earth does that mean? I interpret it as use your common sense and when in doubt, read it out!!!
Hope you are enjoying yourself in the desert away from all this "plug up the butt" stuff down here. Cheers mate.
Sperm Breath
I would love to know what makes you the expert on what should and what should not be said on the radio. Similar to your oppinion being the only one of significance here I guess.
A short stinit in Europe has turned you into the ace of the base or did you go there to educate those poor sods as well.
You wouldn't be missed if you went back I would hazard to guess!
AIP is published and indicates correct radio procedures including read back requirements. Your oppinion contradicts it and that can't be argued. To me it means your oppinion is worth ****e.
Some items may lack clarity but they are in the minority. That is where this thread started. I believe the point of this thread was to try and exchange comments regarding what is correct and maybe point it out or discuss why we disagree. The less said over the radio the better as far as I am concerned.
I would suggest firstly you turn your computer off, secondly go and get a life and mix with real people. Your social skills are hard to find. Do you have any??
Have to work today and then off to enjoy the water again so I will no doubt read your useless diatribe when I plug back in in a couple of days.
A short stinit in Europe has turned you into the ace of the base or did you go there to educate those poor sods as well.
You wouldn't be missed if you went back I would hazard to guess!
AIP is published and indicates correct radio procedures including read back requirements. Your oppinion contradicts it and that can't be argued. To me it means your oppinion is worth ****e.
Some items may lack clarity but they are in the minority. That is where this thread started. I believe the point of this thread was to try and exchange comments regarding what is correct and maybe point it out or discuss why we disagree. The less said over the radio the better as far as I am concerned.
I would suggest firstly you turn your computer off, secondly go and get a life and mix with real people. Your social skills are hard to find. Do you have any??
Have to work today and then off to enjoy the water again so I will no doubt read your useless diatribe when I plug back in in a couple of days.
cfi....
Just a little intrigued by your first scenario. Is it the "YXXX" in place of the placename, or is it something else?
As far as I am aware, the correct way of cancelling a Sartime is... "(the flight following unit to whom the tx is directed), postion/location of your a/c and the words CANCEL SARTIME?
What is the big deal? Might this wording might be a throw-back to the days when after landing at a GAAP aerodrome there was a requirement to cancel SARWATCH/SARTIME (call it whatever you like, or just SAR for short), on the ground with the ground frq? Did the flying schools at those GAAP airports actually ensure that their students had any actual exposure to cancelling their Sartime out in the sticks with HF radio before giving them a CPL?
Might it also stem from perhaps the continued use of HF in remote areas, and the associated problems with trying to get hold of flightwatch on the ground with HF. I know I've "Cancelled SAR" in the circuit area of some aerodromes because I know there is no way known that I'll be able to get HF coverage 1000' below me on the ground. I've also cancelled on the ground when I knew I could reach flightwatch easily. As far as I can understand the regs ask you to name position/location, NOT position or location. So if I've just landed, then my position in the circuit is "landed", and my place is "(insert local placename here)", cancel SAR. I refer GEN 3.4 - 27, 5.4.1, textbox 2.
I must admit to never having used a HF radio in an aircraft before my first flying job (but having said that I was already very familiar with HF, but on a marine radio level), so I guess I followed what I was hearing out there, which made sense to this simple minded individual, and seemed concise enough and to which EVERYONE seems to do out here.
Cficare, as long as someone has the nous to actually remember to cancel their sartime, then what is the big deal about just how they do it?
The ball is yours....
As far as I am aware, the correct way of cancelling a Sartime is... "(the flight following unit to whom the tx is directed), postion/location of your a/c and the words CANCEL SARTIME?
What is the big deal? Might this wording might be a throw-back to the days when after landing at a GAAP aerodrome there was a requirement to cancel SARWATCH/SARTIME (call it whatever you like, or just SAR for short), on the ground with the ground frq? Did the flying schools at those GAAP airports actually ensure that their students had any actual exposure to cancelling their Sartime out in the sticks with HF radio before giving them a CPL?
Might it also stem from perhaps the continued use of HF in remote areas, and the associated problems with trying to get hold of flightwatch on the ground with HF. I know I've "Cancelled SAR" in the circuit area of some aerodromes because I know there is no way known that I'll be able to get HF coverage 1000' below me on the ground. I've also cancelled on the ground when I knew I could reach flightwatch easily. As far as I can understand the regs ask you to name position/location, NOT position or location. So if I've just landed, then my position in the circuit is "landed", and my place is "(insert local placename here)", cancel SAR. I refer GEN 3.4 - 27, 5.4.1, textbox 2.
I must admit to never having used a HF radio in an aircraft before my first flying job (but having said that I was already very familiar with HF, but on a marine radio level), so I guess I followed what I was hearing out there, which made sense to this simple minded individual, and seemed concise enough and to which EVERYONE seems to do out here.
Cficare, as long as someone has the nous to actually remember to cancel their sartime, then what is the big deal about just how they do it?
The ball is yours....
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Ops Normal & Hedge
I think what CFI is referring to is the use of the word SAR.
SAR stands for Search And Rescue. The correct phrase would be either Cancell SARWATCH or, Cancel SARTIME.
To say "CANCEL SAR", implies that they were looking for you to effecct a rescue but you are no longer desirous of being rescued!
SAR stands for Search And Rescue. The correct phrase would be either Cancell SARWATCH or, Cancel SARTIME.
To say "CANCEL SAR", implies that they were looking for you to effecct a rescue but you are no longer desirous of being rescued!
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It never ceases to amaze me the number of so called "professional" pilots (I'm talking professional in their behavior not necessarilly occupation) who find it so difficult to carry out basic operational duties.
The constant bleating that appears on pprune about an inability to plot LJRs, get NOTAM, follow read back requirements etc is astounding.
For those who don't see anything wrong with varying phraseology standards to suit their own inabitlities I am just wondering then, how do you determine a standard? Adding a word, a phrase, a sentence or two? How much is too much?
The reason standards are set is to minimise the subjective self assessment of what is good enough.
Many here seem to subscribe to the lowest common denominator theory that lowers the standard of all to that of the aeronautically challenged. Speaking of NAS.......
The constant bleating that appears on pprune about an inability to plot LJRs, get NOTAM, follow read back requirements etc is astounding.
For those who don't see anything wrong with varying phraseology standards to suit their own inabitlities I am just wondering then, how do you determine a standard? Adding a word, a phrase, a sentence or two? How much is too much?
The reason standards are set is to minimise the subjective self assessment of what is good enough.
Many here seem to subscribe to the lowest common denominator theory that lowers the standard of all to that of the aeronautically challenged. Speaking of NAS.......
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SAR, SARWATCH and SARTIME
CFI raises a good point re SAR, SARWATCH and SARTIME.
Why is the distinction important? Because a SARTIME is held by CENSAR and SARWATCH is held by the ATC sector responsible for the airspace. They are different types of service and warrant a different response.
If you call Flightwatch with a "Cancel SAR" call, they will not immediately know what service they are cancelling, on whose behalf they are cancelling it and who needs to know.
Using the correct phraseology, while dismissed by some as ‘anal’ is just a sign of knowing what you are doing, or – dare I say it – professionalism.
The number of instances of pilots and controllers confusing ‘visual’ with ‘VMC’, ‘visual procedure’ with ‘visual approach’ etc. is enough reason for all of us to at least try to get it right.
On the question of readbacks: too much is better than too little, but…. getting it right is even better.
Neddy makes a lot of sense.
Why is the distinction important? Because a SARTIME is held by CENSAR and SARWATCH is held by the ATC sector responsible for the airspace. They are different types of service and warrant a different response.
If you call Flightwatch with a "Cancel SAR" call, they will not immediately know what service they are cancelling, on whose behalf they are cancelling it and who needs to know.
Using the correct phraseology, while dismissed by some as ‘anal’ is just a sign of knowing what you are doing, or – dare I say it – professionalism.
The number of instances of pilots and controllers confusing ‘visual’ with ‘VMC’, ‘visual procedure’ with ‘visual approach’ etc. is enough reason for all of us to at least try to get it right.
On the question of readbacks: too much is better than too little, but…. getting it right is even better.
Neddy makes a lot of sense.