NT C210
I don't know about others here, but I find myself increasingly worried by the Aircraft we fly in GA. I'm lucky to be part of an organisation that has exceptional Maintenance but the fact is that we're still flying 30-40 year old aircraft, looking beyond just the physical age it worries me to think over the 15-20,000+ hrs some of these Aircraft have flown, just what sort of abuse they've taken at the hands of Pilots who weren't taught correctly, didn't care, just got into a bad situation and then even the normal wear/tear/fatigue that comes with such advanced age and it honestly scares me these days.
To all the GA Pilots out there reading this, I urge you to be extra cautious, remember that the Speeds and Figures you've got in your POH/AFM were from Brand new aircraft many decades ago, give it some fudge factor when appropriate and be far less inclined to take them into weather and situations that others once thought nothing of a long time ago. Maintenance organisations do the best they can but are often under the pump themselves just like we are and there's only so much that can be inspected.
Be careful out there boys and girls, none of us are paid enough money to give our lives, nor is the act of transporting anything or anyone generally worth it either (Outside emergency services, RFDS and the likes from time to time)
To all the GA Pilots out there reading this, I urge you to be extra cautious, remember that the Speeds and Figures you've got in your POH/AFM were from Brand new aircraft many decades ago, give it some fudge factor when appropriate and be far less inclined to take them into weather and situations that others once thought nothing of a long time ago. Maintenance organisations do the best they can but are often under the pump themselves just like we are and there's only so much that can be inspected.
Be careful out there boys and girls, none of us are paid enough money to give our lives, nor is the act of transporting anything or anyone generally worth it either (Outside emergency services, RFDS and the likes from time to time)
Sound words Ixixly.
I can't see any airframe time mentioned in the preliminary report though the fact that both wings failed suggest to me that the issue were not related to hours on the airframe or maintenance. Likely WX related.
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I can't see any airframe time mentioned in the preliminary report though the fact that both wings failed suggest to me that the issue were not related to hours on the airframe or maintenance. Likely WX related.
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Agreed Flying Binghi, should have been clearer that I don't believe that Airframe Fatigue played a pivotal part in this incident, from the report it certainly seems like it just ended up Over-stressed in a CB.
But the age and hours wouldn't have helped either in my mind and anytime I'm flying in IMC these days it's a thought that crosses my mind or whenever someone tells me a story of that horrendous storm they went through in the same Aircraft. It's enough to remind me that without a WX Radar you just can't really know what's sitting inside those clouds once you're in and as others have pointed out, even with one you can't be 100% and I don't want to be the one that finds out about that crack that's been forming for the last 10 years in an unseen corner of a wing.
But the age and hours wouldn't have helped either in my mind and anytime I'm flying in IMC these days it's a thought that crosses my mind or whenever someone tells me a story of that horrendous storm they went through in the same Aircraft. It's enough to remind me that without a WX Radar you just can't really know what's sitting inside those clouds once you're in and as others have pointed out, even with one you can't be 100% and I don't want to be the one that finds out about that crack that's been forming for the last 10 years in an unseen corner of a wing.
The aircraft were old 20 years ago..... imagine getting in a Holden HQ uber? Sorry a Ford Fairlane 1983, hang on no chance...
There are new aircraft out there, but not at a cost that Aussie GA can afford, but then again what is a C210 replacement?
Good luck to those venturing north to gain hours, respect is due your way, it’s not given but it’s due. Yes you would take a RHS in a shinny Jet tomorrow if you could but you don’t have that opportunity so you have to build experience. Fly for dodgy Operators, fly for great Operators, all experience.
This young fella was having a crack, we will never know why you got into the position you were, but as has been said fark it musta been tough. You had the balls you gave aviation a crack. Now your up there with the many others that have walked this line not only in the NT but around the globe.
As my name says we are Global Aviators.
Remember that and always help each other!!!
There are new aircraft out there, but not at a cost that Aussie GA can afford, but then again what is a C210 replacement?
Good luck to those venturing north to gain hours, respect is due your way, it’s not given but it’s due. Yes you would take a RHS in a shinny Jet tomorrow if you could but you don’t have that opportunity so you have to build experience. Fly for dodgy Operators, fly for great Operators, all experience.
This young fella was having a crack, we will never know why you got into the position you were, but as has been said fark it musta been tough. You had the balls you gave aviation a crack. Now your up there with the many others that have walked this line not only in the NT but around the globe.
As my name says we are Global Aviators.
Remember that and always help each other!!!
Last edited by Global Aviator; 14th Dec 2017 at 14:12. Reason: Finished my whiskey and needed another.
Gives me the chills seeing those pics.
The 210 is a wonderful bird, but you had to be aware of its limitations. If you ever get yourself in a bind, slow down and extend the gear. She’s a 172 at that point.
The 210 is a wonderful bird, but you had to be aware of its limitations. If you ever get yourself in a bind, slow down and extend the gear. She’s a 172 at that point.
Maybe CASA should take the approach that the Indonesian DGAC have done, ban all commercial passengers operations in old aircraft. Not sure exactly what their regulations state, however it’s modernised their commercial fleets which has had a huge positive impact on improving aviation safety.
Are we still going to be flying around in 60 plus year old aircraft in 20 years time? The travelling public deserve better.
Are we still going to be flying around in 60 plus year old aircraft in 20 years time? The travelling public deserve better.
That radar track and R/T transcript is very interesting, but could have been a lot better if combined with the BOM Wx radar images of the same time interval.
Whatever weather the two pilots actually saw on departure from DN, it wouldn't have looked any better by trying to climb over it. NT and tropic weather is mostly cumuliform which means you can fly around it or around the rain falling out of it, and in fact outmaneuver it since you are 10 times faster than the weather in a C210. Visibility is a lot better looking under it along track than trying to climb to 10,000' then trying to weave along between the +15,000' tops that blind your actual view along track.
That is really the basics of flying in the Top End during Build Up or the Wet, and I can't understand how these guys were not trained in that or put it into practise. I've flown this exact same planned route a lot (a lot), and never once would I have considered tracking NW to enable a climb of any kind, if all I had to do was head east at 1500' and avoid the black scungey stuff.
Whatever weather the two pilots actually saw on departure from DN, it wouldn't have looked any better by trying to climb over it. NT and tropic weather is mostly cumuliform which means you can fly around it or around the rain falling out of it, and in fact outmaneuver it since you are 10 times faster than the weather in a C210. Visibility is a lot better looking under it along track than trying to climb to 10,000' then trying to weave along between the +15,000' tops that blind your actual view along track.
That is really the basics of flying in the Top End during Build Up or the Wet, and I can't understand how these guys were not trained in that or put it into practise. I've flown this exact same planned route a lot (a lot), and never once would I have considered tracking NW to enable a climb of any kind, if all I had to do was head east at 1500' and avoid the black scungey stuff.
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Lets be honest here. The aircraft didnt fail. The pilots failed the aircraft.
Even if this aircraft was brand new and the aircraft faced with what happened in this accident the out come would be the same.
Even if this aircraft was brand new and the aircraft faced with what happened in this accident the out come would be the same.
Agree, it seems to be flown beyond known flight limits that will result in personal injury or death if exceeded, with or without being on medication or having/or not having struts of new or old age irrespective of hours flown on such struts.
If it had a WX radar or some kind of storm scope in it and the pilots knew how to use it, would have this accident occurred?
Having inadvertently flown into big CBs in bigger aeroplanes with WX radar and being IFR with 2 pilots I very quickly learnt that if I was going up in the vertical convection, I was eventually going to be spat out the other side and be thrown down at a great ROD that in some cases I had no control of, and visa versa. Only way to control the aeroplane in an inadvertent entry into a CB is firstly recognise that you are in a CB and then take your hands and feet off everything or disengage the AP if you’ve got one and sit back and ride it out and be ready for when you get thrown out.
Don’t understand what you’re talking about Wawa, a cumuliform cloud looks a lot different to a CB (or a developing or dissapating CB).
The wet season hasn’t even started yet up North, take care everyone.
Having inadvertently flown into big CBs in bigger aeroplanes with WX radar and being IFR with 2 pilots I very quickly learnt that if I was going up in the vertical convection, I was eventually going to be spat out the other side and be thrown down at a great ROD that in some cases I had no control of, and visa versa. Only way to control the aeroplane in an inadvertent entry into a CB is firstly recognise that you are in a CB and then take your hands and feet off everything or disengage the AP if you’ve got one and sit back and ride it out and be ready for when you get thrown out.
Don’t understand what you’re talking about Wawa, a cumuliform cloud looks a lot different to a CB (or a developing or dissapating CB).
The wet season hasn’t even started yet up North, take care everyone.
Last edited by Duck Pilot; 17th Dec 2017 at 09:05.
Duck Pilot;9992984]If it had a WX radar or some kind of storm scope in it and the pilots knew how to use it, would have this accident occurred?
**** Can anyone name a 210 with charter Ops in the NT with radar? or a storm scope of any merit in this or most cases that help in a case such as this?
Having inadvertently flown into big CBs in bigger aeroplanes with WX radar and being IFR with 2 pilots I very quickly learnt that if I was going up in the vertical convection, I was eventually going to be spat out the other side and be thrown down at a great ROD that in some cases I had no control of, and visa versa. Only way to control the aeroplane in an inadvertent entry into a CB is firstly recognise that you are in a CB and then take your hands and feet off everything or disengage the AP if you’ve got one and sit back and ride it out and be ready for when you get thrown out.
****** Christ - I need to void inadvertently flying with you ever!
Don’t understand what you’re talking about Wawa, a cumuliform cloud looks a lot different to a CB (or a developing or dissapating CB).
The wet season hasn’t even started yet up North, take care everyone
****** and careful from whom you take advise and navigate via Hecter.
**** Can anyone name a 210 with charter Ops in the NT with radar? or a storm scope of any merit in this or most cases that help in a case such as this?
Having inadvertently flown into big CBs in bigger aeroplanes with WX radar and being IFR with 2 pilots I very quickly learnt that if I was going up in the vertical convection, I was eventually going to be spat out the other side and be thrown down at a great ROD that in some cases I had no control of, and visa versa. Only way to control the aeroplane in an inadvertent entry into a CB is firstly recognise that you are in a CB and then take your hands and feet off everything or disengage the AP if you’ve got one and sit back and ride it out and be ready for when you get thrown out.
****** Christ - I need to void inadvertently flying with you ever!
Don’t understand what you’re talking about Wawa, a cumuliform cloud looks a lot different to a CB (or a developing or dissapating CB).
The wet season hasn’t even started yet up North, take care everyone
****** and careful from whom you take advise and navigate via Hecter.
The pilot in the left seat was the pilot in command, under supervision of the right seat pilot and the flight was operating under the visual flight rules
I am honestly to see a C210 with a weather radar in my close life of around 35 years of them - about 4-6 had a storm scope that most were u/s and the 1 or 2 that apparently worked were of no real use in the Australian Top End environment that they were never designed to be used.
It’s a heart ripping reality of learning to fly in harsh places. Make it and the experience you gain = priceless. Most do make it but some do come unstuck. Don’t blame these fellas as we don’t know the full story, actually never will. I’d love to say no one ever flies into bad weather deliberately but I know with 230 hours I’m lucky to still be here, and I mean LUCKY!
I’m not quoting from above but yes we do find ourselves in interesting weather no matter what the aircraft has. Be it a 320, Global XRS, Falcon, etc, I’ve seen weather out the window not painting and the other way around. One has to use everything available, window, WXR, ATC, etc..... Wx forecast vs not, blah...
Now to the fellas belting around in GA now, look forward to the day your flying an airliner in the RHS and ask the Capt about his GA days. When a blank look and the answer is i didn’t come from GA I was a cadet, say yes I would have if I could have, whilst at the same time know that nothing can replace the experience fun repeat the experience that GA brings, and I’m not just talking the flying!
I’m not disrespecting the cadet route and I would never suggest disrespecting the Capt, just saying that everyday is different.
I’m not quoting from above but yes we do find ourselves in interesting weather no matter what the aircraft has. Be it a 320, Global XRS, Falcon, etc, I’ve seen weather out the window not painting and the other way around. One has to use everything available, window, WXR, ATC, etc..... Wx forecast vs not, blah...
Now to the fellas belting around in GA now, look forward to the day your flying an airliner in the RHS and ask the Capt about his GA days. When a blank look and the answer is i didn’t come from GA I was a cadet, say yes I would have if I could have, whilst at the same time know that nothing can replace the experience fun repeat the experience that GA brings, and I’m not just talking the flying!
I’m not disrespecting the cadet route and I would never suggest disrespecting the Capt, just saying that everyday is different.
Last edited by Global Aviator; 17th Dec 2017 at 11:54. Reason: Whiskey
My experience is that nothing in the CPL syllabus, and nothing in the industry training once you get a job prepares you adequately for flying in and around weather. I did some time in 210’s in the NT ( pre GPS) and to tell you the truth there was a fair bit of luck/ chance involved in getting through unscathed.
If I was in a position of influence in NT Aviation I would get a group of guys and girls together with varying experience and build a 3 hour course. I’d get of the more experienced jet Captains based there, a brand new CPL, an experienced twin piston pilot and a turbo prop Captain, and someone from ATC. Sit them all in a room for a day to brain storm all the issues that each of them see with NT weather and then build a ppt that can be presented ( for free ) on the first Saturday of every second month at the aero club. Newbies and experienced pilots alike could blow in, buy a beer and learn the basic does and don’ts While having a social time. I’d try to make it an element of the Darwin flying scene/culture.
That way an awareness of some options available ( “unable , pan pan turning left .....) would built into the flying scene. I’m sure most are across it all but it would catch those who aren’t and even experienced folk could learn something about CB’s, local patterns, stats.
Then I would print off and laminate ten NT accident reports and deliver them to each operator to keep in their Ops room.
If I was in a position of influence in NT Aviation I would get a group of guys and girls together with varying experience and build a 3 hour course. I’d get of the more experienced jet Captains based there, a brand new CPL, an experienced twin piston pilot and a turbo prop Captain, and someone from ATC. Sit them all in a room for a day to brain storm all the issues that each of them see with NT weather and then build a ppt that can be presented ( for free ) on the first Saturday of every second month at the aero club. Newbies and experienced pilots alike could blow in, buy a beer and learn the basic does and don’ts While having a social time. I’d try to make it an element of the Darwin flying scene/culture.
That way an awareness of some options available ( “unable , pan pan turning left .....) would built into the flying scene. I’m sure most are across it all but it would catch those who aren’t and even experienced folk could learn something about CB’s, local patterns, stats.
Then I would print off and laminate ten NT accident reports and deliver them to each operator to keep in their Ops room.
What framer has suggested is a great solution, an awareness presentation/informal training about the WX and other challenges that exist in harsh operating environments such as the top end need to be shared in an open forum locally on a regular basis.
It’s easy for all of us to sit here and ramble on about our thoughts and experiences however it’s got to be more than that.
It can also be very difficult for operators to train and make pilots aware of these challenges when they initially hire new pilots, mainly due to time constraints and most operators will only give pilots the minimum training as per their OPS manual/CASA regs before they let them loose.
I live in Darwin and I’d be more than willing to give advice and help (mentoring) to anyone, not only about WX but also about anything related to flying, even job interview advice.
Best to private mail me if you want to contact me.
It’s easy for all of us to sit here and ramble on about our thoughts and experiences however it’s got to be more than that.
It can also be very difficult for operators to train and make pilots aware of these challenges when they initially hire new pilots, mainly due to time constraints and most operators will only give pilots the minimum training as per their OPS manual/CASA regs before they let them loose.
I live in Darwin and I’d be more than willing to give advice and help (mentoring) to anyone, not only about WX but also about anything related to flying, even job interview advice.
Best to private mail me if you want to contact me.
Duck - unless you get an STC for a wing mounted radome and spend $80K, C210 Wx radar is out. A GA operator doing that ? 
Going IFR on single engine pax carrying bush ops is also impossible for various reasons and as someone said 'Mk1 eyeball'. The BOM Wx radar on the phone screen - yes use every trick you can to find the cleaner VFR tracks.
Also letting go of the controls - no. Instead nudge the aircraft into maintaining Va and wings level-ish, and keeping the AH / EADI gyro upright because if that falls over in big rolls and pitches it's game over - you won't be doing any partial panel because your pressure instruments will be mostly unreadable. You also cannot rely on the design's inherent hands-off stability because the pitch/rolls rates at which it recovers will be vastly exceeded by the rates at which new turbulence upsets/divergences hit the aircraft.
Cumuliform covers Cu, LCu, Cb, ie, a lump you can fly around as opposed to Stratiform layered cloud formations that may go on for 200Nm as on the East Coast (and be full of ice and hills).
Framer - good idea but it all needs to go into the Ops Manual Part C and be signed for and flown as part of route and strip training, otherwise it will finish up down behind the back of the fridge. The biggest lesson is to get people to fly at the height that gives them max visibility over or under the scunge, because that gives them the maximum information which is what they need for the next 20Nm. I'd suggest that the two guys in the accident aircraft tried punching into a big ugly white wall at 7000' with no information about what was in front of them.
The test for ATSB with this one is to recommend this sort of training and get political support for it to be required by CASA. CASA would not touch it otherwise because that would imply they were at fault for not requiring it before. I can think of a dozen Wx related commercial GA accidents where no changes were recommended.
Going IFR on single engine pax carrying bush ops is also impossible for various reasons and as someone said 'Mk1 eyeball'. The BOM Wx radar on the phone screen - yes use every trick you can to find the cleaner VFR tracks.Also letting go of the controls - no. Instead nudge the aircraft into maintaining Va and wings level-ish, and keeping the AH / EADI gyro upright because if that falls over in big rolls and pitches it's game over - you won't be doing any partial panel because your pressure instruments will be mostly unreadable. You also cannot rely on the design's inherent hands-off stability because the pitch/rolls rates at which it recovers will be vastly exceeded by the rates at which new turbulence upsets/divergences hit the aircraft.
Cumuliform covers Cu, LCu, Cb, ie, a lump you can fly around as opposed to Stratiform layered cloud formations that may go on for 200Nm as on the East Coast (and be full of ice and hills).
Framer - good idea but it all needs to go into the Ops Manual Part C and be signed for and flown as part of route and strip training, otherwise it will finish up down behind the back of the fridge. The biggest lesson is to get people to fly at the height that gives them max visibility over or under the scunge, because that gives them the maximum information which is what they need for the next 20Nm. I'd suggest that the two guys in the accident aircraft tried punching into a big ugly white wall at 7000' with no information about what was in front of them.
The test for ATSB with this one is to recommend this sort of training and get political support for it to be required by CASA. CASA would not touch it otherwise because that would imply they were at fault for not requiring it before. I can think of a dozen Wx related commercial GA accidents where no changes were recommended.
but it all needs to go into the Ops Manual Part C and be signed for and flown as part of route and strip training,
CASA would not touch it otherwise because that would imply they were at fault for not requiring it before. I can think of a dozen Wx related commercial GA accidents where no changes were recommended
What’s the biggest threat in the NT? It’s not terrain, it’s not short strips with gradients. It’s the tropical weather. What do young pilots cutting their teeth in Darwin like to do? Drink beer, fly and talk crap ( at least that’s what we did a fair while back). Duck Pilot might be able to combine some key points on staying alive with the drinking beer and talking crap elements and not only save a life or two but have some fun doing it.