No Idea!!
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I remember back in the mid '80's at a major flying training conference it was suggested that around 750 hours should be aquired prior to starting an instructor rating. It was howled down by some of the senior CFIs claiming the supply of instructors would dry up. Cr@p. It was pure commercial interest that they did not want such a change. Sure the number of 200 hr instructors would dry up, but what would then pop out of the system at a later date would be much better as a result. How you can expect someone to teach something they have only just learnt is beyond me (except perhaps with very strict supervision). It does not seem to occur in any other field? Yes the chopper world have a higher hours requirement for instructiong and there are still instructors.
Yes, a three month course at a Uni style school would be good. The standard should improve and they might be able to teach!
Whats more important? The viability of training schools or the standards of the pilots that are trained.
I happen to believe that the number of CPL schools should be significantly reduced - say around 25 nationally. All the others should just do PPLs/NVFRs etc
Yes, a three month course at a Uni style school would be good. The standard should improve and they might be able to teach!
Whats more important? The viability of training schools or the standards of the pilots that are trained.
I happen to believe that the number of CPL schools should be significantly reduced - say around 25 nationally. All the others should just do PPLs/NVFRs etc
Triadic
I agree about the strict supervision and so does CASA that is what the 100 hours direct supervision of Grade 3 Instructors is for. However it is often diluted and of little real use, again it comes down to the quality of the CFI.
As far as not occuring elsewhere, hello? How about leaving school at 17, go to Uni for 3 years to get teaching degree, get job as teacher? Even funnier is do a 3 year Arts degree or anything for that matter and all that is required is a one year dip ed. You then get paid more to teach than a 3 year trained teacher even though you only spent 1 year learning how to teach.
Teaching someone how to do something that you have only just learnt yourself is quite easy really. I don't see a problem. Sure an Instructors responses to student problems will be limited until they have seen more students with various problems or bad habits, but the learning curve is quite steep.
How about parents or siblings teaching relatives to drive?
R-F-G
Helicopters Instructors appear to be only of the Grade 1 & 2 variety and must have 400 hours flight time in helicopters.
I also think raising the minimum may help but there are issues with that as well. Where to gain the hours? Is 500 hours of bush charter for someone who does not set themselves high standards going to give them a solid background for instructing? Sure they may be a good aircraft manipulator. Don't make the mistake of thinking a good pilot makes a good instructor or vice versa. In my experience the best instructors I have seen were only average at manipulating the controls but they knew their stuff and could teach.
How you can expect someone to teach something they have only just learnt is beyond me (except perhaps with very strict supervision). It does not seem to occur in any other field?
As far as not occuring elsewhere, hello? How about leaving school at 17, go to Uni for 3 years to get teaching degree, get job as teacher? Even funnier is do a 3 year Arts degree or anything for that matter and all that is required is a one year dip ed. You then get paid more to teach than a 3 year trained teacher even though you only spent 1 year learning how to teach.
Teaching someone how to do something that you have only just learnt yourself is quite easy really. I don't see a problem. Sure an Instructors responses to student problems will be limited until they have seen more students with various problems or bad habits, but the learning curve is quite steep.
How about parents or siblings teaching relatives to drive?
R-F-G
Helicopters Instructors appear to be only of the Grade 1 & 2 variety and must have 400 hours flight time in helicopters.
I also think raising the minimum may help but there are issues with that as well. Where to gain the hours? Is 500 hours of bush charter for someone who does not set themselves high standards going to give them a solid background for instructing? Sure they may be a good aircraft manipulator. Don't make the mistake of thinking a good pilot makes a good instructor or vice versa. In my experience the best instructors I have seen were only average at manipulating the controls but they knew their stuff and could teach.
God knows what the situation is to the problem but certainly raising the hours for instructers is certainly not a bad idea....BUT you have to make it worth their while to stick around....guys that instruct from 200 hours want out by the time they have 500 because they are sick of living on a terrible casual wage...if you can't keep a guy with 500 hours in the job how do we intend to attract guys with 1000s of hours to instruct when there isn't the rewards in it.
Few other points ...Raise the hours required to become a Grade 3 instructor, no problems but where does your average CPL graduate get that first job, when with the huge increase in insurance costs these days means that there are very few operators with insurance that allows them to give sub 300 hour or even 200 hour guys a go, even several parachute operators have insurance mins of 300/500 ...then of the operators that do give low hour guys a job you have heaps of guys going for the one job, and why would you take someone with low hours when there is always someone around that has more.
It's amazing how much bashing of low hour guys that goes on, but when you look around at all the ATSB reports of most recent accidents all have been flown by pilots with about 1000 odd hours, or even more. Accidents that are flown by 200 hour pilots aren't THAT common.
Just remember guys you were all 200 hour pilots yourself, and most of us out here are more than willing to sit and listen to any words of wisdom that you are willing to impart, i've been lucky enough to have been involved in the industry from an early age and have grown up around it, and the amount of stuff i've learnt from guys with more experience than I could dream of is amazing.
I think we all admit that being low hour or low experience at ANYTHING in life means you do have a LOT to learn, but it's hard to learn if no one is willing to help teach you, because it's always easier to sit back and make fun of them and give them crap from a distance with your mates....if someone does something wrong, tell them what they did wrong, how to do it right, and not to do it again.......if they do it again, sack them.....you soon learn that way! If they are that unwilling to listen and learn from the advise of someone with far more experience than them, by sacking them you just might save their life or even worse their passengers one day......
Few other points ...Raise the hours required to become a Grade 3 instructor, no problems but where does your average CPL graduate get that first job, when with the huge increase in insurance costs these days means that there are very few operators with insurance that allows them to give sub 300 hour or even 200 hour guys a go, even several parachute operators have insurance mins of 300/500 ...then of the operators that do give low hour guys a job you have heaps of guys going for the one job, and why would you take someone with low hours when there is always someone around that has more.
It's amazing how much bashing of low hour guys that goes on, but when you look around at all the ATSB reports of most recent accidents all have been flown by pilots with about 1000 odd hours, or even more. Accidents that are flown by 200 hour pilots aren't THAT common.
Just remember guys you were all 200 hour pilots yourself, and most of us out here are more than willing to sit and listen to any words of wisdom that you are willing to impart, i've been lucky enough to have been involved in the industry from an early age and have grown up around it, and the amount of stuff i've learnt from guys with more experience than I could dream of is amazing.
I think we all admit that being low hour or low experience at ANYTHING in life means you do have a LOT to learn, but it's hard to learn if no one is willing to help teach you, because it's always easier to sit back and make fun of them and give them crap from a distance with your mates....if someone does something wrong, tell them what they did wrong, how to do it right, and not to do it again.......if they do it again, sack them.....you soon learn that way! If they are that unwilling to listen and learn from the advise of someone with far more experience than them, by sacking them you just might save their life or even worse their passengers one day......
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The answer of course to the comments above regarding hours for instructors is to leave the requirement low, maybe a bit more than now and enforce very strict supervision requirements. Trouble is that many present CFIs have not been trained to that level (because they grew up in the existing system, which I think we agree is below par) nor perhaps have the resources to do it. Now what did I say about limiting the number of CPL schools... then maybe it could be done?
Standards and standardization is what we want. With few exceptions it does not exist right now!
Standards and standardization is what we want. With few exceptions it does not exist right now!
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The problem, I suggest, is not the instructors but a lack of common sense. 
Too many people put the brain in neutral whilst on the ground.
I know that answer appears trite but I have seen pilots trained by some very experienced instructors do many of thing things that gottom 2 dollar complained about at the beginning of this thread.
To blame instructors for all of the ills is the same as blaming the education system for all of the problems with children. Somewhere along the line there needs to be some advice from those more experienced or do we just want to sit back and complain about the current generation of newbie pilots and slap ourselves on the back saying it wasn't like that in our day.:o
Rant over, packs up soapbox and creeps away.
Too many people put the brain in neutral whilst on the ground.I know that answer appears trite but I have seen pilots trained by some very experienced instructors do many of thing things that gottom 2 dollar complained about at the beginning of this thread.
To blame instructors for all of the ills is the same as blaming the education system for all of the problems with children. Somewhere along the line there needs to be some advice from those more experienced or do we just want to sit back and complain about the current generation of newbie pilots and slap ourselves on the back saying it wasn't like that in our day.:o
Rant over, packs up soapbox and creeps away.
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I am a +200 hour instructor and I just wanted to make a few points..
1. Students will in most cases get what they pay for. The standard of instructors whether it be a 200 hour of 3000 hour one will dpeend a lot on the company which they work at. The larger, dare I say it "commercial" schools who may charge more have a much more standardised training approach, along with regular checks for the instructors themselves.
2. Instructor Ratings are not just handed to us on a silver platter, nor are our CPL's, ATPL subjects, IREX, MECIR's etc. We do actually have to perform to obtain them, to the same standard (if not higher) then has always been required. Again the larger schools now tend to use outside ATO's to ensure that the standard is there.
3. We are well aware that we don't have the experience of someone with 3000hrs. We have not faced the same amount of weather senarios, mech problems, emergencies, nor have we probably flown to the same amount of airports and so on. It is quite amazing how often you learn something new and learn something from your students. However having said that, we are constantly tested to ensure we can teach what we are required to by CASA and if we couldn't we simply wouldn't have a job. We may still be learning too but we aren't just "saftey pilots" as quoted above. We are quite capable of teaching someone how to fly S&L, Nav and so on.
4. If CASA were to put a mimimum 750 for a G3 rating then I pose the question, where on earth would we all get 750 hours from exactly?? Even now a charter company, up north won't take you with at least 500, a skydiving one requires at least 350 and there aren't enough station jobs now, imagine if there were 1000's more new CPL holders a year. The G3 IR is, I feel a fantastic learning curve for new pilots, that provides them with skills they will carry through their entire career, it also clears away the excess pilots..
Simply, we try to do the best we can everyday. We won't hide the fact that we don't want to be an Instructor as a career. I imagine 90% of the pilots on this board aim to be up the pointy end of a jet by the end of their career. It doesn't mean we don't care about our students though, it doesn't mean we don't care about saftey, it doesn't mean we go to work every day and make no effort and it doesn't mean that we lack common sense. It just means we are using this as a stepping stone to bigger and better things one day down the track.
To the more experienced pilots out there - we know what our experience levels are and we know what we can etach our students. We aren't as useless and stupid as you may like to think we are.
stormy
1. Students will in most cases get what they pay for. The standard of instructors whether it be a 200 hour of 3000 hour one will dpeend a lot on the company which they work at. The larger, dare I say it "commercial" schools who may charge more have a much more standardised training approach, along with regular checks for the instructors themselves.
2. Instructor Ratings are not just handed to us on a silver platter, nor are our CPL's, ATPL subjects, IREX, MECIR's etc. We do actually have to perform to obtain them, to the same standard (if not higher) then has always been required. Again the larger schools now tend to use outside ATO's to ensure that the standard is there.
3. We are well aware that we don't have the experience of someone with 3000hrs. We have not faced the same amount of weather senarios, mech problems, emergencies, nor have we probably flown to the same amount of airports and so on. It is quite amazing how often you learn something new and learn something from your students. However having said that, we are constantly tested to ensure we can teach what we are required to by CASA and if we couldn't we simply wouldn't have a job. We may still be learning too but we aren't just "saftey pilots" as quoted above. We are quite capable of teaching someone how to fly S&L, Nav and so on.
4. If CASA were to put a mimimum 750 for a G3 rating then I pose the question, where on earth would we all get 750 hours from exactly?? Even now a charter company, up north won't take you with at least 500, a skydiving one requires at least 350 and there aren't enough station jobs now, imagine if there were 1000's more new CPL holders a year. The G3 IR is, I feel a fantastic learning curve for new pilots, that provides them with skills they will carry through their entire career, it also clears away the excess pilots..
Simply, we try to do the best we can everyday. We won't hide the fact that we don't want to be an Instructor as a career. I imagine 90% of the pilots on this board aim to be up the pointy end of a jet by the end of their career. It doesn't mean we don't care about our students though, it doesn't mean we don't care about saftey, it doesn't mean we go to work every day and make no effort and it doesn't mean that we lack common sense. It just means we are using this as a stepping stone to bigger and better things one day down the track.
To the more experienced pilots out there - we know what our experience levels are and we know what we can etach our students. We aren't as useless and stupid as you may like to think we are.
stormy
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I happen to believe that the number of CPL schools should be significantly reduced - say around 25 nationally. All the others should
Now what did I say about limiting the number of CPL schools... then maybe it could be done?
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25 Commercial Schools??
What a ****fight to make that one work!.
The only realistic way something to achieve something along those lines would be to close the gate now - and not issue any new AOCs.
Even that would be hard to get past the hip Prof. Fellzy.
By not issuing any new AOCs, there would be a fixed number of operators that may actually be able to plan for the long term future.
A few AOCs would fall by the wayside as part of the natural attrition we see in this industry.
What would be left after a few years would be an industry that could be sustainable.
AOC's and therefore businesses may actually gain some value - just the same as Taxi-cab licences are fixed in number.
If a new comer wanted to start a flying school or charter company, he/she/they could simply purchase an existing AOC - just as one might purchase a Taxi-cab licence or indeed a Newsagent or Milk Run.........
A sustainable industry that has a future and a value will allow for better conditions and banks may then feel more comfortable lending for new equipment against an AOC that has value just as they do for the above industries.
Yes, I know.......not so easy. AOCs currently are not transferable and CASA would still have the final say on prospective owners being 'fit and proper persons'.
What a ****fight to make that one work!.
The only realistic way something to achieve something along those lines would be to close the gate now - and not issue any new AOCs.
Even that would be hard to get past the hip Prof. Fellzy.
By not issuing any new AOCs, there would be a fixed number of operators that may actually be able to plan for the long term future.
A few AOCs would fall by the wayside as part of the natural attrition we see in this industry.
What would be left after a few years would be an industry that could be sustainable.
AOC's and therefore businesses may actually gain some value - just the same as Taxi-cab licences are fixed in number.
If a new comer wanted to start a flying school or charter company, he/she/they could simply purchase an existing AOC - just as one might purchase a Taxi-cab licence or indeed a Newsagent or Milk Run.........
A sustainable industry that has a future and a value will allow for better conditions and banks may then feel more comfortable lending for new equipment against an AOC that has value just as they do for the above industries.
Yes, I know.......not so easy. AOCs currently are not transferable and CASA would still have the final say on prospective owners being 'fit and proper persons'.
Bring back government testing officers specifically for ANY instructor rating.
Takes off rose coloured glasses and promptly gets bitten by reality
The responsibility for testing of candidates has been passed onto the industry. The industry has to take responsibility for the generally $hitty standard that prevails......................
Takes off rose coloured glasses and promptly gets bitten by reality
Last edited by OZBUSDRIVER; 13th Nov 2002 at 09:35.
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No.. you don't stop issuing AOCs etc. CASA just have to have the case and the guts to raise the bar to an appropriate standard without buckling to the commercial pressure of those that may not be able to comply. Many existing CPL schools would not be able to do that without a big ongoing donation from their owner/s. This would not discriminate in my view.
It is not the instructors, but the system that permits such junior instructors to operate without appropriate supervision. The instructors are just the victims and until they have been around for a while, they just don't know what they don't know.
Stormywx.. a good post, you sound switched on and appreciate your limitations. Good luck.
It is not the instructors, but the system that permits such junior instructors to operate without appropriate supervision. The instructors are just the victims and until they have been around for a while, they just don't know what they don't know.
Stormywx.. a good post, you sound switched on and appreciate your limitations. Good luck.
StormyWX an interesting post and I agree with most of your sentiments. However you have left yourself open on a couple of points...
How would you be in a position to judge that? Have you had flight tests under old and new systems? CPL and Instructor tests used to be conducted by " the department" in it's various forms not by in house testing officers who have a vested interest in passing company trained pilots.
"The standard" is certainly not "if not higher" as an example, a night rating used to be compulsory for issue of a CPL, no longer. So the standard of nav aid work has definately decreased even though it is required under the CPL syllabus. I know because I have seen the product.
Constantly? You mean after 12 months as a Grade 3 then every two years. Hmmmmmm
Seriously the test I use as CFI is the quality of student produced. I can see how much effort an instructor is making by the quality of student.
As I said I agree mostly with your sentiments. Give me a keen, enthusiatic 350 hour instructor over a jaded, lard arse, frustrated airline pilot with 4000 hours instructing anyday.
Best wishes with the flying.
We do actually have to perform to obtain them, to the same standard (if not higher) then has always been required.
"The standard" is certainly not "if not higher" as an example, a night rating used to be compulsory for issue of a CPL, no longer. So the standard of nav aid work has definately decreased even though it is required under the CPL syllabus. I know because I have seen the product.
However having said that, we are constantly tested to ensure we can teach what we are required to by CASA and if we couldn't we simply wouldn't have a job.
Seriously the test I use as CFI is the quality of student produced. I can see how much effort an instructor is making by the quality of student.
As I said I agree mostly with your sentiments. Give me a keen, enthusiatic 350 hour instructor over a jaded, lard arse, frustrated airline pilot with 4000 hours instructing anyday.
Best wishes with the flying.
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Well Ive stirred up some very intresting issues(excuse my spelling its the engineer in me)
Its a hard one but when I did my cpl in brissy a pimple faced boy approached me aand said lets go flying,Firstly Im paying the dollars here soo I asked some question,What grade instructor,ans,grade 3.how many hours do you have ans 250,any remote area experience,ans go out too Oakey a bit,
Whell sorry but if one is paying top dollar and by the way ive got a bank loan to pay for my flying,No silver spoon here!(parents did help out when they could)eg head vset.
I want a grade one instructor ,You dont get a grade 3 any cheaper do you.Im sure he was good at his job but hey,If you hire a car for 200 dollars and you have choice of a mini moke or a ss comodoren at the same price what would you pick?
Alot of my mates who are all flying for airlines here and O/s and were all dam good bush pilots all had trades behind them before they started flying eg Plumbers,electricians,carpenters,mechanics.
Its funny when you can get a cpl and more in 1 year and then be responsible for peoples lives where in any other proffesion its 4 too 8 years(doctors)Engineers have to have at least 4 years exp before they can obtain a licence then you sighn a/c out for 100 hours or 1 year,think how many people fly in that airplane over that M/r period
Whell thats it for now ,Instructor rateings are being used as an aid purley too get hours up for that first job,thats where the problem lies,
Its a hard one but when I did my cpl in brissy a pimple faced boy approached me aand said lets go flying,Firstly Im paying the dollars here soo I asked some question,What grade instructor,ans,grade 3.how many hours do you have ans 250,any remote area experience,ans go out too Oakey a bit,
Whell sorry but if one is paying top dollar and by the way ive got a bank loan to pay for my flying,No silver spoon here!(parents did help out when they could)eg head vset.
I want a grade one instructor ,You dont get a grade 3 any cheaper do you.Im sure he was good at his job but hey,If you hire a car for 200 dollars and you have choice of a mini moke or a ss comodoren at the same price what would you pick?
Alot of my mates who are all flying for airlines here and O/s and were all dam good bush pilots all had trades behind them before they started flying eg Plumbers,electricians,carpenters,mechanics.
Its funny when you can get a cpl and more in 1 year and then be responsible for peoples lives where in any other proffesion its 4 too 8 years(doctors)Engineers have to have at least 4 years exp before they can obtain a licence then you sighn a/c out for 100 hours or 1 year,think how many people fly in that airplane over that M/r period
Whell thats it for now ,Instructor rateings are being used as an aid purley too get hours up for that first job,thats where the problem lies,
the toes you step on today coulbd be connected too the arse you may have too kiss tomorow
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How would you be in a position to judge that? Have you had flight tests under old and new systems? CPL and Instructor tests used to be conducted by " the department" in it's various forms not by in house testing officers who have a vested interest in passing company trained pilots.
Except that if they fail themthey can squeeze more money out of them by requiring additional training
Just because you can do in house testing doesn't mean you have to, if you want an honest, unbias opinion go fly with someone who has nothing to gain by passing or failing you. Can help you get past flying school bs
Except that if they fail themthey can squeeze more money out of them by requiring additional training
Just because you can do in house testing doesn't mean you have to, if you want an honest, unbias opinion go fly with someone who has nothing to gain by passing or failing you. Can help you get past flying school bs
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Choosing your instructor
Thanks gottom 2 dollar for starting this thread. Aussiebert you wanted to hear an average student pilot out - I think I represent one with 160hrs and PPL, planning to pursue my CPL. I don't think restricting the instruction business or changing the current minimum hrs requirements will help the fact that there will always be a wide spectrum of students for which as wide a spectrum of instructors are suitable.
On every CPL course you will have a) very eager and motivated guys who know the CPL syllabus & requirements inside out before lesson 1, the guys that glue on to more seasoned pilots for a learning experience and hang out at the hangars, spend their free time reading accident investigation reports, etc. and b) guys who have illusions of getting through it the easy way, cutting corners, just thinking it'll be cool to be a pilot. Guys in a) will be sensible enough to sack an instructor who does not seem to be fulfilling the syllabus and guys in b) will be the ones sacked by the instructor. The student makes the choice of an instructor. I'd prefer to have someone like stormywx sitting on my right hand side thru a CPL course.
-headwind
On every CPL course you will have a) very eager and motivated guys who know the CPL syllabus & requirements inside out before lesson 1, the guys that glue on to more seasoned pilots for a learning experience and hang out at the hangars, spend their free time reading accident investigation reports, etc. and b) guys who have illusions of getting through it the easy way, cutting corners, just thinking it'll be cool to be a pilot. Guys in a) will be sensible enough to sack an instructor who does not seem to be fulfilling the syllabus and guys in b) will be the ones sacked by the instructor. The student makes the choice of an instructor. I'd prefer to have someone like stormywx sitting on my right hand side thru a CPL course.
-headwind
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Just a few comments to all of the above.
1. Do not feel sorry for flying schools, clubs or any of the like. If they cannot stay in business it is because of bad management, particularly in the management accounting side.
2. There is a difference between learning to fly at a club and a professional organisation. Before you spend, ask an independant consultant on the resources you will gain for your money.
3. There is a real concern about the level of professionalism within the industry. Do not think you are 'SMITHY' even he had his fair share of trouble. Do not learn to fly with an organisation with a high turn over rate of instructors, they are really not concerned about you or your career, only your money.
4. Take the time to read books such as 'Redefining airmanship' by Kern, there's more to airmanship than the absolute scribble put at the bottom of the white board that non-informed instructors write because their course instructor said 'this is airmanship'.
5. During your commercial training, ask to remove all seats except the pilot and co-pilot seats, load up real freight,( boxes loaded with tinned food or water containers will do), then do your weight and balance using 40 degree temp and shorten your runways to 900 metres. Believe me, you will better understand what the hell all the fuss is about, when you greet 5 pax at the terminal in your 210 and they have 150 kg of baggage and you have to take them 350nm and have enough fuel to return to base. Some diplomatic people skills will be well worth the effort. But I suppose in the airlines this may not be necessary, so some instuctors will not mention these skills which they do not have.
6. If you ever feel that you are a glorified bus driver, take 2 days off and read the safety digests. You are not you are pilot, there is always something to do. Try starting a trend monitoring process, write down all the engine parameters during the flight at intervals, archive these and review them from time to time. You never no what you might discover.
7. Remember GA is not a playground to have fun in while you are waiting for the airlines. The books are full of unfortunate low flyers, aerobatic and basically show off pilots who are not around to tell you how silly their actions were. I am.
Safety.......Responsibilty.........Safety..........Responsib ility.....Safety
1. Do not feel sorry for flying schools, clubs or any of the like. If they cannot stay in business it is because of bad management, particularly in the management accounting side.
2. There is a difference between learning to fly at a club and a professional organisation. Before you spend, ask an independant consultant on the resources you will gain for your money.
3. There is a real concern about the level of professionalism within the industry. Do not think you are 'SMITHY' even he had his fair share of trouble. Do not learn to fly with an organisation with a high turn over rate of instructors, they are really not concerned about you or your career, only your money.
4. Take the time to read books such as 'Redefining airmanship' by Kern, there's more to airmanship than the absolute scribble put at the bottom of the white board that non-informed instructors write because their course instructor said 'this is airmanship'.
5. During your commercial training, ask to remove all seats except the pilot and co-pilot seats, load up real freight,( boxes loaded with tinned food or water containers will do), then do your weight and balance using 40 degree temp and shorten your runways to 900 metres. Believe me, you will better understand what the hell all the fuss is about, when you greet 5 pax at the terminal in your 210 and they have 150 kg of baggage and you have to take them 350nm and have enough fuel to return to base. Some diplomatic people skills will be well worth the effort. But I suppose in the airlines this may not be necessary, so some instuctors will not mention these skills which they do not have.
6. If you ever feel that you are a glorified bus driver, take 2 days off and read the safety digests. You are not you are pilot, there is always something to do. Try starting a trend monitoring process, write down all the engine parameters during the flight at intervals, archive these and review them from time to time. You never no what you might discover.
7. Remember GA is not a playground to have fun in while you are waiting for the airlines. The books are full of unfortunate low flyers, aerobatic and basically show off pilots who are not around to tell you how silly their actions were. I am.
Safety.......Responsibilty.........Safety..........Responsib ility.....Safety
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Skyway
Very well said indeed.
Every one an excellent point.
The most execellent of all IMHO;
And more than just lip service to;
Very well said indeed.
Every one an excellent point.
The most execellent of all IMHO;
Remember GA is not a playground to have fun in while you are waiting for the airlines. The books are full of unfortunate low flyers, aerobatic and basically show off pilots who are not around to tell you how silly their actions were.
Safety.......Responsibilty.........Safety..........Responsib ility.....Safety
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Skyway
Have to agree with Woomera in that what you say is excellent, especially point 5.
However, would you please expand on point 2 - that there is a difference between learning to fly at a club and a professional organisation.
I think I know what you are getting at but would like a bit more substance to the point.
Have to agree with Woomera in that what you say is excellent, especially point 5.
However, would you please expand on point 2 - that there is a difference between learning to fly at a club and a professional organisation.
I think I know what you are getting at but would like a bit more substance to the point.
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Plovett,
Point two suggests their is a kind of personal tone to it. If you thought this you were right. I am not ashamed to say it.
I learnt to fly with a well known small but very professional school that attracted well known and very senior pilots on the airfield. The school sold out and I thought that after achieving my PPL there it was time to move to a bigger and better establishment. Well what can I say , wrong move.
The small school sold out to professional operators and to this day continue to provide good service.
My move took me through not to say the least, harasment from senior instructors for not meeting their standards, I mean harasment in every sense of the word.Oh yeah standards that varied from one instructor to another. Even the DCFI and CFI disagreed on topics. I also witnessed many a hungover instructor who I had seen drinking excessively the night before, sit in the circuit with a student all morning.
I have compared instructional content within a number of organisations and beleive that for my money I could of received more than some crap scribbled out the night before from Trevor Thom CIR theory book. Actually the theory instructor had not been current for years and new nothing about GPS NPS.
I believe clubs do not spend enough time on research and development and as such produce poor instructors. My wife is a teacher and the content of some of her books on learning would leave the old Principle and methods scribble that gets written up for dead.
Clubs are great for when you have a licence and want to meet people and go for a fly. I believe that just because a club is a club standards should not lower and testing should be done out of house.
Point two suggests their is a kind of personal tone to it. If you thought this you were right. I am not ashamed to say it.
I learnt to fly with a well known small but very professional school that attracted well known and very senior pilots on the airfield. The school sold out and I thought that after achieving my PPL there it was time to move to a bigger and better establishment. Well what can I say , wrong move.
The small school sold out to professional operators and to this day continue to provide good service.
My move took me through not to say the least, harasment from senior instructors for not meeting their standards, I mean harasment in every sense of the word.Oh yeah standards that varied from one instructor to another. Even the DCFI and CFI disagreed on topics. I also witnessed many a hungover instructor who I had seen drinking excessively the night before, sit in the circuit with a student all morning.
I have compared instructional content within a number of organisations and beleive that for my money I could of received more than some crap scribbled out the night before from Trevor Thom CIR theory book. Actually the theory instructor had not been current for years and new nothing about GPS NPS.
I believe clubs do not spend enough time on research and development and as such produce poor instructors. My wife is a teacher and the content of some of her books on learning would leave the old Principle and methods scribble that gets written up for dead.
Clubs are great for when you have a licence and want to meet people and go for a fly. I believe that just because a club is a club standards should not lower and testing should be done out of house.
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Thanks for the quick reply Skyway.
I am currently involved with a club that offers flight training. However, rather than providing it ourselves, we have contracted that side of it to a professional organisation. They use the club's aircraft but they provide the instructors and the AOC for the operation.
I believe that this offers some advantages for a small club and the professional organisation. The club does the promotion work so we get new members, we also get the utilisation on the aircraft and the professional organisation gets greater employment opportunities for its staff.
The students get the benefit of instruction from pilots who do more than just instruct as well as a club atmosphere in which to learn to fly.
The financial side is straight forward. The cost of the instructor goes straight to the professional organisation, the hire cost of the aircraft goes to the club.
I think that the students who learn to fly with the club do get a good grounding in aircraft handling, both on and off the ground, but being fully aware at all times is something that only comes with time and experience.
I like to think that I have never stopped learning as there is always something new. I know that in the short time I spent in the Northern Territory, I learnt heaps and that I am a better pilot for it. I suspect the trick is in not forgetting it!
I am currently involved with a club that offers flight training. However, rather than providing it ourselves, we have contracted that side of it to a professional organisation. They use the club's aircraft but they provide the instructors and the AOC for the operation.
I believe that this offers some advantages for a small club and the professional organisation. The club does the promotion work so we get new members, we also get the utilisation on the aircraft and the professional organisation gets greater employment opportunities for its staff.
The students get the benefit of instruction from pilots who do more than just instruct as well as a club atmosphere in which to learn to fly.
The financial side is straight forward. The cost of the instructor goes straight to the professional organisation, the hire cost of the aircraft goes to the club.
I think that the students who learn to fly with the club do get a good grounding in aircraft handling, both on and off the ground, but being fully aware at all times is something that only comes with time and experience.
I like to think that I have never stopped learning as there is always something new. I know that in the short time I spent in the Northern Territory, I learnt heaps and that I am a better pilot for it. I suspect the trick is in not forgetting it!
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Hear, hear, Puff!
IN two parts:
There is too much bagging and not enough helping along in GA;
...seen that one work wonders too.
I think we all admit that being low hour or low experience at ANYTHING in life means you do have a LOT to learn, but it's hard to learn if no one is willing to help teach you, because it's always easier to sit back and make fun of them and give them crap from a distance with your mates....if someone does something wrong, tell them what they did wrong, how to do it right, and not to do it again
.......if they do it again, sack them.....you soon learn that way! If they are that unwilling to listen and learn from the advise of someone with far more experience than them, by sacking them you just might save their life