3 lost west of Brisbane Monday 29-8-22
Thread Starter
We don’t get the same level of service down south.
I was flying from Moorabbin to Benambra for Ben Buckleys funeral. Got near Warragul and called in to East Sale Military for a clearance. Got it fine, but the poor chap about 15 miles behind me tracking from Lilydale to Benambra called up and they would only give him a direct track to Benambra, over some of the worst tiger country in Australia. They said it was the only route available for clearance. Poor chap had no options and responded with, “Ok, we’ll I guess the Rotax 912 is a reliable engine” and continued on.
I couldn’t see how he could have done anything else to be safer, other than turn around.
I was flying from Moorabbin to Benambra for Ben Buckleys funeral. Got near Warragul and called in to East Sale Military for a clearance. Got it fine, but the poor chap about 15 miles behind me tracking from Lilydale to Benambra called up and they would only give him a direct track to Benambra, over some of the worst tiger country in Australia. They said it was the only route available for clearance. Poor chap had no options and responded with, “Ok, we’ll I guess the Rotax 912 is a reliable engine” and continued on.
I couldn’t see how he could have done anything else to be safer, other than turn around.
ducked over the range near Pilton, then ducked down one of the valleys running
Having flown down Flagstone Ck following the Moonie pipeline numerous time over a 10 year period, 1700 amsl is the lowest altitude until you have visually passed over the powerline.
If the cloud is on the range, forget it.
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We don’t get the same level of service down south.
I was flying from Moorabbin to Benambra for Ben Buckleys funeral. Got near Warragul and called in to East Sale Military for a clearance. Got it fine, but the poor chap about 15 miles behind me tracking from Lilydale to Benambra called up and they would only give him a direct track to Benambra, over some of the worst tiger country in Australia. They said it was the only route available for clearance. Poor chap had no options and responded with, “Ok, we’ll I guess the Rotax 912 is a reliable engine” and continued on.
I couldn’t see how he could have done anything else to be safer, other than turn around.
I was flying from Moorabbin to Benambra for Ben Buckleys funeral. Got near Warragul and called in to East Sale Military for a clearance. Got it fine, but the poor chap about 15 miles behind me tracking from Lilydale to Benambra called up and they would only give him a direct track to Benambra, over some of the worst tiger country in Australia. They said it was the only route available for clearance. Poor chap had no options and responded with, “Ok, we’ll I guess the Rotax 912 is a reliable engine” and continued on.
I couldn’t see how he could have done anything else to be safer, other than turn around.
Thread Starter
I’ve been through the Sale airspace in VFR lighties multiple times as well, and they were nothing but helpful. If your mate couldn’t get the clearance he wanted, it was almost certainly because there was another aircraft in the way. Perhaps offering to change level or hold for a couple of minutes could have helped? Sorry, but I find it difficult to believe that he “had no options”. The guys in the tower usually do want to help, but it’s a two way street.
I’m not trying to say that mine is bigger, however I’ve been through there probably in excess of 200 times and rarely are the interactions the same. Whilst there is a playbook for ATC, there also a human element there and it’s the same for pilots, who knows what you’ll do or say on your next flight, then throw in the different weather each day.
Yeah that’s fair enough, and it’s certainly fair to say that there is an issue with some pilots feeling intimidated by controlled airspace, particularly if it is denoted as a restricted area with red ink/shading on their charts. Not sure if that had any bearing at all on this current accident, since the PIC was a fairly experienced guy, but it is perhaps something to think about.
https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/view...ument%20rating.
An interesting study paper into VFR into IMC accidents.
Of note table 4, 32% of all VFR into IMC accidents were instrument rated pilots, so having an IR is no cure for this.
Also interesting that 82% of pilots involved in accidents were aged over 40, only 18% were aged under 40. No surprises though that 60% were under 1000 hours TT.
Figure 9 was a good graph of what is the problem, education, private pilots are not trained nearly enough on weather awareness and interpretation and exposure to real world environments is haphazard.
It was good to note that the trend was downward.
I agree that quality IF rated pilots can reduce the occurrence of VFR into IMC accidents, as does additional type specific training. But the huge missing chunk here is just basic understanding of weather and the dangers of operating in or near IMC. Especially the way weather interacts with terrain in valleys and other choke points that you can get trapped in, or lured into. Then if you are trapped on top, even if you stuffed up, ask for assistance.
I have heard several instances on the radio where a VFR pilot has asked for assistance from ATS, followed their instructions and I'm happy to say none I've heard live have ended badly.
An interesting study paper into VFR into IMC accidents.
Of note table 4, 32% of all VFR into IMC accidents were instrument rated pilots, so having an IR is no cure for this.
Also interesting that 82% of pilots involved in accidents were aged over 40, only 18% were aged under 40. No surprises though that 60% were under 1000 hours TT.
Figure 9 was a good graph of what is the problem, education, private pilots are not trained nearly enough on weather awareness and interpretation and exposure to real world environments is haphazard.
It was good to note that the trend was downward.
I agree that quality IF rated pilots can reduce the occurrence of VFR into IMC accidents, as does additional type specific training. But the huge missing chunk here is just basic understanding of weather and the dangers of operating in or near IMC. Especially the way weather interacts with terrain in valleys and other choke points that you can get trapped in, or lured into. Then if you are trapped on top, even if you stuffed up, ask for assistance.
I have heard several instances on the radio where a VFR pilot has asked for assistance from ATS, followed their instructions and I'm happy to say none I've heard live have ended badly.
I have to say - getting a bit sick of the "clapped out engine / steam gauges are unsafe" argument, which is revived here.
It is highly likely this was a passenger transport, paid charter, flight (given that the pilot was involved with a scenic flight rotary wing operation, it is reasonable to assume that the relevant regs should not come as a complete surprise)
Charter operators must replace engine every 2000 hours / 12 years to carry fare paying pax.
Any reasonable charter operator would be replacing an engine every 3-4 years (based on 50 hours a month, on average). Hardly old, then.
The 100hrlys would be happening every 6 weeks to 2 months (on 50 hours a month, average), and must be signed off by a LAME - so it is his licence as well if this is a mechanical issue.
The statement has been made that glass cockpits are more reliable / benefical than steam gauges.
I have flown both, and have found - in my personal experience - that glass cockpits don't react well to Outback dust and dirt.
I have also found that for a pilot inexperienced on a glass cockpit, "chasing the numbers" can be a huge trap.
It is my personal belief, that the most dangerous component on any aircraft is the nut on the control seat.
It is highly likely this was a passenger transport, paid charter, flight (given that the pilot was involved with a scenic flight rotary wing operation, it is reasonable to assume that the relevant regs should not come as a complete surprise)
Charter operators must replace engine every 2000 hours / 12 years to carry fare paying pax.
Any reasonable charter operator would be replacing an engine every 3-4 years (based on 50 hours a month, on average). Hardly old, then.
The 100hrlys would be happening every 6 weeks to 2 months (on 50 hours a month, average), and must be signed off by a LAME - so it is his licence as well if this is a mechanical issue.
The statement has been made that glass cockpits are more reliable / benefical than steam gauges.
I have flown both, and have found - in my personal experience - that glass cockpits don't react well to Outback dust and dirt.
I have also found that for a pilot inexperienced on a glass cockpit, "chasing the numbers" can be a huge trap.
It is my personal belief, that the most dangerous component on any aircraft is the nut on the control seat.
Thread Starter
The most dangerous thing on an aircraft, is a schedule.
It is highly likely this was a passenger transport, paid charter, flight (given that the pilot was involved with a scenic flight rotary wing operation, it is reasonable to assume that the relevant regs should not come as a complete surprise) Charter operators must replace engine every 2000 hours / 12 years to carry fare paying pax.
I have to say - getting a bit sick of the "clapped out engine / steam gauges are unsafe" argument, which is revived here.
Interestingly in Australia I have heard the argument from clients of "it's because we can" that they charter VFR SE aircraft. Yet when the same people charter aircraft in a foreign country it's a multi engine turbine. The reason it's that way is because in some countries a King Air or even a Lear Jet is the cheapest aircraft you can get.
Neville_Nobody:
A PC12 and a C208 can be - and often are - both licenced to carry fare paying passengers at night or in IMC, so ME is not necessarily a requirement for fare paying passenger transport ops under IFR or in IMC.
In this particular case, the actual weather (don't know about the forecast - did not see it) may have suggested that an IFR aircraft and a pilot current and confident in IMC may have been prudent.
If this was a private flight, then a private pilot can fly non-fare paying passengers in IMC or at night is a SE aircraft - provided the aircraft is IFR rated, and the pilot is licenced and current to fly IFR.
If the pilot wasn't IFR current or confident, then IMHO it's always best not to go anywhere near IMC until the pilot gets that sorted.
"In some countries a King Air or even a Lear Jet is the cheapest aircraft you can get".
That's a double edged sword, isn't it.
Some of those countries also don't have the same level of regulatory oversight or safety requirements that Australia does, that make Aussie aviation both ludicrously expensive and (in general) mechanically safer than overseas.
A PC12 and a C208 can be - and often are - both licenced to carry fare paying passengers at night or in IMC, so ME is not necessarily a requirement for fare paying passenger transport ops under IFR or in IMC.
In this particular case, the actual weather (don't know about the forecast - did not see it) may have suggested that an IFR aircraft and a pilot current and confident in IMC may have been prudent.
If this was a private flight, then a private pilot can fly non-fare paying passengers in IMC or at night is a SE aircraft - provided the aircraft is IFR rated, and the pilot is licenced and current to fly IFR.
If the pilot wasn't IFR current or confident, then IMHO it's always best not to go anywhere near IMC until the pilot gets that sorted.
"In some countries a King Air or even a Lear Jet is the cheapest aircraft you can get".
That's a double edged sword, isn't it.
Some of those countries also don't have the same level of regulatory oversight or safety requirements that Australia does, that make Aussie aviation both ludicrously expensive and (in general) mechanically safer than overseas.
Without speculating on exactly what caused this accident, simple fact is that don’t go IMC in anything below the LSAT unless doing an IAP otherwise it will KILL YOU!
I deal with the **** every day when flying in PNG, done it yesterday and I’m sure I’m going to do it today again and tomorrow, and that’s in big aeroplanes in the bush in **** weather amongst big mountains.
Experience, having had a few mates die in CFIT accidents together with having been to accident sites during investigations and witnessing the absolute carnage and devastation is enough to convince me not to put an aeroplane somewhere where it shouldn’t be.
If you’re IMC below LSALT and not visual if opening VFR or visually, you have absolutely no right being there - forget the rules this **** will KILL YOU and anyone on the aircraft with you, and also maybe anyone you might hit on the ground during the impact.
I deal with the **** every day when flying in PNG, done it yesterday and I’m sure I’m going to do it today again and tomorrow, and that’s in big aeroplanes in the bush in **** weather amongst big mountains.
Experience, having had a few mates die in CFIT accidents together with having been to accident sites during investigations and witnessing the absolute carnage and devastation is enough to convince me not to put an aeroplane somewhere where it shouldn’t be.
If you’re IMC below LSALT and not visual if opening VFR or visually, you have absolutely no right being there - forget the rules this **** will KILL YOU and anyone on the aircraft with you, and also maybe anyone you might hit on the ground during the impact.
Something odd about this accident. Experienced professional pilot close to retirement (two months away). That aeroplane has gone down like a lawn dart in the classical stall/spin, spiral dive loss of control way. Little damage to surrounding trees and all the big bits seem to be there. Shame we now have to wait two years to learn anything about the possible cause.
In regard to RAAF Amberley ATC, you couldn't ask for more, always helpful and accommodating and two weeks ago even arranged onwards clearance through Brisbane when I offered to drop below the steps.
In regard to RAAF Amberley ATC, you couldn't ask for more, always helpful and accommodating and two weeks ago even arranged onwards clearance through Brisbane when I offered to drop below the steps.
Hmmm… I get the feeling some would be visualising the pilot of VH-EHM as being an ‘under pressure’ scud runner during the flight. May not be the case. He were a helicopter pilot and a fixed wing pilot. What is considered scud running by a fixed wing pilot is ops normal for a helicopter pilot - different minima’s.
There has been some comment on the meandering track of the flight from Dalby. Whilst the end of the flight track is likely wx related, the entire track may not all be wx related. Any pilot who has carried a person who is into property investment knows that there can be multiple diversions due to just having a look-see at property Xyz. If the intention prior to the flight is to do a bit of farm look-see then it would explain a VFR flight in a high wing aircraft well suited to the job.
It would be interesting to know just what was on the panel of EHM. If it had one of the big new GPS type map screens then the ability to ‘thread the needle’ may very well be there. Although, if all yer see is a screen full of ‘terrain red’ then it can be a bit hard to define - depends on brand, model, and settings.
I still put forward the possibility of a full an avionics screen failure due water shorting the electrics. The pilot having a screen failure then had the option of straight ahead climb or turning back onto a known valley whilst climbing.
As always, I’ll have a look at the ATSB report before ‘judging’ the pilot.
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There has been some comment on the meandering track of the flight from Dalby. Whilst the end of the flight track is likely wx related, the entire track may not all be wx related. Any pilot who has carried a person who is into property investment knows that there can be multiple diversions due to just having a look-see at property Xyz. If the intention prior to the flight is to do a bit of farm look-see then it would explain a VFR flight in a high wing aircraft well suited to the job.
It would be interesting to know just what was on the panel of EHM. If it had one of the big new GPS type map screens then the ability to ‘thread the needle’ may very well be there. Although, if all yer see is a screen full of ‘terrain red’ then it can be a bit hard to define - depends on brand, model, and settings.
I still put forward the possibility of a full an avionics screen failure due water shorting the electrics. The pilot having a screen failure then had the option of straight ahead climb or turning back onto a known valley whilst climbing.
As always, I’ll have a look at the ATSB report before ‘judging’ the pilot.
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Without speculating on exactly what caused this accident, simple fact is that don’t go IMC in anything below the LSAT unless doing an IAP otherwise it will KILL YOU!
I deal with the **** every day when flying in PNG, done it yesterday and I’m sure I’m going to do it today again and tomorrow, and that’s in big aeroplanes in the bush in **** weather amongst big mountains.
Experience, having had a few mates die in CFIT accidents together with having been to accident sites during investigations and witnessing the absolute carnage and devastation is enough to convince me not to put an aeroplane somewhere where it shouldn’t be.
If you’re IMC below LSALT and not visual if opening VFR or visually, you have absolutely no right being there - forget the rules this **** will KILL YOU and anyone on the aircraft with you, and also maybe anyone you might hit on the ground during the impact.
I deal with the **** every day when flying in PNG, done it yesterday and I’m sure I’m going to do it today again and tomorrow, and that’s in big aeroplanes in the bush in **** weather amongst big mountains.
Experience, having had a few mates die in CFIT accidents together with having been to accident sites during investigations and witnessing the absolute carnage and devastation is enough to convince me not to put an aeroplane somewhere where it shouldn’t be.
If you’re IMC below LSALT and not visual if opening VFR or visually, you have absolutely no right being there - forget the rules this **** will KILL YOU and anyone on the aircraft with you, and also maybe anyone you might hit on the ground during the impact.
Thread Starter
Thread Starter
Something odd about this accident. Experienced professional pilot close to retirement (two months away). That aeroplane has gone down like a lawn dart in the classical stall/spin, spiral dive loss of control way. Little damage to surrounding trees and all the big bits seem to be there.