A Little Gem from CASA Experts
For those who only believe what manufacturers say...
From the Textron Lycoming article “‘Experts’ Are Everywhere to Help You” (their pub number SSP700):
Having agreed that the facts are the facts - no other choice really, unless they wanted to look as stupid as some posters on PPRuNe - Lycoming went on to express this opinion: But you need proper instrumentation and GA pilots are too distracted doing other stuff to do it safely. Thousand of pilots flying aircraft with engine monitors and proper education have proved this opinion to be wrong.
From the Continental Aircraft Engine Maintenance And Operator’s Manual for Models IO-550A, B, C and G, Form X30565 FAA Approved August 1990, para 13-2:
Although there’s a range of nonsensical aspects to that recommendation, I note that the recommendation includes a setting that dare not speak its name, with my bolding.
A Lycoming publication titled “More On Cylinder Head Temperature” says this:
Let’s assume the proposition that keeping CHT below 400F is good for engine longevity. At what mixture setting will CHT be highest, all other variables unchanged:
1. 40F ROP.
2. Peak.
3. 40F LOP.
Answer: 1.
But maybe the manufacturers’ views on running engines LOP and the effects of temperature on engine longevity should be ignored, like the data?
From the Textron Lycoming article “‘Experts’ Are Everywhere to Help You” (their pub number SSP700):
... The newly discovered method of operating on the lean side of peak exhaust gas temperature has been known since Charles Lindbergh employed it to navigate the Atlantic Ocean and Max Conrad established distance records in his Comanche. This procedure was employed on large supercharged and turbocharged radial engines effectively during the era of large transport aircraft such as the Lockheed Constellation and Douglas D-6. ...
Lycoming is in complete agreement that it is possible to operate an engine on the lean side of peak TIT.[Bolding in the original.]. It is done on engines in our well-instrumented Experimental Test laboratory every day. There is nothing detrimental in operating an engine in this manner. ...
Lycoming is in complete agreement that it is possible to operate an engine on the lean side of peak TIT.[Bolding in the original.]. It is done on engines in our well-instrumented Experimental Test laboratory every day. There is nothing detrimental in operating an engine in this manner. ...
From the Continental Aircraft Engine Maintenance And Operator’s Manual for Models IO-550A, B, C and G, Form X30565 FAA Approved August 1990, para 13-2:
CRUISE CONTROL BY E.G.T.
If exhaust gas temperature indicator is used as an aid to leaning proceed as follows:
1. Adjust RPM for desired cruise setting
2. Slowly move mixture control toward “lean” while observing E.G.T. gage. Note position on the instrument where the needle “peaks” or starts to drop as mixture is leaned further.
3. The maximum recommended cruise setting is 235 BHP at 2500 RPM and 25.0 In. Hg. MAP with mixture set at 25F rich or lean of peak E.G.T. At cruise settings below 65% engine may be operated at peak E.G.T.
If exhaust gas temperature indicator is used as an aid to leaning proceed as follows:
1. Adjust RPM for desired cruise setting
2. Slowly move mixture control toward “lean” while observing E.G.T. gage. Note position on the instrument where the needle “peaks” or starts to drop as mixture is leaned further.
3. The maximum recommended cruise setting is 235 BHP at 2500 RPM and 25.0 In. Hg. MAP with mixture set at 25F rich or lean of peak E.G.T. At cruise settings below 65% engine may be operated at peak E.G.T.
A Lycoming publication titled “More On Cylinder Head Temperature” says this:
Although [the specified temperatures] are minimum and maximum limits, the pilot should operate the engine at more reasonable temperatures in order to achieve the expected overhaul life of the powerplant. In our many years of building engines, the engines have benefited during continuous operation by keeping CHT below 400F in order to achieve best life and wear of the powerplant. In general, it would be normal all year operations, in climb and cruise to see head temperatures in the range of 350F to 435F.
1. 40F ROP.
2. Peak.
3. 40F LOP.
Answer: 1.
But maybe the manufacturers’ views on running engines LOP and the effects of temperature on engine longevity should be ignored, like the data?
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear .... all this on a 1940 technology , low compression , glorified VW industrial engine !
Andrewr I wouldn't bother ... these guys have been cult members pushing this barrow for awhile .... clearly they know best and pilots have been destroying engines prematurely for 70 years...
Andrewr I wouldn't bother ... these guys have been cult members pushing this barrow for awhile .... clearly they know best and pilots have been destroying engines prematurely for 70 years...
All 4 stroke engines are very similar in that they all suck,compress, bang and blow. Inside the engine there are many variables such as stroke, valve position number and size, piston top shape and number of rings. Also there are many different internal head shapes. This lists some of the variations.
Outside the cylinder it becomes even more interesting. I guarantee the fuel and air induction system in your beloved VW is nothing like the IO520. the same applies to the ignition system.
You could be the worlds greatest expert on VW engines but that would not help you sort out why factory new IO520s run rough at lean mixture settings. The reason is quite simple and logical for those who want to learn but you must understand how that particular engine, and many like it, recieve the air and fuel.
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Adeliade
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Once again you cant answer a simple basic questions that are asked of your self. Ypu done an aps course and now ypur an instant expert on sfa. You can quote all you like thats because you dont have any knowledge at all on aircraft engines bar your skills at being able to find quotes on the net. You have zero skill level in maintaining or actually what how and why things happen within the engine and the interaction of all the components that make the engine work.
Basically your a paid up member of the aps troll net work or clut you can choose either of both as you fit both requirements.
So answer the question btw you also were one of the lot tbat didnt know the burn rate of a lean mixture before the thread was deleted strange that.
Basically your a paid up member of the aps troll net work or clut you can choose either of both as you fit both requirements.
So answer the question btw you also were one of the lot tbat didnt know the burn rate of a lean mixture before the thread was deleted strange that.
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Adeliade
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well actully it dose not increase this is a misnomer. Although the indication on some wf gauges that read px indicate a higher wf due to the higher px in the system due to the resiction.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LB
You have repeated a few times that the manufacturers recommend running the engine at the absolute worst mixture setting. But you keep overlooking the important caveat that they recommend full rich at power settings above 75% and only recommend leaning to best power at 75% or below where they have demonstrated to the FAA that the engine will not detonate with that mixture. Misrepresenting the manufacturers advice may play well with the APS audience but it does not invalidate the true recommendations of the manufacturer.
You have repeated a few times that the manufacturers recommend running the engine at the absolute worst mixture setting. But you keep overlooking the important caveat that they recommend full rich at power settings above 75% and only recommend leaning to best power at 75% or below where they have demonstrated to the FAA that the engine will not detonate with that mixture. Misrepresenting the manufacturers advice may play well with the APS audience but it does not invalidate the true recommendations of the manufacturer.
Setting the mixture to around 25C ROP is the worst setting for a piston aero-engine whatever the power setting. It will produce the highest CHT possible for that power.
Given the choice of a 74% power setting with a CHT of X and a 74% power setting with CHT less than X, I choose the latter.
Detonation is not the only thing that is detrimental to engine longevity. So is heat. The manufacturers say so.
Given the choice of a 74% power setting with a CHT of X and a 74% power setting with CHT less than X, I choose the latter.
Detonation is not the only thing that is detrimental to engine longevity. So is heat. The manufacturers say so.
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Adeliade
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LB
You have repeated a few times that the manufacturers recommend running the engine at the absolute worst mixture setting. But you keep overlooking the important caveat that they recommend full rich at power settings above 75% and only recommend leaning to best power at 75% or below where they have demonstrated to the FAA that the engine will not detonate with that mixture. Misrepresenting the manufacturers advice may play well with the APS audience but it does not invalidate the true recommendations of the manufacturer.
You have repeated a few times that the manufacturers recommend running the engine at the absolute worst mixture setting. But you keep overlooking the important caveat that they recommend full rich at power settings above 75% and only recommend leaning to best power at 75% or below where they have demonstrated to the FAA that the engine will not detonate with that mixture. Misrepresenting the manufacturers advice may play well with the APS audience but it does not invalidate the true recommendations of the manufacturer.
Thats all aps do. The convert data so it favours their own interest, example engine overhaul periods. They quote millitary hours then say but the airlines ran lop and increased the overhaul hours. This while an increase in commercial aviation often happens it was in no way related to running lop. The millitary ran lop as well. Its happening now if you purchase from the manufacturer you get more hours o your engine overhaul life.
If your say anything the bully get you banned and try and discredit. They basically are just trolls pushing their own views and they do the above if you dont follow.
And when they proven wrong and then again and again they get the whole thread to cover their tracks. They will never admit the are incorrect.
Its not your fault you were trained incorrectly. Wtf. What you think i and others dont have a brain and can think out side the square. Gid give me some credit for being able to think for my self.
So here tgh e answer go do the aps course become a complete expert.
Funning the guy running it wife works and checks thst all things are above board for the mines and overs. When he was asked if she found that an org was running lop outside of the poh would she allow her cilents to fly in that aircraft. Answer was NO.
For the record btw.
I have never said not to run lop. Check all my comments, what i have said is facts on what i know and seen as an lame with 40 years experience working daily on such aircraft.
If one aps course is greater than my 40 years experience and makes a pilot after doing it more experienced than myself ill give it away.
Yr Right, Conartist or whatever pseudonym your going under today, your arrogance is quite clear. Here is a question for you: Have you done an APS course?
It is OK I already know the answer, so here is another: if you haven’t done a course, how it it you profess to know what they teach?
I for one actually like your input here in this forum but your know all arrogance and poor grasp of the English launguage are disappointing. It is after all a pilots forum, not an engineers “I know everything” wonderwall.
It is OK I already know the answer, so here is another: if you haven’t done a course, how it it you profess to know what they teach?
I for one actually like your input here in this forum but your know all arrogance and poor grasp of the English launguage are disappointing. It is after all a pilots forum, not an engineers “I know everything” wonderwall.
Rod: Stick to tuning the piano. Leave the playing to the experts.
One of the reasons APS has detractors is that engine monitors and pilot education have exposed the variable quality of engine manufacture and maintenance.
The effort and cost it takes to get F/A mixtures balanced across cylinders shows how poorly balanced it is off the production line. Many new, certified and quality stamped cylinders need to be set up properly by the few remaining competent experts before fitment. Bushings made of cheese. Spark plug suppressors made of unicorn farts...
I can tell, on the first flight after maintenance, whether timing advance has been fiddled with and set correctly. Some engineers don’t like it when you say: “As a consequence of a change in CHTs and and in-air mag check, I can tell that you’ve advanced the timing on right magneto too far.”
Blocked injectors usually happen just after maintenance. Engineers don’t like it when you say: “The injector on 4 is blocked as a consequence of contamination introduced during your maintenance.”
One of the reasons APS has detractors is that engine monitors and pilot education have exposed the variable quality of engine manufacture and maintenance.
The effort and cost it takes to get F/A mixtures balanced across cylinders shows how poorly balanced it is off the production line. Many new, certified and quality stamped cylinders need to be set up properly by the few remaining competent experts before fitment. Bushings made of cheese. Spark plug suppressors made of unicorn farts...
I can tell, on the first flight after maintenance, whether timing advance has been fiddled with and set correctly. Some engineers don’t like it when you say: “As a consequence of a change in CHTs and and in-air mag check, I can tell that you’ve advanced the timing on right magneto too far.”
Blocked injectors usually happen just after maintenance. Engineers don’t like it when you say: “The injector on 4 is blocked as a consequence of contamination introduced during your maintenance.”
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Adeliade
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As this is a free forum leadie im free to be on tnis forum. If you dont like it please feel free to leave.
Have i done the aps course no i havent. My use of language is not the best but my knowledge is far greater than yours in regrads to aviation maintenance.
So you are saying that due to the fact i havent done the aps cult course that my qualifications and knowledge is of no use.
Please remind me of the approved aps course you obviously are suggesting i go and do..
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Adeliade
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just wondering how good some of you would be trying to fix an aircraft engine if it wasnt equipped with a engine management computer/instrument.
Just athought as 95% of ga aircraft arnt equipped with them
.
Just athought as 95% of ga aircraft arnt equipped with them
.
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Adeliade
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So once again thoose tnat are unable to prove me giving incorrect infromation go onto the personal attact mode, gee how would have thought that would happen and if i bite back they go run an hide and get me banned.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: TinselTown
Age: 45
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aps cult course that my qualifications and knowledge is of no use
So you are saying that due to the fact i havent done the aps cult course that my qualifications and knowledge is of no use.
Please remind me of the approved aps course you obviously are suggesting i go and do..
Please remind me of the approved aps course you obviously are suggesting i go and do..
Thats all aps do. The convert data so it favours their own interest, example engine overhaul periods. They quote millitary hours then say but the airlines ran lop and increased the overhaul hours. This while an increase in commercial aviation often happens it was in no way related to running lop. The millitary ran lop as well. Its happening now if you purchase from the manufacturer you get more hours o your engine overhaul life.
Your problem and the reason you get banned and keep changing your user name is that you seem to come on here to slang out other people. People have different opinions and if your only response is ridicule and contempt then it is not surprising you get banned and need a new user name.
Let's see, yr right, band a lot, con rod and more, how about a few manners and some understanding of differing opinions and you may actually get some of the respect you think you deserve.
It is over 30years since I flew an injected twin.
My flying now is in carbureted engines with no EGT indication.
I lean until rough, richen until smooth, the richen another centimetre of throttle movement or so.
What am I doing wrong?, or at least how can I improve things?
My flying now is in carbureted engines with no EGT indication.
I lean until rough, richen until smooth, the richen another centimetre of throttle movement or so.
What am I doing wrong?, or at least how can I improve things?
Your using the wrong lever - use the red one, not the black one.
One of the reasons APS has detractors is that engine monitors and pilot education have exposed the variable quality of engine manufacture and maintenance.
The effort and cost it takes to get F/A mixtures balanced across cylinders shows how poorly balanced it is off the production line. Many new, certified and quality stamped cylinders need to be set up properly by the few remaining competent experts before fitment. Bushings made of cheese. Spark plug suppressors made of unicorn farts...
I can tell, on the first flight after maintenance, whether timing advance has been fiddled with and set correctly. Some engineers don’t like it when you say: “As a consequence of a change in CHTs and and in-air mag check, I can tell that you’ve advanced the timing on right magneto too far.”
Blocked injectors usually happen just after maintenance. Engineers don’t like it when you say: “The injector on 4 is blocked as a consequence of contamination introduced during your maintenance.”
Many new, certified and quality stamped cylinders need to be set up properly by the few remaining competent experts before fitment. Bushings made of cheese. Spark plug suppressors made of unicorn farts...
Can you explain what is set up before fitment?
I can tell, on the first flight after maintenance, whether timing advance has been fiddled with and set correctly. Some engineers don’t like it when you say: “As a consequence of a change in CHTs and and in-air mag check, I can tell that you’ve advanced the timing on right magneto too far.”
Is within tolerance too far? If my memory serves me correctly there is a tolerance of magneto to engine timing and also a tolerance of the internal magneto timing and considering there are two units - the total variation can be rather large, but certainly not defiantly "too far". In my honest opinion I believe you can not tell what you stated above, but that there is a change in indication most likely cause by a timing adjustment.
Blocked injectors usually happen just after maintenance. Engineers don’t like it when you say: “The injector on 4 is blocked as a consequence of contamination introduced during your maintenance.
I have known far more injectors to become blocked between servicing than just after maintenance, probably a ratio of 10 or 20 to 1!
Now if the nozzle has become blocked due to maintenance, it would be because the nozzle has been removed - just a random guess unless you have filter less aircraft and flow divider. Simply request at your expense to have the stainless fuel supply lines removed and cleaned when nozzles are removed if it is a common event for you.
A response to another post about LAME's dropping Spark Plugs - often that HT lead end ceramic breaks out in full, not seen it crack the other end.
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Adeliade
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So bob
Its ok to have a dig at myself and i can include yourself in that. But if i have a go back thats not ok. And if you take the time to actully look at what is said about me its a dam site worse than what i have ever said. Btw im never been bend a lot or band a lot for the record.
As for comments about the aps course ive been going on what has been posted on this forum and tne lies that have been quoted on here by aps. So if anyone to blame about comments ive made please quote correct statements that arnt lies miss truths etc, then there will not be any thing to comment about. But if lies incorrect statements or miss truths are quoted expect to be quized and pulled up about them. How about that. And maybe we will not have another thread removed because they been wrong.
Its ok to have a dig at myself and i can include yourself in that. But if i have a go back thats not ok. And if you take the time to actully look at what is said about me its a dam site worse than what i have ever said. Btw im never been bend a lot or band a lot for the record.
As for comments about the aps course ive been going on what has been posted on this forum and tne lies that have been quoted on here by aps. So if anyone to blame about comments ive made please quote correct statements that arnt lies miss truths etc, then there will not be any thing to comment about. But if lies incorrect statements or miss truths are quoted expect to be quized and pulled up about them. How about that. And maybe we will not have another thread removed because they been wrong.
FYI.
TCM IO520 engine - magnetoto engine timing 20 degrees BTC +/- 1 degree.
Bendix 1200 - E gap timing 15 degrees +/- 2 degrees
Bendix 1200 - points gap 0.016 +/- 0.003 thou.
Champion - RHB32E gap 0.016 - 0.021.
So one magneto can be 19 deg TDC, E gap 13 deg, point gap 0.013& spark plug gap 0.016.
The other mag 21 deg TDC, E gap 17 deg, point gap 0.019& plug gap 0.021.
TCM IO520 engine - magnetoto engine timing 20 degrees BTC +/- 1 degree.
Bendix 1200 - E gap timing 15 degrees +/- 2 degrees
Bendix 1200 - points gap 0.016 +/- 0.003 thou.
Champion - RHB32E gap 0.016 - 0.021.
So one magneto can be 19 deg TDC, E gap 13 deg, point gap 0.013& spark plug gap 0.016.
The other mag 21 deg TDC, E gap 17 deg, point gap 0.019& plug gap 0.021.