Cirrus down Gundaroo, 06/10/23
I would generally agree with that sentiment, when teaching spinning to new instructors I tend to approach it from the angle that if it's unintentionally got to this point you've already let the situation get out of hand but you might as well come back to the school with egg on your face rather than in a box. I would say aerobatics instructing is a slightly different kettle of fish but I would certainly expect anyone doing that to have practiced many many spins!
Except that I know two instructors personally that are traumatized due to a student locking up during a stall and entering a spin. Just because you have never experienced it, does not mean it does not happen, and when it does, you really need to have some wits about you to know what to do. I could go on about several other situations that tend to send instructors to seek mental professionals, but we can focus on spins for now. BTW it will make you think twice about about instructing people that are physically stronger than you.
Of course it goes without saying that having not had the experience myself doesn't rule it out of the realms of possibility, but I very much disagree it's a highly likely scenario.
Last edited by NZFlyingKiwi; 13th Oct 2023 at 18:49.
I don't know why some of you keep suggesting a flat spin. That makes no sense, and the evidence is stacked against that theory.
The rate of descent (ROD) in a flat spin is much less than in a regular spin - perhaps 3,000 - 4,000 fpm. For a light aircraft, a normal spin ROD is between 5,000-8,000 fpm. MSY's final descent averaged a geometric (GPS derived) ROD of 9,932 fpm - or taking altitude and time data alone, it lost 7250 ft in 44 seconds which averages out to 9,886 fpm. That is a very high rate for a spin, and I don't think possible for a flat spin.
These numbers still make me suspect there will be a critical part of an airfoil found some distance away.
The rate of descent (ROD) in a flat spin is much less than in a regular spin - perhaps 3,000 - 4,000 fpm. For a light aircraft, a normal spin ROD is between 5,000-8,000 fpm. MSY's final descent averaged a geometric (GPS derived) ROD of 9,932 fpm - or taking altitude and time data alone, it lost 7250 ft in 44 seconds which averages out to 9,886 fpm. That is a very high rate for a spin, and I don't think possible for a flat spin.
These numbers still make me suspect there will be a critical part of an airfoil found some distance away.
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I agree, flat spin is really not an option here, the numbers barely fit with a spin at all, or even a stalled condition. If the autopilot stalled it, or it was passing in and out of a stalled condition with an incapacitated pilot holding it back, it would show a much shallower porpoising profile. As has already been discussed it looks more like something catastrophic happened that also caused an amount of drag that put the aircraft into a very steep, but restrained dive. Something more like a Stuka dive bomber, which was the only dive bomber capable of a sustained completely vertical dive, it even had an automatic dive recovery mechanism as pilots could black out from the g load during pull out.
I meant highly likely over the career of an instructor, not on a day to day basis. It will also depend on what types you fly, some are more aggressive in spin entry than others.
Of course it goes without saying that having not had the experience myself doesn't rule it out of the realms of possibility, but I very much disagree it's a highly likely scenario.
I have no idea how this thread swerved off the road to the point where we discuss incapacitation in the narrow framework of it being only and instantly fatal heart attack. There are dozens of things which can incapacitate you in an airplane for which you can simply pull over in a car. We experienced it with a family member less than a year ago. He was driving in Kelowna, had previously had a heart attack, felt another one coming on, saw the other side of the road was clear with traffic at the oncoming light, swerved across, rolled up onto the curb, and died. A Mountie was at the light, saw it happen, was there almost out instantly, had him out of the car, saw he wasn't breathing, gave him CPR and brought him back.
I believe that the most likely cause of this crash was pilot incapacitation. That is far more deadly in an airplane than in a car. It may well be something else.
No one that has been involved in accident investigation would have any 'belief' in what the 'cause' is at this stage. A key part to being an investigator is to not jump to conclusions until you have as much information as possible. Putting forward 'beliefs' can bias the investigation to 'fit' the outcome you want. You get all the data, witness statements, as much information as possible and then start ruling out what it's not from a list of possibilities that you have made up based on the scenario. The pilot may have had a heart attack after a wing fell off, so if the autopsy found he had died before impact, but you never bother to look for the wing, of course it goes down as an incapacitation instead of inflight break up. And further to that, several posts have indicated why this does not necessarily fit with an incapacitation, first and foremost that the aircraft basically plunged straight down, but not at VNE, even though it was near vertical.
I can agree with that, assuming we're talking long term career instructors. Many instructors 'careers' at the moment are only 200-300 hours!
Except that I know two instructors personally that are traumatized due to a student locking up during a stall and entering a spin. Just because you have never experienced it, does not mean it does not happen, and when it does, you really need to have some wits about you to know what to do. I could go on about several other situations that tend to send instructors to seek mental professionals, but we can focus on spins for now. BTW it will make you think twice about about instructing people that are physically stronger than you.
I and quite a few others had a plan for lockup at the controls. Anytime, but obviously spin training is the most likely situation for that. I kept an 18 inch long 1 inch diameter hardwood dowel in the map pocket on my side. The students knew what it was for, that it was coming across their hand or wrist if they didn't instantly give up control when commanded. Never had to use it.
Except that I know two instructors personally that are traumatized due to a student locking up during a stall and entering a spin. Just because you have never experienced it, does not mean it does not happen, and when it does, you really need to have some wits about you to know what to do. I could go on about several other situations that tend to send instructors to seek mental professionals, but we can focus on spins for now. BTW it will make you think twice about about instructing people that are physically stronger than you.
Forky your back
I was taught a simple, quick, light backhand slap to the face. The instantaneous reaction is for the student to put their hands up to their face, and that breaks the psychological lock they have on the controls.
The scenario was a small turbulence bump, the new student reacting by “bracing” themselves on the yoke, pushing it forward, with the sudden nose down resulting in further “bracing” - and a viscous circle panicked lockup on the controls the result.
Also never had to use it, but was it part of my instructor training from a very experienced 60 year old instructor.
The scenario was a small turbulence bump, the new student reacting by “bracing” themselves on the yoke, pushing it forward, with the sudden nose down resulting in further “bracing” - and a viscous circle panicked lockup on the controls the result.
Also never had to use it, but was it part of my instructor training from a very experienced 60 year old instructor.
I was taught something similar (but less violent) as part of ab-initio RPL training - for use with a panicked passenger in the right seat. Assuming I'm not the only one, it's either a normal part of the syllabus these days or my instructor enjoyed scaring the ****e out of her students!
Back on topic, here's a link to the pending ATSB report:
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/ao-2023-045
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/ao-2023-045
I was taught a simple, quick, light backhand slap to the face. The instantaneous reaction is for the student to put their hands up to their face, and that breaks the psychological lock they have on the controls.
The scenario was a small turbulence bump, the new student reacting by “bracing” themselves on the yoke, pushing it forward, with the sudden nose down resulting in further “bracing” - and a viscous circle panicked lockup on the controls the result.
Also never had to use it, but was it part of my instructor training from a very experienced 60 year old instructor.
The scenario was a small turbulence bump, the new student reacting by “bracing” themselves on the yoke, pushing it forward, with the sudden nose down resulting in further “bracing” - and a viscous circle panicked lockup on the controls the result.
Also never had to use it, but was it part of my instructor training from a very experienced 60 year old instructor.
Back on topic, here's a link to the pending ATSB report:
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/ao-2023-045
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/ao-2023-045
Really?
It's ... breathtaking.
So many ATSB resources are expended on 'PR', but nobody spotted the 'PR' consequences of waving off 4 deaths as a "short" investigation?
It may be that everybody's already decided what happened - wouldn't be the first time; look at this thread - but I'd score 0/10 on 'look'.
So many ATSB resources are expended on 'PR', but nobody spotted the 'PR' consequences of waving off 4 deaths as a "short" investigation?
It may be that everybody's already decided what happened - wouldn't be the first time; look at this thread - but I'd score 0/10 on 'look'.
To be fair Airservices and the Airlines are keeping them rather tied up at the moment, GA is taking a back seat. I've heard phrases like "luck, rather than systems and skill will be the only thing stopping a serious accident in the next few years", too many low experienced personnel across the board in all areas of aviation, and no one willing to pay to fix it.
It's ... breathtaking.
So many ATSB resources are expended on 'PR', but nobody spotted the 'PR' consequences of waving off 4 deaths as a "short" investigation?
It may be that everybody's already decided what happened - wouldn't be the first time; look at this thread - but I'd score 0/10 on 'look'.
So many ATSB resources are expended on 'PR', but nobody spotted the 'PR' consequences of waving off 4 deaths as a "short" investigation?
It may be that everybody's already decided what happened - wouldn't be the first time; look at this thread - but I'd score 0/10 on 'look'.
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