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Are commercial pilots still against Class E?

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Are commercial pilots still against Class E?

Old 6th May 2020, 03:03
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So, Australian pilots of IFR aircraft would prefer to arrange themselves to no particular standard. rather than have ATC apply defined separation standards , even when ATC have both aircraft identified via ADS-B ? You know? That equipment that you had to have fitted under the mandatory ADS-B requirements? You paid all that money yet don't expect any return??
Pretty much sums it up. Pilots need to get out a little more and see how it's done elsewhere, an open mind helps.

AOPA in the US wouldn't cop this sort of garbage, if you're mandating equipment, stump up the procedures that use it.
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Old 6th May 2020, 07:13
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Originally Posted by Hoosten View Post
If a VFR aircraft requires a transponder in Class E airspace, I would argue that the intent of Class E airspace is for it to be survielled


I think that's an Australianism, as I understand it a transponder is not required e.g. in the USA. I assumed it was for TCAS purposes rather than ATC, which is reasonable given the locations and small quantities of E in Australia.

If E was used more extensively as it is in the USA, you would have to allow non-transponder aircraft.


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Old 6th May 2020, 08:23
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Class E only benefits the VFR pilot. Otherwise, if the surveillance is there to make it a Class E airspace, you'd make it Class C or similar, but no, the VFR pilot would need a clearance in that....
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Old 6th May 2020, 14:05
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fixa 24. What an extraordinary statement. Are you suggesting class E at Mangalore would not have likely saved 4 lives? Both aircraft were operating under the IFR and would have been separated by ATC to a written standard if in E.
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Old 6th May 2020, 14:10
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Andrewr. I introduced the mandatory transponder for VFR as part of the deal to remove the “road block “ class C above D

Yes the same roadblock that forced the Mooney pilot to a low level at Coffs Harbour.

Another 2 dead.
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Old 7th May 2020, 00:42
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I like the idea of lowering E, it’ll obviously make separation safer as the big guy behind the scope has bigger and broader picture of what’s happening. I do however think VFR should require a clearance to enter E.
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Old 7th May 2020, 01:15
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Originally Posted by 717tech View Post
I like the idea of lowering E, it’ll obviously make separation safer as the big guy behind the scope has bigger and broader picture of what’s happening. I do however think VFR should require a clearance to enter E.
wouldn't that just make it C?


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Old 7th May 2020, 01:19
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Originally Posted by jonkster View Post
wouldn't that just make it C?
Probably, so make it Class C.
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Old 7th May 2020, 01:38
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Originally Posted by 717tech View Post
I like the idea of lowering E, it’ll obviously make separation safer as the big guy behind the scope has bigger and broader picture of what’s happening. I do however think VFR should require a clearance to enter E.
Class E is HUGE in this country. The radar coverage would simply not be there to cover it.
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Old 7th May 2020, 01:46
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Originally Posted by fixa 24
Class E only benefits the VFR pilot. Otherwise, if the surveillance is there to make it a Class E airspace, you'd make it Class C or similar, but no, the VFR pilot would need a clearance in that....
Originally Posted by Dick
fixa 24. What an extraordinary statement. Are you suggesting class E at Mangalore would not have likely saved 4 lives?
No, they are not suggesting that, obviously. Read it again.
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Old 7th May 2020, 02:29
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Class E is HUGE in this country. The radar coverage would simply not be there to cover it.
There are huge advances being made in ADSB surveillance, satellite even. Radar will be for very specific use, around major aerodromes where primary surveillance is required.
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Old 7th May 2020, 02:50
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What’s the advantage to VFR aircraft in not requiring an airways clearance? Does it save money?
A broad practice behind Class E airspace if it is being used in the spirit it is meant to operate as, is that if the conditions are VMC that arriving IFR aircraft will cancel IFR and look after their own separation. An assumption is that if IMC conditions exist, there won't be any VFR operating in IMC in the airspace. Assumptions aren't cool in ATC or in a cockpit.

Just say 2 IFR aircraft are operating in Class E in a layer of cloud, between 6000 and 2000ft, the aircraft will be subject to positive separation from an ATC. Just say a VFR aircraft can operate legally in VMC at 75000ft in that Class E airspace. The airspace allows the VFR aircraft access to that airspace without a clearance. It frees the ATC from providing that clearance service, more time spent allocated to separating IFR aircraft. Less hassle to the VFR aircraft. If there is surveillance in this airspace, the ATC will 'see' the VFR and pass traffic to the IFR if required. The controller may even attempt to contact the VFR to gain it's intentions so they can be passed on. Hell, the VFR can also ask for a radar service whilst in this, or any other class of airspace.

VFR aircraft avoid controlled airspace in this country like the plague. For good reason, it is virtually impossible in some scenarios to get a clearance. VFR pilots (especially if they're low experience pilots) are intimidated by ATC. There are other reasons why but it upsets some people's sensibilities to hear these reasons.

The Class E airspace allows more access to airspace to VFR than they are getting now.
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Old 7th May 2020, 02:54
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Class E is not meant to and never will replace Class C.

Class E has it's place. It is an upgrade to Class G airspace when traffic densities justify it. Class E is much cheaper to operate than Class C.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:21
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
fixa 24. What an extraordinary statement. Are you suggesting class E at Mangalore would not have likely saved 4 lives? Both aircraft were operating under the IFR and would have been separated by ATC to a written standard if in E.
Hi Dick.
I'm not suggesting that at all, theoretically that wouldn't have happened if it was E, or C, or D. Any kind of controlled airspace will give IFR aircraft that form of protection. But Class E allows VFR's in there that no-one knows about. So if you are going to go to the expense ( and have sufficient surveillance to do this) of making it E, then make it C and you can know about all the aircraft in there. If you make it E, then you still have an unknown factor.. I don't subscribe to the theory that E is cheaper than C, where would be the cost saving? Still needs equipment (Surveillance, comms, procedures) and a human looking at the screen, so there's no saving there.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:41
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Originally Posted by fixa24
I don't subscribe to the theory that E is cheaper than C, where would be the cost saving? Still needs equipment (Surveillance, comms, procedures) and a human looking at the screen, so there's no saving there.
And if it is [much!] cheaper, it can only be because ATC don't have to separate VFR from anybody else. Which is obviously a copout because they are still there, it's just that nobody knows about them (Houston). That sometimes leads to midair collisions.
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:01
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At least in E airspace, VFR aircraft are required to have a transponder and monitor area frequency, how is that not much better for IFR aircraft than what happens in G currently?
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:38
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It is much cheaper if it is used as it is intended to be. i.e. arriving IFR cancelling IFR in severe blue. The service gets used in full anger when it's needed, in IMC.

Bloggs, they ARE known about. You don't want to acknowledge the example I gave above. Trust the controller, whenever they see the VFR paint and it affects the IFR it MUST be advised to the IFR as traffic.

I have never known any Australian ATC to try find a cop out clause. They do what the airspace mandates, give them E and they will use it appropriately. Give them C and if they're busy they'll knock back the VFR clearance every time.

It appears to me that you've never experienced Class E in its real form, either as a VFR or an IFR?
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Old 7th May 2020, 10:57
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I used to get annoyed when I’d hear pilots specifically request any IFR traffic and you’d hear a reply from ATC saying that there was perhaps one or none. Then the pilot would ask separately for any VFR traffic and the controller would come back with 5-10 more.

I feel like coverage and procedure have improved significantly in the last 10 years as you don’t hear those types of things these days. I’ve also started getting a lot more of the “unidentified aircraft 15 miles east of Romsey, you’ve got another aircraft converging at your 2 o’clock.

Thumbs up for that ATC’ers.

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Old 7th May 2020, 11:00
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs View Post
And if it is [much!] cheaper, it can only be because ATC don't have to separate VFR from anybody else. Which is obviously a copout because they are still there, it's just that nobody knows about them (Houston). That sometimes leads to midair collisions.
I am not really getting the problem with E.

In VMC, VFR aircraft must have transponders and must be monitoring the frequency, they will be operating at VFR levels and will be using see and avoid for other VFR aircraft, just like G (and D).

IFR aircraft will be operating at IFR levels, separated from other IFR and also will be given traffic info on VFR

When it is IMC there won't be VFR aircraft there.

Sure if people do not follow the requirements that is a different matter but wouldn't that be the same problem no matter what airspace category it was?
ie: if someone blundered into E with no transponder and on the wrong frequency and at an IFR level they would be a big hazard but wouldn't they be the same hazard if we made it C and they blundered into it in the same way?

How often have there been midairs between IFR and VFR in E - and when it has happened, how many of those would have been avoided if it was class C?

Am I missing something?
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Old 7th May 2020, 11:46
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jonkster, no, you're not missing anything.
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