NT C210
Framer, it's got to be incorporated in a formal way and Part C is that segment of the system that it best fits into, otherwise the information doesn't get imparted in any depth and also eventually drives out the gate to go elsewhere. An analogy would be that you don't do an endorsement by thinking or drinking about it.
We may be talking about different things here wawa.
I’m not talking about official training, or an official response. I’m talking about a bunch of blokes doing something off their own bat in their own time. In an earlier post where I said “if I was a person of influence in Darwin Aviation” I didn’t mean a CASA rep, more like someone who has been there long enough to know a lot of people and was well respected.
Anyway, Kinda thinking out loud.
Have a good night
I’m not talking about official training, or an official response. I’m talking about a bunch of blokes doing something off their own bat in their own time. In an earlier post where I said “if I was a person of influence in Darwin Aviation” I didn’t mean a CASA rep, more like someone who has been there long enough to know a lot of people and was well respected.
Anyway, Kinda thinking out loud.
Have a good night
framer if you are a pilot that has been chugging around the Darwin top end for 10 years or more - you have my respect and certainly capable of a life saving chat with youngsters over a beer or two.
A thing that did happen at the Stuit, in Adrian's day at the bar.
A thing that did happen at the Stuit, in Adrian's day at the bar.
Nah not me Bend alot, I’d be the one seeking advice if I had to fly a piston up there now days. I did a couple of wet seasons then moved on. It was nearly twenty years ago.
It also concerns me that most of the pilots at my workplace do not understand exactly what Va is, or what it allows. Most of them cannot correctly tell me how to recover from a nose low Unusual Attitude (many of them tell me to 'pull through').
There is a C210 course run at the flying school based on Darwin Airport, and it does cover seasonal weather in the NT. As a director of that school, I can assure all that the course has been evolved in light of the recent accident. Not intended as any advertisement, but what Craig alludes to above is already being done, it just requires the junior pilots starting out in the region to tap into the resource. All with a Flight Review thrown in on the 210 (if MOS standard is met...).
Regarding free seminars - we recently convened one of those - inviting one of the Airnorth E170 skippers who has flown up here forever to discuss the local weather systems. He has a keen interest in the meteorology of this region and whilst the material he presented was very informal, it was awesome for the newbies to hear. Shame only a dozen or so turned up... The free GAF seminar we conducted the night before low level forecasts changed forever was well subscribed, though.
We certainly intend to do more of these things, but even after this “wake up call”, we still see resistance to learning because either the cost is too much (what price does one put on professional development?) or even better, apparently further training isn’t required because the MECIR / CPL gained on the east coast is awesome enough...
I also encourage those seeking a job to hang around our facility when they can as a pseudo-base from which they can approach the local operators (this is free!). They can talk all the crap they like with us and each other - maybe to learn something as well as to network. They can even drink beer at the right time of day! Funnily enough, this offer is very rarely taken advantage of, which makes me wonder if there is a paradigm shift in the young pilots today?
Regarding free seminars - we recently convened one of those - inviting one of the Airnorth E170 skippers who has flown up here forever to discuss the local weather systems. He has a keen interest in the meteorology of this region and whilst the material he presented was very informal, it was awesome for the newbies to hear. Shame only a dozen or so turned up... The free GAF seminar we conducted the night before low level forecasts changed forever was well subscribed, though.
We certainly intend to do more of these things, but even after this “wake up call”, we still see resistance to learning because either the cost is too much (what price does one put on professional development?) or even better, apparently further training isn’t required because the MECIR / CPL gained on the east coast is awesome enough...
I also encourage those seeking a job to hang around our facility when they can as a pseudo-base from which they can approach the local operators (this is free!). They can talk all the crap they like with us and each other - maybe to learn something as well as to network. They can even drink beer at the right time of day! Funnily enough, this offer is very rarely taken advantage of, which makes me wonder if there is a paradigm shift in the young pilots today?
With regards to the Stuit, the rent that the DIA want may be prohibitive for a small business to operate there these days - although I may be totally incorrect. Anyone with the appropriate business approvals/licence could walk in today and be doing good business tomorrow, not only in alcohol sales but also selling meals and lots of coffees. It’s been well maintained since it’s closure and everything still works. The DIA still rents the facility out for private functions, not sure why they haven’t encouraged a business to set up permanently.
Gun, give them the theory and if they understand it get them up and teach them to fly it. Come to think of it, questions about V-n diagrams would be good for initial interviews.
Framer, we are; change happens through legislation or market forces such as insurance premiums (or 'leadership', although in GA that is term is irrelevant). Your suggested informal approach happens all the time but illustrates my point - it partly fills the training gap that exists within the company between the induction checkout and the realities of line ops 100'sNm away in the bush. But getting pissed is fun, and there's babes.
Bear, the paradigm shift ? We're almost 1/5 of the way into the 21st century, and the modern 300 hour CPL wasn't trained by some hard old dog with 9000 hours on iced up DC3's, one sunk U-Boat, and 3 ex-wives, so they never got taught how to look for and pick up every dirty rat-cunning little trick to add to their bag of luck.
Your Wx courses sound good, but you need to convince the insurance companies and CASA to make them a requirement and the best way I suggest is via a beefed up and actually enforced CAR219, because the consequent flying program automatically captures the enroute Wx aspects. When I was a bosspella-pailote I rigorously taught and documented CAR219 route and strip training, and guess what - even our FOI didn't know what it was. I'd suggest that neither ATSB or CASA will even mention 219 and its underlying Act head of power (CAA28B-something) in relation to this prang, and if you try and push it you'll encounter 'the limits to what is practical'.
Duck, yes it would be a good business if the rent was negotiated to a practical number, since there are a lot more people working at YPDN than in the 90's.
Framer, we are; change happens through legislation or market forces such as insurance premiums (or 'leadership', although in GA that is term is irrelevant). Your suggested informal approach happens all the time but illustrates my point - it partly fills the training gap that exists within the company between the induction checkout and the realities of line ops 100'sNm away in the bush. But getting pissed is fun, and there's babes.
Bear, the paradigm shift ? We're almost 1/5 of the way into the 21st century, and the modern 300 hour CPL wasn't trained by some hard old dog with 9000 hours on iced up DC3's, one sunk U-Boat, and 3 ex-wives, so they never got taught how to look for and pick up every dirty rat-cunning little trick to add to their bag of luck.
Your Wx courses sound good, but you need to convince the insurance companies and CASA to make them a requirement and the best way I suggest is via a beefed up and actually enforced CAR219, because the consequent flying program automatically captures the enroute Wx aspects. When I was a bosspella-pailote I rigorously taught and documented CAR219 route and strip training, and guess what - even our FOI didn't know what it was. I'd suggest that neither ATSB or CASA will even mention 219 and its underlying Act head of power (CAA28B-something) in relation to this prang, and if you try and push it you'll encounter 'the limits to what is practical'.
Duck, yes it would be a good business if the rent was negotiated to a practical number, since there are a lot more people working at YPDN than in the 90's.
or 'leadership', although in GA that is term is irrelevant).
Regarding free seminars - we recently convened one of those - inviting one of the Airnorth E170 skippers who has flown up here forever to discuss the local weather systems.
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ATSB have just released the preliminary report into the C210 breakup inflight at Albany WA, the same week as the NT C210 accident.
Check out the ATSB website.
pPrune won't allow me to post the URL.
It shows how important Va is. Very low on a C210 considering their cruise speed is about 50 knots quicker than their Va when lightly loaded.
Check out the ATSB website.
pPrune won't allow me to post the URL.
It shows how important Va is. Very low on a C210 considering their cruise speed is about 50 knots quicker than their Va when lightly loaded.
Framer, yes Flying Bear has but he sounds like he is an instructor of some sort so he would have done a course which would have taught a bit of how to at least act normal. We both know what the rest of GA (and above) is like.
Back to this accident, yes consider Va but also consider flying off the edge of the Vn diagram due wandering into Wx-related turbulence, which I suggest is the case here. I took the CAR219 solution further and looked up the CASA manuals on AOC certification (AOCM) and enforcement (Enforcement Manual EM and Surveillance Manual SM) to see to what level CASA expects AOC holders to currently conform to CAR219. The AOCM has a fleeting mention and the rest of the range of documents and instruments don't even mention it. Unlike the long-dead ASSP, the EM and SM don't hold anyone including CASA to any particular standard, hence no one including CASA can ever be criticised.
Therefore I'd suggest that nothing is going to change, CAR219 won't get mentioned in anything other than the NT Coroner's Report and then only if 'someone' pushes it. The closest we'll get to a CAR219 solution to this entrenched problem is the current default of an existing company pilot perhaps with no instructional experience, no multicrew experience and without any training plan, flying 'ICUS' with a new pilot on what is effectively reduced to a series of area familiarisation flights. That, despite Framer's esky and Bear's seminars, is why every few years someone will fall out of a big black cloud in bits.
Back to this accident, yes consider Va but also consider flying off the edge of the Vn diagram due wandering into Wx-related turbulence, which I suggest is the case here. I took the CAR219 solution further and looked up the CASA manuals on AOC certification (AOCM) and enforcement (Enforcement Manual EM and Surveillance Manual SM) to see to what level CASA expects AOC holders to currently conform to CAR219. The AOCM has a fleeting mention and the rest of the range of documents and instruments don't even mention it. Unlike the long-dead ASSP, the EM and SM don't hold anyone including CASA to any particular standard, hence no one including CASA can ever be criticised.
Therefore I'd suggest that nothing is going to change, CAR219 won't get mentioned in anything other than the NT Coroner's Report and then only if 'someone' pushes it. The closest we'll get to a CAR219 solution to this entrenched problem is the current default of an existing company pilot perhaps with no instructional experience, no multicrew experience and without any training plan, flying 'ICUS' with a new pilot on what is effectively reduced to a series of area familiarisation flights. That, despite Framer's esky and Bear's seminars, is why every few years someone will fall out of a big black cloud in bits.
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Coffins are carried in those aircraft all the time no problem.
The aircraft was believed to be operated beyond limit pilots presumably in cloud with no instrument ratings (couldn’t get away from it) plane ends up with nose pointing at ground, they pop out the bottom see a large mass of the Northern Territory rushing up to meet them, pull back, snap go the wings and some tail plane
Fuselage lands almost vertically and dreadful compressed, wings 900 meters from fuselage
The aircraft was believed to be operated beyond limit pilots presumably in cloud with no instrument ratings (couldn’t get away from it) plane ends up with nose pointing at ground, they pop out the bottom see a large mass of the Northern Territory rushing up to meet them, pull back, snap go the wings and some tail plane
Fuselage lands almost vertically and dreadful compressed, wings 900 meters from fuselage
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I just read that, so traagic☹
i only hope that future inexperienced pilots can learn something of this event. The NT is no place for any A/C (especially a C210) when TS conditions are like that, I even have my personel radar on high when operating in such environments avoiding them like the plague and that's in a high perf jet often at the high 40'sK ft!
i only hope that future inexperienced pilots can learn something of this event. The NT is no place for any A/C (especially a C210) when TS conditions are like that, I even have my personel radar on high when operating in such environments avoiding them like the plague and that's in a high perf jet often at the high 40'sK ft!
Learning comes from accumulated corporate knowledge within the company's documented instructional material plus first hand experience flying around in/near the scungey stuff under experienced supervision (both lacking in this accident).
I used to teach what I called 'maximum information flying' ie. height and heading intended to feed your 360-degree swiveling head the most amount of information about where you should head next. That could be anywhere up to 90 degrees off track and anything between cloud base and 200'AGL, with the main requirements being to see and assess the furthest possible distance ahead and around plus maintaining an open escape route out the back door when it closed off around and in front. Your head doesn't stop moving.
The point is that you are going 10 times faster than the weather, and if you don't like it you can just bolt out the back door and it won't catch you. Lose the back door ..? That's when the problems start.
