A Little Gem from CASA Experts
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FYI.
TCM IO520 engine - magnetoto engine timing 20 degrees BTC +/- 1 degree.
Bendix 1200 - E gap timing 15 degrees +/- 2 degrees
Bendix 1200 - points gap 0.016 +/- 0.003 thou.
Champion - RHB32E gap 0.016 - 0.021.
So one magneto can be 19 deg TDC, E gap 13 deg, point gap 0.013& spark plug gap 0.016.
The other mag 21 deg TDC, E gap 17 deg, point gap 0.019& plug gap 0.021.
TCM IO520 engine - magnetoto engine timing 20 degrees BTC +/- 1 degree.
Bendix 1200 - E gap timing 15 degrees +/- 2 degrees
Bendix 1200 - points gap 0.016 +/- 0.003 thou.
Champion - RHB32E gap 0.016 - 0.021.
So one magneto can be 19 deg TDC, E gap 13 deg, point gap 0.013& spark plug gap 0.016.
The other mag 21 deg TDC, E gap 17 deg, point gap 0.019& plug gap 0.021.
Cont for some time now fit their engines with matched nozzles as stanard.
I laugh on pages on this forum the expects dont even know how the magnetos actually work. But they coment its a degree out. I wonder how good they be with out that instrument on their low power tractor engine.
When someone ask why leadie dosnt change maintenance facilities i tnink that answer is quite obvious.
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Could you identify the posters who fly other people's aircraft? For my part, it's my engine. My life depends on it.
So why have my engines gone hundreds of hours past TBO when run on "interesting theories" rather than your evidently scientifically-based "55% power setting and slightly rich"?
Oggers mentioned certification. My engine is certified to run at maximum rated power, continuously, to TBO.
The FYI above was to highlight the great allowable variation in engine timing that is not "too far advanced"
The adjustable variables above will shift those little bars around a lot on that round gauge.
But to make the statement implying the LAME has timed the engine wrong is made by an uneducated person on such topic, but happily bags out maintenance staff.
My opinion of the engine monitoring systems and balanced or Gammi injectors is they are great, but not always useful.
* In trouble shooting - they may isolate a cylinder but many times via wiring error be the wrong cylinder.
* They do not in any way shape or form indicate anything other than temperature of a cylinder - not a reason why it is different to others by a small or large amount.
* Extend an engine TBO. They have zero effect on wear on cams and con rod bearings also little to no effect on cylinder wall and valve wear. A top overhaul with new cylinders will give a better break down report for engine extensions than anything else.
But for private ops and on condition engines they can save the owner/s lots on fuel and reduce cylinder related maintenance costs. Just don't tell me the timing was too far advanced unless you can prove it is!
The adjustable variables above will shift those little bars around a lot on that round gauge.
But to make the statement implying the LAME has timed the engine wrong is made by an uneducated person on such topic, but happily bags out maintenance staff.
My opinion of the engine monitoring systems and balanced or Gammi injectors is they are great, but not always useful.
* In trouble shooting - they may isolate a cylinder but many times via wiring error be the wrong cylinder.
* They do not in any way shape or form indicate anything other than temperature of a cylinder - not a reason why it is different to others by a small or large amount.
* Extend an engine TBO. They have zero effect on wear on cams and con rod bearings also little to no effect on cylinder wall and valve wear. A top overhaul with new cylinders will give a better break down report for engine extensions than anything else.
But for private ops and on condition engines they can save the owner/s lots on fuel and reduce cylinder related maintenance costs. Just don't tell me the timing was too far advanced unless you can prove it is!
LB: Many new, certified and quality stamped cylinders need to be set up properly by the few remaining competent experts before fitment. Bushings made of cheese. Spark plug suppressors made of unicorn farts...
BAL: Can you explain what is set up before fitment?
BAL: Can you explain what is set up before fitment?
If you are drawing a distinction between before and after fitment and I got that wrong, well done! It proves nothing I say is true and there is no problem with quality control.
LB: I can tell, on the first flight after maintenance, whether timing advance has been fiddled with and set correctly. Some engineers don’t like it when you say: “As a consequence of a change in CHTs and and in-air mag check, I can tell that you’ve advanced the timing on right magneto too far.”
BAL: Is within tolerance too far? If my memory serves me correctly there is a tolerance of magneto to engine timing and also a tolerance of the internal magneto timing and considering there are two units - the total variation can be rather large, but certainly not defiantly "too far". In my honest opinion I believe you can not tell what you stated above, but that there is a change in indication most likely cause by a timing adjustment.
BAL: Is within tolerance too far? If my memory serves me correctly there is a tolerance of magneto to engine timing and also a tolerance of the internal magneto timing and considering there are two units - the total variation can be rather large, but certainly not defiantly "too far". In my honest opinion I believe you can not tell what you stated above, but that there is a change in indication most likely cause by a timing adjustment.
“In my honest opinion I believe you can not tell what you stated above, but that there is a change in indication most likely cause by timing adjustment”. It just goes to show that you have zero experience as a pilot flying behind these engines.
Out of maintenance the CHTs were 15C higher on climb-out than normal. That put CHTs above that magic number Lycoming got about right in the information I quoted earlier. A temperature I’d never been before. Mag check shows all plugs working but big differences between mags.
The timing of one of the mags had been advanced too far (and out of tolerance - 25 degrees instead of 22). The engineer probably used a mechanical protractor rather than the accurate equipment used by the Timing Fairy to confirm the problem.
For your education, the reason advancing the timing increases CHT is because in reduces thetaPPP - i.e. brings the peak pressure point closer to top dead centre. A bit like leaning the mixture to 25C ROP.
LB: Blocked injectors usually happen just after maintenance. Engineers don’t like it when you say: “The injector on 4 is blocked as a consequence of contamination introduced during your maintenance.
BAL: I have known far more injectors to become blocked between servicing than just after maintenance, probably a ratio of 10 or 20 to 1!
Now if the nozzle has become blocked due to maintenance, it would be because the nozzle has been removed - just a random guess unless you have filter less aircraft and flow divider. Simply request at your expense to have the stainless fuel supply lines removed and cleaned when nozzles are removed if it is a common event for you.
BAL: I have known far more injectors to become blocked between servicing than just after maintenance, probably a ratio of 10 or 20 to 1!
Now if the nozzle has become blocked due to maintenance, it would be because the nozzle has been removed - just a random guess unless you have filter less aircraft and flow divider. Simply request at your expense to have the stainless fuel supply lines removed and cleaned when nozzles are removed if it is a common event for you.
I’m talking about the experience across thousands of aircraft. Yours is a very small sample.
“Now if the nozzle has become blocked due to maintenance, it would be because the nozzle has been removed - just a random guess...”. Brilliant guess.
“Simply request at your expense to have the stainless fuel supply lines removed and cleaned when nozzles are removed...”. Spoken like a true engineer! Your fiddling (for which I’m paying) introduces the crud that causes the defect, and your solution is to ‘up-sell’ more fiddling.
I think I’ve mentioned this in other threads. I would offer various engineers many thousands of dollars not to inflict a range of counter-productive maintenance on my aircraft, if I weren’t committing what’s probably a crime under the civil aviation law. Bleeding money to reduce risk is better than bleeding money to buy risk.
Just as a matter of interest, have you ever seen any engine or engine component that’s ‘new’ or out of overhaul that’s had a defect? Just once? Or are you observing perfection?
Have you ever made a mistake during maintenance that wasn’t picked up and ended up causing an in-air problem. Just once? Or have you achieved perfection?
I’ve made a number of mistakes during maintenance that weren’t picked up and ended up causing an in-air problem. When you’ve worked at it for a long time and you’re not perfect, it’s bound to happen occasionally. That’s why I know what really goes on inside maintenance hangars. But it’s also why I don’t rain down legal hellfire and brimstone every time one of these mistakes is made on my aircraft. I could do it, but I empathise with the people who’ve made the mistakes.
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Well, frankly, not much. Gann also believed in the myth of getting an airplane "One the step". His tale of south American mechanics sabotaging his airplane by putting water in the oil, which resulted in (according to him) the steam pressure blowing the oil filler caps off of his oil tanks is indicative of an embarrassing lack of systems knowledge.
Gann was a great story teller, but not particularly knowledgeable about technical matters.
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Quite correct
However, nobody here (from old-school lame to APS expert) seems to want to tell me what to do with the red lever if I don’t have an EGT gauge on a carburetted engine!
You know, like probably 75% of GA aircraft! (Unless they have improved remarkably in the last few years)
However, nobody here (from old-school lame to APS expert) seems to want to tell me what to do with the red lever if I don’t have an EGT gauge on a carburetted engine!
You know, like probably 75% of GA aircraft! (Unless they have improved remarkably in the last few years)
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Quite correct
However, nobody here (from old-school lame to APS expert) seems to want to tell me what to do with the red lever if I don’t have an EGT gauge on a carburetted engine!
You know, like probably 75% of GA aircraft! (Unless they have improved remarkably in the last few years)
However, nobody here (from old-school lame to APS expert) seems to want to tell me what to do with the red lever if I don’t have an EGT gauge on a carburetted engine!
You know, like probably 75% of GA aircraft! (Unless they have improved remarkably in the last few years)
The question is whether running lean at high power will cause detonation. The hard facts are the manufacturer has demonstrated to the certifying authority that the engine does not detonate at the recommended power and mixture settings. At some point above those power settings the engine will begin to detonate if you lean far enough. And yes, I do know that if you lean even further it may stop detonating, but that is because the power would begin to drop again.
All mixtures are ‘lean’.
Running 25C rich of peak is ‘leaner’ than running 100C rich of peak.
Running 25C rich of of peak at high power is more likely to cause detonation than running 25C lean of peak at high power.
THAT IS WHY THE CAUSAL CONNECTION BETWEEN DETONATION AND LEAN OF PEAK OPERATIONS DRAWN BY THE AWB IS UTTER BOLLOCKS. The mixture settings that will always create the greatest risk of detonation are rich of peak.
Do you know what mixture settings were used on the Whyalla Airlines aircraft?
Your engine is NOT certified to make TBO at any setting.
My engine is certified to run at maximum rated power, continuously, to TBO.
You need to understand (or forgot to note) the meaning of “maximum rated power”.
I could, if I were stupid enough, drag more than the maximum rated power out of my engine by leaning the mixture to around 25C rich of peak after take off at sea level on an ISA day with full throttle and maximum RPM. However, I’m not that stupid.
And as I said, contemporary measurements show that some certified engines detonate at recommended power and mixture settings.
Just as a matter of interest for those who haven't looked at the website, these are the credentials for the "staff" of APS.
BTW LB APS offer online courses so would you be willing to pay for andrewr to sign up for that?
...a retired JAL 747 Captain with over 39,000 flight hours. He holds the ATP, CFII, and MEI, Instructor Certificates and has extensive radial and flat engine experience. He has flown everything from Piper Colts in South America to WWII war birds. He flew for Air America in the 60's and wrote a monthly column for AvWeb. John has done all the flying we dreamed of doing, although he downplays it as "having just survived." He was a Commemorative Air Force pilot on the C-46, B-24, B-29, T-6, Bearcat and Zero. He owned a V-tail Bonanza with GAMIjector set #1......
....passion for aviation began in high school but her flight training was delayed by college basketball, marriage, and raising a family. After her two-decade delay, she attended APS as a student pilot and realized her life-long passion a short time later. She joined APS in 2008 and has flown a variety of GA aircraft. She owns a Bonanza and a C-170 and routinely cruises her carbureted Cessna LOP. While a ski instructor on Vail Mountain, she awoke one morning and said, "No more snow. Let's find an aviation community somewhere warm and move.".....
....is a retired general dentist with over 4700 hours flight time. He holds the ATP, CFII, MEI, and A&P Certificates and is a published author of novels and professional articles on dentistry and aviation. Walter did his first landings in a C-172 on the beach at Chandelier Island south of Gulfport, MS, and has had a Bush Pilot mentality ever since. He has been a Commemorative Air Force pilot on the C-46, C-47, and B-24 and has radial and flat engine experience. He had GAMIjector set #3 on his Bonanza and is now the current owner of a 1969 E33A Bonanza.
....passion for aviation began in high school but her flight training was delayed by college basketball, marriage, and raising a family. After her two-decade delay, she attended APS as a student pilot and realized her life-long passion a short time later. She joined APS in 2008 and has flown a variety of GA aircraft. She owns a Bonanza and a C-170 and routinely cruises her carbureted Cessna LOP. While a ski instructor on Vail Mountain, she awoke one morning and said, "No more snow. Let's find an aviation community somewhere warm and move.".....
....is a retired general dentist with over 4700 hours flight time. He holds the ATP, CFII, MEI, and A&P Certificates and is a published author of novels and professional articles on dentistry and aviation. Walter did his first landings in a C-172 on the beach at Chandelier Island south of Gulfport, MS, and has had a Bush Pilot mentality ever since. He has been a Commemorative Air Force pilot on the C-46, C-47, and B-24 and has radial and flat engine experience. He had GAMIjector set #3 on his Bonanza and is now the current owner of a 1969 E33A Bonanza.
** = my reply
What I know is that there are an increasing number of valve guide problems with Continental cylinders, whether they’re on ‘new’ or overhauled engines. An increasing number of frustrated owners take their ‘new’ or overhauled engine to experts who have a process using Prussian Blue to get the correct print on the valve stem tip. Those experts are increasingly frustrated at the ‘quality’ of what they are seeing.
** Yes certainly some years ago there was massive TCM cylinder issues, closely followed by Superior and from memory a bit latter Lycoming too - but in recent years say last 4 or 5 nothing, but I am not current.
If you are drawing a distinction between before and after fitment and I got that wrong, well done! It proves nothing I say is true and there is no problem with quality control.
** Yes was confused as your fitment comment - yes all cylinder manufactures and engine manufactures have had quality issues over the years.
Is within tolerance too far? Errrm, I’ll make a wild guess and say within tolerance is not too far.
“In my honest opinion I believe you can not tell what you stated above, but that there is a change in indication most likely cause by timing adjustment”. It just goes to show that you have zero experience as a pilot flying behind these engines.
Out of maintenance the CHTs were 15C higher on climb-out than normal. That put CHTs above that magic number Lycoming got about right in the information I quoted earlier. A temperature I’d never been before. Mag check shows all plugs working but big differences between mags.
** I have not closely followed this thread but thought we were talking TCM IO520 - my fault but again not current with your engine.
The timing of one of the mags had been advanced too far (and out of tolerance - 25 degrees instead of 22). The engineer probably used a mechanical protractor rather than the accurate equipment used by the Timing Fairy to confirm the problem.
** Interested as to your knowing the 25 degrees and not 22, did they allow you to be present? Normally owners/pilots are not allowed to oversee such work in many places (that just an interest question). I personally have never seen a mechanical protractor in about 35 years and a number of countries. There was the plate on the pulley on the rear of IO520 TCM that had timing marks but that was removed years back. If it is a Lyco it would be the line on the fly wheel matched to the dot on the starter. This can be hard due propeller blade and cowling arrangements on some craft.
For your education, the reason advancing the timing increases CHT is because in reduces thetaPPP - i.e. brings the peak pressure point closer to top dead centre. A bit like leaning the mixture to 25C ROP.
** that can be changed by spark plug gap and E gap timing.
Yours is very small sample.
I’m talking about the experience across thousands of aircraft. Yours is a very small sample.
** Correct I have only worked on a thousand or so piston aircraft tail numbers
“Now if the nozzle has become blocked due to maintenance, it would be because the nozzle has been removed - just a random guess...”. Brilliant guess.
“Simply request at your expense to have the stainless fuel supply lines removed and cleaned when nozzles are removed...”. Spoken like a true engineer! Your fiddling (for which I’m paying) introduces the crud that causes the defect, and your solution is to ‘up-sell’ more fiddling.
I think I’ve mentioned this in other threads. I would offer various engineers many thousands of dollars not to inflict a range of counter-productive maintenance on my aircraft, if I weren’t committing what’s probably a crime under the civil aviation law. Bleeding money to reduce risk is better than bleeding money to buy risk.
** Think fuel nozzle cleaning on TCM was called up at 3 or 500 hour intervals - just apply to CASA for a dispensation. Will send bank details later.
Just as a matter of interest, have you ever seen any engine or engine component that’s ‘new’ or out of overhaul that’s had a defect? Just once? Or are you observing perfection?
** Yes plenty.
Have you ever made a mistake during maintenance that wasn’t picked up and ended up causing an in-air problem. Just once? Or have you achieved perfection?
** A reverse elevator trim due twisted cable - Darwin around 1995 on a C206 a nose gear issue on a 210. There are others but very minor.
I’ve made a number of mistakes during maintenance that weren’t picked up and ended up causing an in-air problem. When you’ve worked at it for a long time and you’re not perfect, it’s bound to happen occasionally. That’s why I know what really goes on inside maintenance hangars. But it’s also why I don’t rain down legal hellfire and brimstone every time one of these mistakes is made on my aircraft. I could do it, but I empathise with the people who’ve made the mistakes.
** I assume since 1985 counts as a long time?
What I know is that there are an increasing number of valve guide problems with Continental cylinders, whether they’re on ‘new’ or overhauled engines. An increasing number of frustrated owners take their ‘new’ or overhauled engine to experts who have a process using Prussian Blue to get the correct print on the valve stem tip. Those experts are increasingly frustrated at the ‘quality’ of what they are seeing.
** Yes certainly some years ago there was massive TCM cylinder issues, closely followed by Superior and from memory a bit latter Lycoming too - but in recent years say last 4 or 5 nothing, but I am not current.
If you are drawing a distinction between before and after fitment and I got that wrong, well done! It proves nothing I say is true and there is no problem with quality control.
** Yes was confused as your fitment comment - yes all cylinder manufactures and engine manufactures have had quality issues over the years.
Is within tolerance too far? Errrm, I’ll make a wild guess and say within tolerance is not too far.
“In my honest opinion I believe you can not tell what you stated above, but that there is a change in indication most likely cause by timing adjustment”. It just goes to show that you have zero experience as a pilot flying behind these engines.
Out of maintenance the CHTs were 15C higher on climb-out than normal. That put CHTs above that magic number Lycoming got about right in the information I quoted earlier. A temperature I’d never been before. Mag check shows all plugs working but big differences between mags.
** I have not closely followed this thread but thought we were talking TCM IO520 - my fault but again not current with your engine.
The timing of one of the mags had been advanced too far (and out of tolerance - 25 degrees instead of 22). The engineer probably used a mechanical protractor rather than the accurate equipment used by the Timing Fairy to confirm the problem.
** Interested as to your knowing the 25 degrees and not 22, did they allow you to be present? Normally owners/pilots are not allowed to oversee such work in many places (that just an interest question). I personally have never seen a mechanical protractor in about 35 years and a number of countries. There was the plate on the pulley on the rear of IO520 TCM that had timing marks but that was removed years back. If it is a Lyco it would be the line on the fly wheel matched to the dot on the starter. This can be hard due propeller blade and cowling arrangements on some craft.
For your education, the reason advancing the timing increases CHT is because in reduces thetaPPP - i.e. brings the peak pressure point closer to top dead centre. A bit like leaning the mixture to 25C ROP.
** that can be changed by spark plug gap and E gap timing.
Yours is very small sample.
I’m talking about the experience across thousands of aircraft. Yours is a very small sample.
** Correct I have only worked on a thousand or so piston aircraft tail numbers
“Now if the nozzle has become blocked due to maintenance, it would be because the nozzle has been removed - just a random guess...”. Brilliant guess.
“Simply request at your expense to have the stainless fuel supply lines removed and cleaned when nozzles are removed...”. Spoken like a true engineer! Your fiddling (for which I’m paying) introduces the crud that causes the defect, and your solution is to ‘up-sell’ more fiddling.
I think I’ve mentioned this in other threads. I would offer various engineers many thousands of dollars not to inflict a range of counter-productive maintenance on my aircraft, if I weren’t committing what’s probably a crime under the civil aviation law. Bleeding money to reduce risk is better than bleeding money to buy risk.
** Think fuel nozzle cleaning on TCM was called up at 3 or 500 hour intervals - just apply to CASA for a dispensation. Will send bank details later.
Just as a matter of interest, have you ever seen any engine or engine component that’s ‘new’ or out of overhaul that’s had a defect? Just once? Or are you observing perfection?
** Yes plenty.
Have you ever made a mistake during maintenance that wasn’t picked up and ended up causing an in-air problem. Just once? Or have you achieved perfection?
** A reverse elevator trim due twisted cable - Darwin around 1995 on a C206 a nose gear issue on a 210. There are others but very minor.
I’ve made a number of mistakes during maintenance that weren’t picked up and ended up causing an in-air problem. When you’ve worked at it for a long time and you’re not perfect, it’s bound to happen occasionally. That’s why I know what really goes on inside maintenance hangars. But it’s also why I don’t rain down legal hellfire and brimstone every time one of these mistakes is made on my aircraft. I could do it, but I empathise with the people who’ve made the mistakes.
** I assume since 1985 counts as a long time?
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Normally owners/pilots are not allowed to oversee such work in many places...
I told you how I knew the magneto to engine advance: The Timing Fairy told me.
This is your cue to say the problem never happened. And are you sure about your 20 degree +/- 1 BTC magneto to engine figure for all IO520s? Really sure?
And we all know why that is, don’t we.
I told you how I knew the magneto to engine advance: The Timing Fairy told me. This is your cue to say the problem never happened.
And are you sure about your 20 degree +/- 1 BTC magneto to engine figure for all IO520s? Really sure?
I told you how I knew the magneto to engine advance: The Timing Fairy told me.
This is your cue to say the problem never happened. And are you sure about your 20 degree +/- 1 BTC magneto to engine figure for all IO520s? Really sure?
You certainly are a operator I would not like to want to need - believing in fairy's and all.
Most workshops don't allow persons that are not staff in them, think mostly that the believe in mechanical protractor devices used on engine timing.
So talk straight to me or bugger off - I don't care.
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And are you sure about your 20 degree +/- 1 BTC magneto to engine figure for all IO520s?
Although LB you may consider the whole MSB documentation old wives tales, and only to be followed if one feels like it.
And we all know why that is, don’t we.
Last edited by Eddie Dean; 8th Apr 2018 at 10:38. Reason: Thus this
Band and Rod, meet Eddie.
Eddie knows what he’s talking about, at least in so far as the magneto to engine advance setting on an IO520 is concerned.
Heck: I think it’s even stamped on a plate riveted to the crankcase...
Edited because Eddie edited his:
No Eddie. I don’t consider the “whole MSB documentation old wives tales”. I only consider the bits that are old wives’ tales to be old wives’ tales. By the way, do you know why TCM issued an MSB specifying that the magneto to engine advance be changed from 20 to 22 on IO520s?
I’d be more than happy to stay and watch at $130 an hour, because it would get done more efficiently, correctly and at less cost than at $100 an hour.
Eddie knows what he’s talking about, at least in so far as the magneto to engine advance setting on an IO520 is concerned.
Heck: I think it’s even stamped on a plate riveted to the crankcase...
Edited because Eddie edited his:
No Eddie. I don’t consider the “whole MSB documentation old wives tales”. I only consider the bits that are old wives’ tales to be old wives’ tales. By the way, do you know why TCM issued an MSB specifying that the magneto to engine advance be changed from 20 to 22 on IO520s?
I’d be more than happy to stay and watch at $130 an hour, because it would get done more efficiently, correctly and at less cost than at $100 an hour.
Last edited by Lead Balloon; 8th Apr 2018 at 11:23.
I just gave you 2 examples from his writing of badly flawed technical knowledge.
"Stamped" well it is a Chinese fake then!
Happy to discuss any maintenance stuff with Eddie or Rod or yourself, but keep it factual not fairy based assumptions of a short course watching a gauge! any corrosion on joints corrections for your gauge readings?
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Ffs a timerite is only one of many ways to time a mag. Wtf would you know what when ive done them,
How about practice what you prech and let thoose that know do their jobs while you go get some piano lessons.
And whist useing a time rite getting tdc to set it up still leaves a possiblity for an inaccurate setting. Btw the only way to do mags on a radial is ? Btw trick ? This sort some out
Its also noted know one has answered the questions ive as or old leadie cause he cant.