Get a CPL and ??? Do you expect it?
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Sorry for Hijacking HA - feel free to express you opinion on this one though 
RFG - I had an idea it was along those lines. Basically that will end the careers of many pilots including myself. I got some crappy-arty leaflet in the mail about it the other day. As if the industry needs to get any harder for people trying to have a go?
For newbies thinking of shelling out the cash for a pilots licence - forget it - go and do IT or become a doctor.
I'm sure the lawyers are rubbing there hands together for this one.
How do we stop it?... sounds like they have already made their minds up.
RFG - I had an idea it was along those lines. Basically that will end the careers of many pilots including myself. I got some crappy-arty leaflet in the mail about it the other day. As if the industry needs to get any harder for people trying to have a go?
For newbies thinking of shelling out the cash for a pilots licence - forget it - go and do IT or become a doctor.
I'm sure the lawyers are rubbing there hands together for this one.
How do we stop it?... sounds like they have already made their minds up.
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Greatest Threat
At the risk of sounding melodramatic - I see these changes as the greatest threat to the Aviation Industry.
The impact will go all the way up to the airlines.
Qantas, Virgin et al may well ignore what's happening currently in the small end of town but they risk allowing a future where the future pool of pilots will shrink (if the changes are allowed to happen).
Good for those in the short term - for those pilots waiting in the winds over the next decade.
Wind the clock ahead 10-15 years........
Will a future drastic shortage of G.A. Pilots see the likes of Qantas & Virgin forced to set up their own colleges like Singapore, China Southern & JAL in order to have a pool of pilots to recruit from?.
Then again, As New Zealand looks like it's keeping some sanity in G.A. - Maybe QF & Virgin will use the 'shakey Isles' as a source for experianced pilots in the future.
Mr Hat:
I'm not sure if the industry is already screwed on this one but I will attend the FLOT conference in March. I will also be writing to ministers (like p1ssing on a bushfire).
(also mentioned in D & G reporting points)
BTW: The conference is in Sydney and costs $200.
That pretty much counts out a voice from those with the most to lose.
However, pruners concerned with this obviously have computer access.
They can download the proposals, see how it affects them and send as many (free) terse emails to their favourite Transport Minister as they like.
The impact will go all the way up to the airlines.
Qantas, Virgin et al may well ignore what's happening currently in the small end of town but they risk allowing a future where the future pool of pilots will shrink (if the changes are allowed to happen).
Good for those in the short term - for those pilots waiting in the winds over the next decade.
Wind the clock ahead 10-15 years........
Will a future drastic shortage of G.A. Pilots see the likes of Qantas & Virgin forced to set up their own colleges like Singapore, China Southern & JAL in order to have a pool of pilots to recruit from?.
Then again, As New Zealand looks like it's keeping some sanity in G.A. - Maybe QF & Virgin will use the 'shakey Isles' as a source for experianced pilots in the future.
Mr Hat:
I'm not sure if the industry is already screwed on this one but I will attend the FLOT conference in March. I will also be writing to ministers (like p1ssing on a bushfire).
(also mentioned in D & G reporting points)
BTW: The conference is in Sydney and costs $200.
That pretty much counts out a voice from those with the most to lose.
However, pruners concerned with this obviously have computer access.
They can download the proposals, see how it affects them and send as many (free) terse emails to their favourite Transport Minister as they like.
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I seem to remember an email about live, interactive internet based coverage of the FLOT thing.....check with ASA?
The Cert IV requirement will certainly clear the halls of many flying training providers..........
The Cert IV requirement will certainly clear the halls of many flying training providers..........
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Location: North son, I say go North..........
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As for the forum. It may be a user pays system but fark me...
You would have thought that they might have used a bit of common sense, made the forum in Melbourne either during the Airshow or the Monday after... After all most operators from around Oz get to the airshow. But alas that would save us money. On top of that having to pay to attend SAFE SKIES???
As for the pilot issue, must admit I haven't followed it all to closely. It will make it very hard for everyone involved but more importantly it will make it hard for guys/gals to get a start. Not to mention how many sharks out there will rub there hands together to "sell" ICUS as it will be on of the only ways to get quick hours.
Now I didn't want to be harsh in my initial post but you don't get anywhere in life unless you want to work for it. I can sit here and say that as I have worked hard to get where I am. I don't believe in mummy and daddy funding your liscense, its like anything if you don't work for it you never appreciate it.
People like Radar O'reily deserve a break in the industry it is just unfortunate that circumstances at times don't work out but he will get a job as he has the tenacity to want it.
If you get a sniff or a chance anywhere go for it.
You would have thought that they might have used a bit of common sense, made the forum in Melbourne either during the Airshow or the Monday after... After all most operators from around Oz get to the airshow. But alas that would save us money. On top of that having to pay to attend SAFE SKIES???
As for the pilot issue, must admit I haven't followed it all to closely. It will make it very hard for everyone involved but more importantly it will make it hard for guys/gals to get a start. Not to mention how many sharks out there will rub there hands together to "sell" ICUS as it will be on of the only ways to get quick hours.
Now I didn't want to be harsh in my initial post but you don't get anywhere in life unless you want to work for it. I can sit here and say that as I have worked hard to get where I am. I don't believe in mummy and daddy funding your liscense, its like anything if you don't work for it you never appreciate it.
People like Radar O'reily deserve a break in the industry it is just unfortunate that circumstances at times don't work out but he will get a job as he has the tenacity to want it.
If you get a sniff or a chance anywhere go for it.
HA, i read with interest your post and some of the points you make are quite valid. there are some who expect everything to fall into their lap and, unfortunately, there are some people who have everything fall into their lap, while those that do the hard yards hopefully make it somewhere.
I am sure it wasn't due to apathy that no-one applied to these jobs you advertised, maybe there aint many pilots up this way at the moment, or none of them are ppruners.
i was once set on a flying career but one thing turned me off, in fact several things and these are all personal reasons, i guess if you want to do it you will make the sacrifices.
Lack of job security, poor working conditions, poor pay, poor living conditions, lack of return on investment in licenses etc, having to live apart from partner for extended periods of time are all reasons why one may not like to apply for a position with a ga company in a remote location, knowing they may clear $300 a week if they are lucky while trying to repay loans and just get by.
I am glad I left my flying as a pleasure activity and can continue to work in the industry, set goals and earn twice as much as a poor ga pilot, i feel sorry for ga pilots, they deserve better.
if you don't have 350-400TT in Darwin, you find it hard to get anywhere at all, and when you do get there you get treated like ****. and i am not whining because i couldn't get a job up here either, i CHOSE freely to go with another side of the industry.
you shouldn't sprout your hard luck story to everyone cos no-one will apply for your jobs, i know people who have been in darwin for months and are still looking, maybe if more ga operators treated pilots like human beings people wouldn't be turned off.
all good points though and makes for interesting discussion...
cheers
I am sure it wasn't due to apathy that no-one applied to these jobs you advertised, maybe there aint many pilots up this way at the moment, or none of them are ppruners.
i was once set on a flying career but one thing turned me off, in fact several things and these are all personal reasons, i guess if you want to do it you will make the sacrifices.
Lack of job security, poor working conditions, poor pay, poor living conditions, lack of return on investment in licenses etc, having to live apart from partner for extended periods of time are all reasons why one may not like to apply for a position with a ga company in a remote location, knowing they may clear $300 a week if they are lucky while trying to repay loans and just get by.
I am glad I left my flying as a pleasure activity and can continue to work in the industry, set goals and earn twice as much as a poor ga pilot, i feel sorry for ga pilots, they deserve better.
if you don't have 350-400TT in Darwin, you find it hard to get anywhere at all, and when you do get there you get treated like ****. and i am not whining because i couldn't get a job up here either, i CHOSE freely to go with another side of the industry.
you shouldn't sprout your hard luck story to everyone cos no-one will apply for your jobs, i know people who have been in darwin for months and are still looking, maybe if more ga operators treated pilots like human beings people wouldn't be turned off.
all good points though and makes for interesting discussion...
cheers
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No hard luck story here 3.
The jobs I tried to fill were from friends in PVT category. One was a station job, the other a meat bombing job.
Generally it is not hard to find pilots, although finding quality pilots can be a challenge.
I commend your decision to do what you have done and to keep your flying as a hobby.
Until GA is a LEVEL playing field then conditions will never improve. It is very hard to compete against funded airlines and those that speak the word of god. Its not impossible but it is tough. I've been in the game for a while now and my attitude has sure changed towards alot of things - believe it or not I would love to see GA drivers get more for their investment. Problem is that in todays industry it aint gunna happen until the majors are cracked.
I've done my time in the bush and as they say I loved every bit of it. My first boss actually never paid me! No I didn't work for free as I was under the understanding I was getting paid, I learnt my lesson very early.
As you said 3 it is a personal decision on wether or not to make a sacrifice although I do agree that it is a single mans venture...
The jobs I tried to fill were from friends in PVT category. One was a station job, the other a meat bombing job.
Generally it is not hard to find pilots, although finding quality pilots can be a challenge.
I commend your decision to do what you have done and to keep your flying as a hobby.
Until GA is a LEVEL playing field then conditions will never improve. It is very hard to compete against funded airlines and those that speak the word of god. Its not impossible but it is tough. I've been in the game for a while now and my attitude has sure changed towards alot of things - believe it or not I would love to see GA drivers get more for their investment. Problem is that in todays industry it aint gunna happen until the majors are cracked.
I've done my time in the bush and as they say I loved every bit of it. My first boss actually never paid me! No I didn't work for free as I was under the understanding I was getting paid, I learnt my lesson very early.
As you said 3 it is a personal decision on wether or not to make a sacrifice although I do agree that it is a single mans venture...
agreed ha, it all comes down to what you value more in life, and it does make it hard with a partner, especially if you have to live remote, flying is a great thing, and the best thing is you can always enjoy your flying even if you don't do it for a living, which can make it more enjoyable!!!
pity it's so bloody expensive to hire an a/c in darwin tho, need some competition in that area, must be a market for it...
pity it's so bloody expensive to hire an a/c in darwin tho, need some competition in that area, must be a market for it...
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Sorry to direct my previous rant straight at you HA, I think the way this thread has progressed has helped me understand what you were getting at.
I think I speak for all newbies when I say that the collective patience doesn't get any thinner. Most newbies I know, between 150TT and 200TT are feeling nothing short of despair.
I don't doubt for a second that all pilots in front of us have felt the same pain, but it just doesn't take the edge off.
I don't want pity and I dont want a flat handout. I just worked hard to fund and get my credentials, and flying is what it's all about. There are also blokes out there who were "family-funded" and maybe they believe what HA said. The Silver Spoon theory I guess. I don't want to be grouped with them, that's all.
I know blokes have done it longer, but 3 years is a long line-up. I know my ship will come in eventually.
I think I speak for all newbies when I say that the collective patience doesn't get any thinner. Most newbies I know, between 150TT and 200TT are feeling nothing short of despair.
I don't doubt for a second that all pilots in front of us have felt the same pain, but it just doesn't take the edge off.
I don't want pity and I dont want a flat handout. I just worked hard to fund and get my credentials, and flying is what it's all about. There are also blokes out there who were "family-funded" and maybe they believe what HA said. The Silver Spoon theory I guess. I don't want to be grouped with them, that's all.
I know blokes have done it longer, but 3 years is a long line-up. I know my ship will come in eventually.
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it almost looks liek it will be of benifit to maximise the number of hours it takes to finish training, rather then minimise it.
If buying an extra 30 hours of solo time is needed then so be it. Time is money and given enough time the extra hours can be taken care of
If buying an extra 30 hours of solo time is needed then so be it. Time is money and given enough time the extra hours can be taken care of
If buying an extra 30 hours of solo time is needed then so be it. Time is money and given enough time the extra hours can be taken care of
Fact is, when you get to around 5-700 odd hours and you are looking at moving onto twins within your organisation, you may be held back somewhat if you don't have an instrument rating (or at least a current one, or indeed one that is not long out of currency), and perhaps around 100hrs multi to satisfy insurance requirements.
All the night hours (especially multi), you can do at the moment are of paramount importance. I'd also look at training up as much as you can and do your CPL test in a twin. I know I'll get flamed for recommending this by some, but at the moment in my company I'm in just that dilemma. I fall about 15-20 multi (day or night), hours short, but I've been told I'll be able to do ICUS (and NO kids I don't have to pay for it), so that will be a fantastic bonus for me, but I have to wait until such a time as loads/ supervisory pilot availability/ and of couse the a/c availability all coincide together. That, I can certainly do.
The game that we have all gotten into is extrordinarily expensive, but much like the share market it is the "shares that you buy within yourself" that help you make the grade.
Radar, you know, thinking back I had probably 5-10 kg on ya when I went-a-meatbombing, so I reckon you've been fed a bucketload of Bollocks by whoever thought you'd listen to them. We could always name them here.......
No-one can say that to date you haven't given it one hell of a go. How's the "new" life? I'll give yer a buzz over the weekend to catch-up if you're gonna have yer mobile on. Regards,
OpsN.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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C"mon guys n gals, wake up and smell the roses!!! I justsaw a CFI/CP job advertised for around the 50K mark.....who in their right mind is going to do that........I know I know, some one would and plenty would love the job, but lets face facts. 5 out of 100 applicants are going to land the dream job and one day go on and be a 744 driver and earn the dollars they deserve, but what happens to the other 95??????.we end up trying to eek out a living in GA, thats what. now if 50K is the best your going to get after years of hard work and dedication to the industry (god knows why) not to mention the initial hardships and cost of the licence, do ou really think its going to be worth it. can you raise a family and buy a house and be garanteed job security and be a happy little vegimite on 50K????. Knowing that the best job your eventually going to get in GA is going to be a CFI or CP and knowing that the moneys as bad as it is why would ya? and dont kid yerself into thinking that the love of flying is going to conquer all......it wont, when you get to around the 5000hrs mark and are still driving a heap of sh!t and living in rented accomadation, you will wake up and relize what a waste its all been, and how you wish you could live in your own house with your own family and drive to work in your current model car.
I KID YOU NOT. the only reason I stay in aviation is because I ow the business and get good returns in the market niche I have developed for my self, burt I want out eventually and I am fortunate enough to own my own aircraft so I can fly when I like, but believe me boys and gals, if your one of the 95, get a real job and hire or buy a share in your weekend flyer and live like a normal wage (almost all are better than you can expect in GA) earning person with a boat and car and weekends off and BBQs with freinds without having to worry about yopur beer money comming out of the rent, having the ability to send your kids to a private school and all that stuff.
the only people I know of that are happy in GA are owners of the company or single people that havnt woken up to the fact that they might not make the 5.
GA sux and most GA operaters are out there waiting to prey on you young unfortunates who havnt woken up yet or think your in the count for a left hand seat in something big.
>RANT OVER<
I KID YOU NOT. the only reason I stay in aviation is because I ow the business and get good returns in the market niche I have developed for my self, burt I want out eventually and I am fortunate enough to own my own aircraft so I can fly when I like, but believe me boys and gals, if your one of the 95, get a real job and hire or buy a share in your weekend flyer and live like a normal wage (almost all are better than you can expect in GA) earning person with a boat and car and weekends off and BBQs with freinds without having to worry about yopur beer money comming out of the rent, having the ability to send your kids to a private school and all that stuff.
the only people I know of that are happy in GA are owners of the company or single people that havnt woken up to the fact that they might not make the 5.
GA sux and most GA operaters are out there waiting to prey on you young unfortunates who havnt woken up yet or think your in the count for a left hand seat in something big.
>RANT OVER<
Wiz couldn't have said it ANY better.....should put that in the glossy brochure at the flying schools! Everyone always points out the 5% of guys that 'make' it, and EVERYONE thinks thats gunna be them, sad fact is not everyone can be in that 5%. The industry lives on dreams...
As ya said wiz whats the point of striving to be the best you can be in GA on 50K a year when you can work in retail and at the upper end of working at woolies or coles be on more than that....with the inital outlay of a 45c stamp not $40K of training.....everyone laughs about flipping burgers at maccas, bet there are a lot of people working at maccas with more job security and pay than half the guys in GA..pretty sad!
As ya said wiz whats the point of striving to be the best you can be in GA on 50K a year when you can work in retail and at the upper end of working at woolies or coles be on more than that....with the inital outlay of a 45c stamp not $40K of training.....everyone laughs about flipping burgers at maccas, bet there are a lot of people working at maccas with more job security and pay than half the guys in GA..pretty sad!
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Wizard- The truest words I have read on these pages for a long time, well done. The sad part is the fact that every single word of your post is true
Now where is that macas?? Time to make some money!!
Now where is that macas?? Time to make some money!!
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OpsNormal:
I would really rather not have to, but what i am saying is that if it was a requirement, in the legal sence, then i would (like most others) pay for the extra hours. I wouldn't like it but if i had to i would.
Its all good and weel to say 'i better save myself for when i hit 500 hours' but thats not going to do any good if you don't get to 500 hours. There are chananges to be met long before reaching that level of experience and its not possible to sit back and think things will sort themselves out
I would really rather not have to, but what i am saying is that if it was a requirement, in the legal sence, then i would (like most others) pay for the extra hours. I wouldn't like it but if i had to i would.
Its all good and weel to say 'i better save myself for when i hit 500 hours' but thats not going to do any good if you don't get to 500 hours. There are chananges to be met long before reaching that level of experience and its not possible to sit back and think things will sort themselves out
AussieB, I wasn't having a go at ya mate, quite the opposite. If only you knew just how short a time has elapsed since my first real break in the industry......
I didn't say... save your$$ for when you are around 500hrs, what I meant was spend it as wisely as you could at this stage. I'm not into throwing $$ away either, but I fall just short of the insurance requirements on one of the twins my company operates at the moment (multi PIC hours), so I cannot fly it by myself yet.
I've been incredibly lucky, but a lot of it I've had to make for myself, but I've also had/have a boss that believes in me and pushed me a bit when I needed it, too.
Regards,
OpsN.
I didn't say... save your$$ for when you are around 500hrs, what I meant was spend it as wisely as you could at this stage. I'm not into throwing $$ away either, but I fall just short of the insurance requirements on one of the twins my company operates at the moment (multi PIC hours), so I cannot fly it by myself yet.
I've been incredibly lucky, but a lot of it I've had to make for myself, but I've also had/have a boss that believes in me and pushed me a bit when I needed it, too.
Regards,
OpsN.
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Well said wiz times they are a changin'
I can tell you apart from the munny airline staff arent all the happy little vegemites they make out to be either.
Theres plenty of bastardry goin on there too, been there done that you dont know whats behind the masons apron until you wear one.
I was lucky to be in GA neeeeaaaarly 40 years ago and the munny was good enough to eek out a living and it wernt bad fun.
It appears they are using the same planes today and payin the same wages, hate to say this but yes Woolies is a better option IF... you have any doubts about your ability to put up with some of the meanest bastardss God ever blew breath into.
I can tell you apart from the munny airline staff arent all the happy little vegemites they make out to be either.
Theres plenty of bastardry goin on there too, been there done that you dont know whats behind the masons apron until you wear one.
I was lucky to be in GA neeeeaaaarly 40 years ago and the munny was good enough to eek out a living and it wernt bad fun.
It appears they are using the same planes today and payin the same wages, hate to say this but yes Woolies is a better option IF... you have any doubts about your ability to put up with some of the meanest bastardss God ever blew breath into.