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Accident Near Mangalore Airport - Possibly 2 Aircraft down

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Accident Near Mangalore Airport - Possibly 2 Aircraft down

Old 2nd Mar 2020, 10:08
  #301 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
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It is surprising how powerful you consider me to be. Thanks for the respect.
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 10:30
  #302 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs View Post
Oh well, another Prune thread dies at the hands of Lead Balloon. Well done.
About time someone killed it. We should be thanking him
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 11:25
  #303 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Care to post a link to the inquiry into airspace arrangements to which I can make or could have made a submission, Capín?
You could start with the Pilbara; CASA are consulting now on preferred airspace classification.
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 19:33
  #304 (permalink)  
 
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The Pilbara is the Capn’s part of the Galapagos. I’m sure he’ll make a substantial contribution to the review.
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 22:46
  #305 (permalink)  
 
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Pictures of the aviators killed in this incident are starting to hit the various forms of media. There's a gofundme to get Ido's body home, no doubt to get the Asian students body home as well.

Those of you talking about cost, I've no doubt you won't contribute, after all, nobody wants to pay, who's gunna pay?

Take a good look at the photo's of these people, have a think about their families, their partners and children.

What's that about cost again?

All for the cost of E to 1200, the cost of an airspace promulgation, some maps, in line with an update, and maybe an extra ATC or two? Sorry guys, Jason gave a bunch of ATC's redundancy in the midst of a staffing crisis.

World's Second Best ATC: Disclaimer, this statement does not attach any discredit to any serving current or former line controlling ATC. It is a remark placed squarely at the feet of your sub standard management.
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 22:53
  #306 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
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Dang. It's a public holiday tomorrow. Kindergarten won't be open until Tuesday.
Tough times for parents or carers when these services are closed for a 3 day weekend.

What arrangements did your carers make for you? Get much play dough time in?
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 22:54
  #307 (permalink)  
 
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Hoosten, That is disgusting.

Originally Posted by Ledd Balon
The Pilbara is the Capn’s part of the Galapagos. I’m sure he’ll make a substantial contribution to the review.
Yet another thoughful and constructive post from the ace of the base.
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 23:24
  #308 (permalink)  
 
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Idoís fundraiser has now completed. Many thanks to those that have contributed.

Last edited by Squawk7700; 2nd Mar 2020 at 23:36.
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 02:06
  #309 (permalink)  
 
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Hoosten, That is disgusting.
What is disgusting? A response to your disgusting post? I'm assuming your post is disgusting as my reply is a direct response to yours?

If you're talking about the post above, I can only suggest that you're hyper-sensitive? A snowflake? Or you're creating garbage outrage to my emotive post?

Grow up.
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 02:29
  #310 (permalink)  
 
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OCTA Aus , I’m sure you’d like this thread closed.
But you never really addressed the issue did you ?
Are non-controlled CTAFs safe or fail dangerous ?
What is your confidence that the probability of a major disaster involving an RPT jet are remote ?
George Glass is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2020, 03:45
  #311 (permalink)  
 
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Crap, I am way out on my thought process. Why didn't the outbound stay on the ground till inbound was visual or reported passing the aid? Sorry OCTA, there is absolutely zip any service would make a difference here. Waiting a couple of minutes on the ground would nave made all the difference. I am totally wrong on this argument.
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 06:08
  #312 (permalink)  
 
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Operations in a CTAF/Class G

These comments do not relate to the accident in question as we are not aware of what exactly the lead up to the event was and considering there were two experienced pilots involved it is hard to understand what may have occurred, and there is no doubt the possibility of many contributing factors.

As an experienced RPT/GA operator in both Class G and CTAFs and the former MBZs, I make some comment on something that has not been specifically discussed here to date. And that is the training of pilots in operating in that category of airspace within Oz. For a start, the last time I looked, the operation in a CTAF was NOT covered in any of the associated exams for any class of licence. If this is still the case, such teachings are therefore the responsibility of the flying school or operator, be it the individual instructor of someone under the guidance of the CFI/Chief Pilot.
What this results in in my opinion is that the training in this area is not subject to any across the industry standardisation and the results show. For example, one operator may do it one way and another do some things differently eg: first call, listening watch prior to first call, use of two comms, separation assurance with known traffic etc etc. Some even believe that if you talk a lot it solves the problem, but that just jams the airwaves with stuff we should already know. As for what some flying schools teach that is yet another story. My experience with some CFI conferences hosted by CASA is that there is many different ideas on how one should participate in uncontrolled airspace and it seems that CASA believe the existing non standardisation is ok. I have put forward a number of times that these teachings should be subject to standardisation and subject to questions in related exam papers. One of the problems is that the folk in CASA responsible for this, don't seem to realise it is a problem and have varied views themselves! Even within this thread we see a variety of views/opinions on how it should be done. Why is it so?

Last edited by triadic; 3rd Mar 2020 at 09:16.
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 06:13
  #313 (permalink)  
 
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Well , there you have it.
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 07:46
  #314 (permalink)  
 
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There is absolutely no standardisation in any of the flight training thatís done in Australia, let alone training related to operating at non controlled aerodromes.

Even know the Part 61 MOS can be seen from the moon according to some of my ex colleagues in CASA Standards down in Canberra, a lot of the required learning outcomes in the MOS are so broad to the extent that it allows for a lot of potential misinterpretation with regards to exactly what the required standards must be to issue a licence or rating to a pilot under training.

A little of the topic however itís relevant to the last couple of posts.

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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 08:01
  #315 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hoosten View Post
Pictures of the aviators killed in this incident are starting to hit the various forms of media. There's a gofundme to get Ido's body home, no doubt to get the Asian students body home as well.

Those of you talking about cost, I've no doubt you won't contribute, after all, nobody wants to pay, who's gunna pay?

Take a good look at the photo's of these people, have a think about their families, their partners and children.

What's that about cost again?

All for the cost of E to 1200, the cost of an airspace promulgation, some maps, in line with an update, and maybe an extra ATC or two? Sorry guys, Jason gave a bunch of ATC's redundancy in the midst of a staffing crisis.

World's Second Best ATC: Disclaimer, this statement does not attach any discredit to any serving current or former line controlling ATC. It is a remark placed squarely at the feet of your sub standard management.
There is a bit more to getting E down to 1200ft, mostly in the training for both the controllers and the flight crews, however I would concede that it is probably achievable and I suspect achievable with the current staff. While I think I understand the concept of what your proposing, I don't have the details However I guarantee people will have to be dragged kicking and screaming for it to occur. My question would be what metric is used to decide which aerodromes get E down to 1200ft? Is it any aerodrome that has an instrument approach? Or any aerodrome with more than a certain number of movements? Keep in mind that movements may not be the best indicator of business because a lot of our IFR training aerodromes the aircraft doesn't physically land on the aerodrome.

For an editorial on your comment, no operational ATC staff were able to get a redundancy in that last round, it was all back room staff. The biggest issue as far as staffing goes comes from the lead in time to train an ATC up to operational level, and at the moment I don't believe we are able to hire anyone from overseas to help.
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 08:07
  #316 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
OCTA Aus , Iím sure youíd like this thread closed.
But you never really addressed the issue did you ?
Are non-controlled CTAFs safe or fail dangerous ?
What is your confidence that the probability of a major disaster involving an RPT jet are remote ?
Before I answer I just want to check I fully understand what you are proposing. Are you suggesting we totally eliminate uncontrolled aerodromes? And replace them with what? I fully agree CTAF procedures have their limitations, but they are going to continue to exist. The resources to make every aerodrome with more than one aircraft in the air a controlled aerodrome would be enormous.

My confidence that a disaster with an RPT jet being remote is not as good as I wish it was. Statistically Australia has had a pretty lucky run but at some point the numbers are going to catch us. Do I think the cause is going to be an RPT jet hitting a light aircraft at an uncontrolled aerodrome? No, I think the airlines are more than capable of finding some other way of doing it with all their cost cutting.
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 08:30
  #317 (permalink)  
 
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use of two comms
THAT is the issue. Airy Fairy USA CTAF "dimensions" that are too close in, requiring the use of two radios simultaneously. Triadic, IMO that was/is always a very unwise idea and doesn't happen in my cockpit. We had it right before.
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 09:05
  #318 (permalink)  
 
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”a pretty lucky run ”

Is that it ? A defence of the system ?

Good grief.

And no , its not the airlines fault. The operator I work for spends simulator time mitigating the risk.

Good grief.
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 09:25
  #319 (permalink)  
 
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George, you're pretty vocal on this, particularly as someone who actually (if I read this thread right) operated in a High Cap cockpit in this environment.

What is your solution?
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 09:43
  #320 (permalink)  
 
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THAT is the issue. Airy Fairy USA CTAF "dimensions" that are too close in, requiring the use of two radios simultaneously. Triadic, IMO that was/is always a very unwise idea and doesn't happen in my cockpit. We had it right before.
Capt, with all due respect I suggest that by not using 2 comms in a controlled manner you may be putting yourself at risk by not hearing traffic on the frequency that you are not listening to. I have had occasions where another IFR has taxied and called centre, but the CTAF call (if made) was not heard. I have also had occasions where centre have called me with traffic when inside the CTAF. (our company procedure was not to call "changing to CTAF" - that way centre would know we were still on the Class G freq.) The key is to have it briefed well within the crew and to follow standard company procedures. What I suggested in the previous post was that not many operators have procedures and standards for operating in class G/CTAF's and it is certainly not covered in a standard manner within flying schools. If you think you are ok with one com then fine, but is that the same across all the ops in your company or just you? I used to fly SP IFR and even in that environment two com's in a CTAF was SOP in my company. cheers
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