VH-YTM final report
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I hate CASA as much as the next gender neutral pilot. But if you can’t read your own rant above and understand your view is greatly warped because you have an axe to grind with aviation oversight, then no amount of me or others pointing it out will make one iota of difference. I can’t imagine any ATSB report being produced at the moment where you don’t throw your hands up in the air dramatically and wander off muttering CASA this and CASA that.
As for commercial pressures, I think you’re struggling to grasp the concept. A 200 hour pilot with a CPL and a pushy boss - they have 3x the experience under their belt, they have currency, they have more IF training, they have better theory and human factors awareness. Does that mean they won’t make a mistake? No. But they are better equipped to resist pressures of people and schedules - absolutely.
In my mind, AngelFlight involves private operations where the the possibility of get-there-itis is placed into the shoulders of pilots who don’t normally and who haven’t been trained to recognise and resist those forces. AngelFlight can throw their hands up in the air Helen Lovejoy style about statistics and ATSB has gone to the dogs blah blah blah... or they can suck it up, and invest that energy in training and awareness for their pilots about how to recognise and avoid these things in the future.
Flying is fun, it can also be incredibly dangerous! The rules are there for YOUR protection, go outside of them then you are in personal test pilot territory!
That saying "a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous" is very real in this tragic event as well as many other "phew that was close" stories that we never hear about!
When we fly whether it be for pleasure or reward we do so full knowing that there is a line in the sand for all of us, cross it at your own peril!
I wouldn't mind a bet that this was not the first time this pilot has done this. I reckon we all know of VFR pilots that push the boundaries. Some are lucky and scare themselves, get away with it and never do it again. A close friend lucky had room to recover from a spiral before he hit the ground, he was over confident but learnt, another didn't recover and took 2 others with him. Others just never learn, 'escaped once so I must be good' thinking and continue to roll the dice. Better training, absolutely, but currency and attitude a very big part of making pilots safer and for some just they just don't care.
I wouldn't mind a bet that this was not the first time this pilot has done this
My daughter and her daughter did not have any say in the Mount Gambier plane crash. My daughter had asked me "How can a pilot fly in cloud ?" as my daughter Tracy told me that this particular pilot had flown in IFR with them previously. I, Fifty years ago flew gliders and I explained to my daughter how it was suppose to work. I convinced her that it would be OK, I also told her if she was scared about flying conditions, then don't go. I would drive them both to Adelaide and back again, A fifteen hour drive. I had been driving them to Adelaide and back up to three times a week. That is why she organised the Angel Flight, to save her seventy years old father (me) whom after some two months was physically becoming unable to continue with the driving. I trusted them to a stranger. Now they are dead.
For Ten weeks I had been driving my daughter and grand daughter to Adelaide and back the same day, three times a week. My daughter was trying to save the life of here daughter who on that same day was going to be admitted to the eating disorder clinic. I would suggest all here go and research anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa. I told our Tracy there is a 30% chance Emily was going to die of the mental illness, no matter what everybody was doing for Emily. "Dad, shes my daughter, I have to do this". Tracy was our daughter and I had to do this
too. But I at seventy plus, all that travelling and 15 hours terribly emotional trips was slowly wearing me down. My daughter organised AF so save my health. Tracy was our only daughter and I wish I had died instead of those two beautiful human beings - "The world is a sadder place with their going"
too. But I at seventy plus, all that travelling and 15 hours terribly emotional trips was slowly wearing me down. My daughter organised AF so save my health. Tracy was our only daughter and I wish I had died instead of those two beautiful human beings - "The world is a sadder place with their going"
I wonder what the regulatory response would have been if they’d all died in a crash on the road, the father having finally succumbed to fatigue during one of the 15 hour drives. (Actually, I don’t wonder.)
With hindsight, of course anyone in his or her right mind would avoid a flight during which the pilot is going to make fatal decisions. But it does not follow that avoiding that flight would have guaranteed the passengers’ survival.
How many people die of a condition as a consequence of the impracticalities of road travel to specialists? How many people die during long road trips to specialist appointments? I do not know, precisely, but I do know it’s more than die during Community Service flights.
While ever the answers to these questions are irrelevant to the aviation regulator, it will continue to be expedient for the aviation regulator to shift ever more risk out of sight and out of mind. But make no mistake: there is a cost to society every time the shift happens.
With hindsight, of course anyone in his or her right mind would avoid a flight during which the pilot is going to make fatal decisions. But it does not follow that avoiding that flight would have guaranteed the passengers’ survival.
How many people die of a condition as a consequence of the impracticalities of road travel to specialists? How many people die during long road trips to specialist appointments? I do not know, precisely, but I do know it’s more than die during Community Service flights.
While ever the answers to these questions are irrelevant to the aviation regulator, it will continue to be expedient for the aviation regulator to shift ever more risk out of sight and out of mind. But make no mistake: there is a cost to society every time the shift happens.
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I fail to see the comparison to road trauma here, they died in a plane crash! They could have stepped off the curb & hit by a bus going to the airport or going to travel by car, it's irrelevant to compare such things??? Everything in life we do is risky but flying is an added risk that in this case was totally avoidable despite what "MIGHT" have happened had they have driven!!!!
Whist CASA/ATSB have poorly handled this report I do believe that a shake up is needed big time!!
These hapless innocent people climbed aboard a plane with a pilot who ought not to have even had a pilots license! Imagine being a family member of the deceased, they would be mortified reading some of the comments here!
I can't even imagine what they still go thru to this day!
Whist CASA/ATSB have poorly handled this report I do believe that a shake up is needed big time!!
These hapless innocent people climbed aboard a plane with a pilot who ought not to have even had a pilots license! Imagine being a family member of the deceased, they would be mortified reading some of the comments here!
I can't even imagine what they still go thru to this day!
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say, mach. Could you please use more question and exclamation marks?
”Everything in life we do is risky”. Indeed. Do you now consider that community service flights are risk-free? If they’re not, what should the regulatory response be when there’s another fatal accident in the course of a community service flight?
If community service flights were to be banned, would there be no cost to the community? If there would be no cost, they should be banned.
”Everything in life we do is risky”. Indeed. Do you now consider that community service flights are risk-free? If they’re not, what should the regulatory response be when there’s another fatal accident in the course of a community service flight?
If community service flights were to be banned, would there be no cost to the community? If there would be no cost, they should be banned.
Looks like the senate is going to investigate some of the ATSB conclusions. Hope Angel Flight have got all their ducks in a row and can argue their case well.
https://www.australianflying.com.au/...gambier-report
https://www.australianflying.com.au/...gambier-report
I think the analysis comparing AF flights to RPT availability is amiss. The Father in this case had been driving three round trips to Adelaide from Mount Gambier per week for ten weeks. The cost of a return RPT ticket on Rex varies today between $256.20 and $986.60 depending on ticket type. Assuming the Mother needs to accompany her Daughter, that's $512.40 per trip, $1,537.20 per week using the cheapest ticket option. Who could afford that?
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I think the analysis comparing AF flights to RPT availability is amiss. The Father in this case had been driving three round trips to Adelaide from Mount Gambier per week for ten weeks. The cost of a return RPT ticket on Rex varies today between $256.20 and $986.60 depending on ticket type. Assuming the Mother needs to accompany her Daughter, that's $512.40 per trip, $1,537.20 per week using the cheapest ticket option. Who could afford that?
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There are at least three daily RPT services from Mount Gambier to Adelaide with fares at stupidly low levels of about $100, so I'm really not sure why there was a need to send a VFR Tobago to do this.
The bigger concern I have is that Angel Flight seem to be able to pull the "oh but we're a charity" line and the public seems to think that means they can pull stuff like this. VFR flights in IFR conditions that are simply not required. Based on my last payslip, I paid about $3000 in income tax in 14 days, so why is there a need for this organisation to even exist?
I have fully read this report and I cannot see the reason for the "outrage" against the ATSB, except for the usual "CASA/ATSB must always be wrong" carry on. It seems to me to be a balanced and factual report that outlines the serious risks with this cowboy operation
The bigger concern I have is that Angel Flight seem to be able to pull the "oh but we're a charity" line and the public seems to think that means they can pull stuff like this. VFR flights in IFR conditions that are simply not required. Based on my last payslip, I paid about $3000 in income tax in 14 days, so why is there a need for this organisation to even exist?
I have fully read this report and I cannot see the reason for the "outrage" against the ATSB, except for the usual "CASA/ATSB must always be wrong" carry on. It seems to me to be a balanced and factual report that outlines the serious risks with this cowboy operation
Last edited by VHFRT; 24th Aug 2019 at 14:05.
VHFRT, I fail to understand how you could possibly make the statement that Angel Flight is a “cowboy operation”. Are you deliberately trying to be offensive? Or are you just a pig ignorant troll?
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There are at least three daily RPT services from Mount Gambier to Adelaide with fares at stupidly low levels of about $100, so I'm really not sure why there was a need to send a VFR Tobago to do this.
The bigger concern I have is that Angel Flight seem to be able to pull the "oh but we're a charity" line and the public seems to think that means they can pull stuff like this. VFR flights in IFR conditions that are simply not required. Based on my last payslip, I paid about $3000 in income tax in 14 days, so why is there a need for this organisation to even exist?
I have fully read this report and I cannot see the reason for the "outrage" against the ATSB, except for the usual "CASA/ATSB must always be wrong" carry on. It seems to me to be a balanced and factual report that outlines the serious risks with this cowboy operation
The bigger concern I have is that Angel Flight seem to be able to pull the "oh but we're a charity" line and the public seems to think that means they can pull stuff like this. VFR flights in IFR conditions that are simply not required. Based on my last payslip, I paid about $3000 in income tax in 14 days, so why is there a need for this organisation to even exist?
I have fully read this report and I cannot see the reason for the "outrage" against the ATSB, except for the usual "CASA/ATSB must always be wrong" carry on. It seems to me to be a balanced and factual report that outlines the serious risks with this cowboy operation
I agree although I think we are in the minority here! I'm not a fan of these flights, they should be left to the professionals with say an organisation set up to assist those that have no other option for effective SAFE transport.
Here comes farmer Jo or local successful business owner with his private aircraft who humbly offers his time and aircraft to take these people to their hospital treatments, waits all day at the airport so he can be ready when they want to head straight back rather than wait 5 hours for the next RPT, at his personal time and expense. This is a godsend to those patients, moreso than you could possibly imagine.
Look at it from the other side of the fence and remember your roots, unless of course you came from one of those big city sausage factories.
Last edited by Squawk7700; 24th Aug 2019 at 22:33.
I spent two years ferrying my wife to hospital by car at least once a week. That was for breast cancer; chemo, surgery, radiation therapy, reconstruction, the lot. I think I can therefore speak with a little authority on this subject.
The car trip was three hours plus each way. We were lucky in that various children had spare rooms and we could afford hotels when necessary. At one stage we lived in an apartment for a month.
The overall time involved - for us was usually three days per appointment because specialists appointments cannot always fit your travel schedule. It’s one day down, then a day with the doctors and back the following day, we occasionally managed it in two days because one was not enough - six hours driving plus doctors plus peak hour traffic is a nightmare.
For Two years this was pretty much a full time job - and we were only 250kms, about three hours from Melbourne. There was barely time to look after the property between visits.
For someone living more than four hours drive away, without the financial resources we had, say trying to hold down a job or run a business, services like Angel Flight at least make treatment possible. I often wonder if the rural suicide epidemic is in part caused by the near impossibility of getting treatment, both medical and psychiatric in the bush.
The ATSB in full Marie Antoinette mode, reckons that regular airline services are a sufficient substitute, well they aren’t. Your turn around time at a city airport is at least three hours leaving and probably at least two hours arriving, plus taxis since you left your car at home, plus lots and lots of accommodation because the idea that RPT schedules and doctors appointments are ever going to synchronise is laughable. Then there is the airfare itself, perhaps airport parking, the drive to and from your nearest airport (which might also be three hours from home) not to mention the anxiety about trying to get tickets on what might be a full aircraft or changing flights at the last minute due to medical complications, not to mention the possibility of requiring treatment or special services. And this all assumes your patient is fully ambulatory to handle those half a km walks to arrival and departure. So no, the ATSB is just plain wrong.
As for “Cowboys” Angel Flight said it best; CASA trained and licensed each pilot involved and certified their aircraft. If Angel Flights are conducted by unsafe cowboys, then so is every private flight.
The car trip was three hours plus each way. We were lucky in that various children had spare rooms and we could afford hotels when necessary. At one stage we lived in an apartment for a month.
The overall time involved - for us was usually three days per appointment because specialists appointments cannot always fit your travel schedule. It’s one day down, then a day with the doctors and back the following day, we occasionally managed it in two days because one was not enough - six hours driving plus doctors plus peak hour traffic is a nightmare.
For Two years this was pretty much a full time job - and we were only 250kms, about three hours from Melbourne. There was barely time to look after the property between visits.
For someone living more than four hours drive away, without the financial resources we had, say trying to hold down a job or run a business, services like Angel Flight at least make treatment possible. I often wonder if the rural suicide epidemic is in part caused by the near impossibility of getting treatment, both medical and psychiatric in the bush.
The ATSB in full Marie Antoinette mode, reckons that regular airline services are a sufficient substitute, well they aren’t. Your turn around time at a city airport is at least three hours leaving and probably at least two hours arriving, plus taxis since you left your car at home, plus lots and lots of accommodation because the idea that RPT schedules and doctors appointments are ever going to synchronise is laughable. Then there is the airfare itself, perhaps airport parking, the drive to and from your nearest airport (which might also be three hours from home) not to mention the anxiety about trying to get tickets on what might be a full aircraft or changing flights at the last minute due to medical complications, not to mention the possibility of requiring treatment or special services. And this all assumes your patient is fully ambulatory to handle those half a km walks to arrival and departure. So no, the ATSB is just plain wrong.
As for “Cowboys” Angel Flight said it best; CASA trained and licensed each pilot involved and certified their aircraft. If Angel Flights are conducted by unsafe cowboys, then so is every private flight.
I sometimes have the shear thrill of flying Qantas, Virgin, Jetstar or Tiger between capital cities. It really is not a fun experience as you drag through those dreadful terminals, queue for check-in and security, walk km’s to/from car parks, escalators and so on. It’s a challenge for a healthy person. Then find yourself squashed next to to some great overweight unwashed buff head with a massive bag that some how is forced into the locker and who just has park his elbow in your ribs. I often think how awful that would be for AngelFlight folks, many of whom would need a to find a wheelchair or maybe in they're in middle of some unpleasant cancer treatment or perhaps trying to look after a sick, fractious child. The Angel Flight approach is seemless. Pilot hands over to Earth Angel, car might even be right next to the plane. There’s a friendly face with them all the way and they’re not dumped in one of those impersonal hostile concrete jungles.
Angel Flight is so much more than just flying. I do hope they get that bit sorted because they do a wonderful job.
There is a post above that questions what the regulator would do about road fatalities.
They (the government) would probably work out the statistics, raise awareness about the risks and what individuals should do to mitigate them, and identify particular black spots and change those.
Not dissimilar to what they have done here.
The difference is there are less likely to be a bunch or morons who argue against the recommendations.
They (the government) would probably work out the statistics, raise awareness about the risks and what individuals should do to mitigate them, and identify particular black spots and change those.
Not dissimilar to what they have done here.
The difference is there are less likely to be a bunch or morons who argue against the recommendations.
I already raised this issue. Pity you did.