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Are commercial pilots still against Class E?

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Are commercial pilots still against Class E?

Old 1st May 2020, 04:51
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Are commercial pilots still against Class E?

One of the many reasons that I had difficulty in lowering Class E airspace to the circuit area is that many professional pilots were against it. They all claimed that the self-separation they had been doing for many years was satisfactory.

Now that we have had this terrible accident at Mangalore, with four fatalities, have professional pilots changed their minds? What do people think?
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Old 1st May 2020, 08:01
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Thank goodness the shops have plenty of popcorn..
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Old 1st May 2020, 08:48
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I seem to recall it was E without Radar that some commercial pilots weren't keen on. Subtleties Dick, subtleties. The world is not black/white, us/them.
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Old 1st May 2020, 08:54
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Mangalore used to have a Control Tower and a Control Zone; re-activate the facility.


Last edited by Office Update; 1st May 2020 at 08:54. Reason: spelling
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Old 1st May 2020, 08:54
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But - But - everyone has ADS-B now. That'll fix everything!
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Old 1st May 2020, 09:56
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How does non-radar Class E assist in a VFR-VFR collision?
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Old 1st May 2020, 10:06
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
How does non-radar Class E assist in a VFR-VFR collision?
The incident was IFR-IFR, VFR will visually seperate regardless of class of airspace
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Old 1st May 2020, 11:35
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Covid-19 will be a significant and convenient block to airspace reform in this country. The organisations that were spending money on projects aren't anymore due to significant loss of revenue. What would be a golden opportunity to re-structure the lot in line with onesky is probably gone. On the subject of whether pilots are for or against, they don't know enough about it. Heavily tainted views from pilots with vested interests scuttled it last time. Having said that, a lot of the prior incarnation was done without the appropriate surveillance. E without surveillance is a recipe for you know what.
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Old 1st May 2020, 12:33
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In Australia there is a mandatory transponder requirement in class E for VFR aircraft.

Surely that adds to safety compared to class G at the same location.
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Old 1st May 2020, 12:45
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Without surveillance that only helps TCAS or traffic equipped aircraft. There's not a whole lot of that in the GA fleet at the moment.

Gimme Class E any day over the pre-historic and backward Class G, but it needs the surveillance.

Last edited by Hoosten; 1st May 2020 at 13:00.
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Old 1st May 2020, 23:22
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Originally Posted by Hoosten View Post
E without surveillance is a recipe for you know what.
Procedural separation?

It puzzles me that pilots think they can do a better job of arranging separation via radio than ATC. When pilots do their own IFR separation in Class G it seems to be based on the principle that if no-one saw it, it never happened. Whereas if ATC are arranging separation, you know when there was a problem. You can guarantee that for every collision or known loss of separation in Class G, there were hundreds more that went unreported.
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Old 1st May 2020, 23:46
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Originally Posted by Hoosten View Post
E without surveillance is a recipe for you know what.


Not too busy this weekend so I guess I'll have time to review the report of the CASA study: RFQ 09-342: Safety Benefits of Surveillance in Airspace. International study team (US, European, UK, Australia and NZ, all with 25 years plus airspace management experience) and peer reviewed.

Don't worry trying to find it on the CASA website - they decided not to publish it because it failed to toe the party line.

MJG

Last edited by mgahan; 2nd May 2020 at 01:03.
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Old 2nd May 2020, 02:12
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Hoosten - E without surveillance can work but like all procedural separation it is very slow and clunky - ALL airspace is safer with surveillance.

Mr Flappy - VFR used to be separated in Australia when we just had CTA and OCTA however a conundrum existed.
For instance, two VFR aircraft approach a control area self separating, they are then split up by ATC, before going back to self separating when they exit the control area. Where is the sense in that? Worse what if they can no longer see each other but ATC washes their hands of them anyway!

For mgahan the Coolangatta mid-air was a classic example of an airspace long overdue for surveillance - we typically waited for four people to die before putting surveillance in there. You will also remember that the RAAF took back approach control at Townsville because the CAA was still living 30 years behind the traffic.
Nothing has changed!
(PS Have you got a link for RFQ 09-342? I cannot find it)
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Old 2nd May 2020, 09:38
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Procedural separation?
I don't think the intent of Class E is to be non-surveillance therefore procedural sep, do-able, no probs. There are huge advances in surveillance and much cheaper than setting up radar heads all over the place.

Hoosten - E without surveillance can work but like all procedural separation it is very slow and clunky - ALL airspace is safer with surveillance.


I hear you, my reply above yours is probably applicable to you too I reckon?
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Old 4th May 2020, 04:37
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Approach - PM sent.

MJG
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Old 5th May 2020, 11:04
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So, Australian pilots of IFR aircraft would prefer to arrange themselves to no particular standard. rather than have ATC apply defined separation standards , even when ATC have both aircraft identified via ADS-B ? You know? That equipment that you had to have fitted under the mandatory ADS-B requirements? You paid all that money yet donít expect any return??
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Old 5th May 2020, 22:19
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Originally Posted by Hoosten View Post
I don't think the intent of Class E is to be non-surveillance therefore procedural sep
The intent of class E is to separate aircraft in IMC. Surveillance or non surveillance is secondary, and would be dependent on traffic and availability of the equipment.

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Old 5th May 2020, 22:26
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Originally Posted by Mr Approach View Post
E without surveillance can work but like all procedural separation it is very slow and clunky
It is slow and clunky because that is what is required to ensure separation.

Separation in IMC in class G should be EVEN MORE clunky because it is being done by pilots who can't issue instructions to other aircraft and don't have an ATC-style big picture of the situation.

If it isn't more clunky than ATC procedural separation, it is because they are not applying the same safety standards.
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Old 6th May 2020, 01:50
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It is slow and clunky because that is what is required to ensure separation.
Yep, I know, I did it for 18 years or so.

Separation in IMC in class G should be EVEN MORE clunky because it is being done by pilots who can't issue instructions to other aircraft and don't have an ATC-style big picture of the situation.
Yep, I know, been doing that for about 15 years, I've had the benefit of the other stuff I did for 18 years to help me out. Unfortunately a lot of IFR dudes, IFR in G, don't understand what can be provided in E.
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Old 6th May 2020, 01:55
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The intent of class E is to separate aircraft in IMC. Surveillance or non surveillance is secondary, and would be dependent on traffic and availability of the equipment.
If a VFR aircraft requires a transponder in Class E airspace, I would argue that the intent of Class E airspace is for it to be survielled, Not a crack at ya, obviously Class E can be done procedurally but I don't think I'd want to be mixing it there without surveillance.
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